The definition of a McDojo!!

[Daniel Sullivan]

Also true. This begs the question: how deep does the rot go?

It's interesting to consider: at some point someone who had good training, must have made a decision to be satisfied with giving his own students poor training. I wonder who is responsible for that?

This is one of the problems with large class sizes. Here's a possible progression:

1985: A decent school with a well thought of master just exploded with the ninja craze (I actually remember the ninja craze), the Karate Kid has just premiered, and there are now more students than adequate personnel level to effectively teach them.

Two years pass: Students were hurried on to black belt and 'rewarded' with teaching responsibility that they were not adequately prepared for. The master never has the time to go through with his new assistant instructors and get them up to speed on their technique.

One year passes: The young BB's have learned their first dan form and have been teaching for a year. They hit second dan. Now they get to teach more advanced students to help them get to BB level.

Two more years pass: The young BB's have now learned their second dan form and perhaps a weapon form or two were added for demo purposes. They've now been teaching on some level for three years. Its time for third dan.

Three more years pass: Its been six years since they received their beautiful gold stitched blackbelt with one gold stripe. The now no-longer-young BB's have gotten to a point where some have quit, leaving the dedicated few. The master is very pleased with these two or three remaining students. Such students are loyal and show rigor. They have stayed the course and been teaching now for six years. Several classes of black belts have been promoted up through these student's classes, occasional appearances by the master, who only teaches the black belt class now: new forms and weapon forms, and all sorts of demonstrations and promotions. Now, the dojo has a blackbelt club, and beyond that, a masters club, which such stalwart students as these two or three certainly deserve to be in. These students are now considered part of the staff and their pictures adorn the walls of the lobby. They're teaching several classes a week, including assisting with the blackbelt class. They know their third dan form and three weapon forms. How can anyone not promote such fine folks to fourth dan?

Six months later: These fourth dan students are now able to sign blackbelt certificates. The master is not young and the school has really worn him out. One of his stalwarts is now pretty much running the day to day while the master is spending more and more time away. He is a grandmaster, so he maintains a comfortable distance between himself and the colored belt students. About this time, one of his stalwarts approaches him with a bold new initiative: a new location! She loves teaching and wants to open up her own school. She has the rank and by KKW rules, she can now sign the dan certs. The new school will be her own, but the old master will be her grandmaster and receive a royalty. The new school will carry the name of the original. The master likes this idea. Expansion begins.

1995: The Old Master Martial Arts II has opened up and business is booming. The location is perfect; close enough to the old school that he won't have to drive too far to visit, but far enough away that it won't canibalize the old school's student body. Because she is doing so well, she has the same problem that her old master had: no personnel and tons of students. She needs black belts!

Two years later: The new school finally graduates its first class of blackbelts, and both the old master and his young protege are pleased. The old master is so pleased, in fact that he approaches his most loyal student, one of the two or three stalwarts, about taking on the Old Master I dojang full time. Old master himself is ready to run his operation from afar. His third stalwart has just opened up Old Master III. Most loyal stalwart bows deeply, accepting this great honor.

2000: The new milenium is upon us and in a special ceremony, Old master bestows the fifth dan upon his three stalwarts. His loyal man at Old Master I really has it well in hand, Old Master II has stayed solid and Old Master III is booming. With the rank of master, each of these young masters now has fifteen years of taekwondo experience! Old master passes on the torch and ties their newly stitched black belts with five stripes onto their waist. Special "Master Young" doboks, I, II, and III are ordered in for the three. Also at this ceremony, several of the bb's brought up by the young masters are now testing for third dan. Old master has inspected them here and there and been present for their tests, but nothing more. A wonderful reception is had afterward, compete with speaches. Old Master has a surprise too: his teacher, Very Old Master is in town and speaks for the assembled classes of all three schools about the importance of tradition and lineage. Very Old Master then surprises everyone by presenting Old Master with his ninth dan!

The reception comes to a close and Young Master I, II, and III wave as Old Master rides off into the sunset. The torch has been passed. They're now the masters.

And that: is how you get ten, fifteen, and twenty year practitioners who don't know their art well enough to transmit it. Nobody in that story was greedy or particularly money hungry. Old Master isn't particularly wealthy, but he does alright. He has a strong love of the martial arts, as do his students. Why did he fail to teach them the subtleties of the art? Very simple: life got in the way. The reality of business got in the way. Too much, too fast.

No decision to dumb down the curriculum was ever made. Old master simply assumes that his young masters have "got it" and that their students are "getting it" from them. This is how I believe the rot got so deep.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know a bit about the Songahm system as my niece practices it. They do not have a poom belt. A dan rank is a dan rank. Obviously in a well run dojo, the children know their place and would never dream of correcting an adult unless they have been specifically asked to teach or help out.

The Songahm forms are pretty straight forward. They are athletically challenging to perform compared to Chang Hon or Palgwe or Tae Geuk, but by and large they weren't designed to have any "hidden" applications. What you see is what you get.

Yes, but it shouldn't be a secret that a punch is supposed to be against an opponent and that blocks are supposed to be strong enough to deflect an attack. Weak kicks should be obviously ineffective. Do the songham forms not have even a rudimentary boon hae?

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

This is one of the problems with large class sizes. Here's a possible progression:

1985: A decent school with a well thought of master just exploded with the ninja craze (I actually remember the ninja craze), the Karate Kid has just premiered, and there are now more students than adequate personnel level to effectively teach them.

I think we can stop right here. There is the root of the problem. Should have turned some students away. never should have gone beyond this.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Now that sounds like every major Dojo/Dojang in the US.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think we can stop right here. There is the root of the problem. Should have turned some students away. never should have gone beyond this.

And in my long time line, I never even addressed the added features and benefits of after school programs and summer camp, both with pickup and drop off, which so many large schools offer.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, but it shouldn't be a secret that a punch is supposed to be against an opponent and that blocks are supposed to be strong enough to deflect an attack. Weak kicks should be obviously ineffective. Do the songham forms not have even a rudimentary boon hae?

Daniel

The application is the obvious one. A block is a block, a punch is a punch. No throws or locks implied in the movements as is the case with karate forms. I don't know that this is necessarily an indictment of the Songahm system though since the TKD school that teaches boon hae is a real rarity. TKD is what it is. I'm very glad there seems to be a real grassroots attempt to add some applications work back into TKD. This is one of the reasons I participate on this board.

Back to the weakness of the boy's form in the video.... Of course the ATA doesn't do itself any favors with things like "block" teaching. In schools that use the method, you could literally have the white belts learning the yellow belt form first without having learned the white belt or orange belt pattern. The idea is to make it easier for one instructor to teach a large number of students at once without having to adapt (too much) to the level of the students. I don't know if this boy was brought up under block training or not, but as we all agree, his technique and understanding just isn't up to a credible standard for a black belt, much less a 3rd dan.

Black belt promotions do seem easy to come by in the ATA and it's close cousin, the ITA. (Sorry, I know there's some ITA people participating on MT, no insult is intended by this observation. It's just the truth as I see it.) The local ITA school in my town has a head instructor 5th dan who can't possibly be older than 30. Perhaps he has been training for a long time, but IMO 5th dan is a full, verging on master instructor level. It takes some personal maturity to become an excellent teacher, and yes that does that seasoning.

And of course we know the ATA awards a lot of black belts to children. Have they "earned" them? Sometimes, and sometimes not. My niece for example has good technique and knows the material inside and out. Could she defend herself against an adult attacker intent on harming her? Not on her life! Such is the difference between her school and mine. I do not promote anyone under 16 to black belt (in fact I rarely take juvenile students and my youngest black belt student is 24) because I believe a dan rank should indicate some level of fighting ability. You don't get a belt in my class just for attendence or good behavior or for having 'awesome attitude'. I am not bragging, just adding my thoughts to this discussion.

I don't have a commercial school because of my feelings about martial arts and how they should be practiced. If I wanted or needed to make money from my school, I obviously could NOT run things in the same fashion as I currently do. I accept this reality. I don't believe you can have your cake and eat it too in this respect.

 

[terryl965]

I believe you can have the cake and eat it to, just relize that they are junior BB and at the time of 15 and then they start to learn adult material and retest for an adult BB. With this in mind you can have both and make money from it. I tend to be a believer in one staying within the school for twenty years. My average students stay with me for 16 years so if done right it can work.

 

[davedaylight]

As far as the OP I don't really see anything that jumps out to me as saying that those schools are McDojo's. OP, if you could please explain what you saw on their site, cause all I see is what looks like a successful martial arts school (although I was a bit surprised at the extent of their Pro Shop). Their schools were mostly on the other side of St. Louis so I never checked out their school when I was looking for a martial arts school last year. I'd say from looking at that website that their school is different than mine, probably a different focus than mine (like more sports oriented than self defense), but nothing that makes me believe that they don't teach good martial arts.

I saw that video posted in another thread before, it was shocking.

For me personally, I can't really say what would make a "McDojo", all I can say are the things that I look out for when I've checked out different martial arts schools.

1. Will they let me try out a class for free before I decide whether I want to join. (for me that's a big one, I understand I'll probably have to sign a liability waiver--but if the school has good training and a good system then they should happily let someone check it out to see if it's for them)

2. Contracts, I just don't like them--I know a lot of good schools out there use them, but I just don't like them and try to avoid them if I can. For example, when I did martial arts back in my teens, I had to sign a contract for the school that I was taking classes at--and since I wasn't 18 yet I had to get my parents to sign. Due to certain issues that arose over the following 10 months I no longer felt like training and advised my instructor of that--they brought up the contract and said that I had to pay for 2 more months of classes, and that if I didn't they would have to go after my parents for the money.

3. Are they pushy, and what I mean by that are they trying to sell you something that's not needed. One of the schools my dad & I checked out last year the instructor talked to us before one of his classes, and before we even had a chance to check out the school was trying to get us to sign a contract. He didn't offer for us to take a class before deciding, or ask us to watch a class--seemed like all he wanted was our money. I'm not against your instructor encouraging you to buy something, but how they go about it says a lot. My instructor here has lately been encouraging everyone to get their own set of sparring equipment, but they haven't required everyone to get it. We do have a limited amount of "community gear", but even though we clean it after each time it's used it's tons better to have your own.

4. How is the technique? I look at the instructor when he shows a technique--if it's sloppy, run away. I don't really pay too much attention to a white belt or the next belt or maybe even two up, but the blue belts (the middle ranks) and up to the ranks right below black--those are the ones I pay the most attention to. The lower ranks are still learning the basics: balance, foot position, correct chambering--if their's looks good it's probably because they're quick learner or have taken martial arts before. But if their technique looks sloppy and they're a mid to high rank, then something is not getting trained right in that school. And if you've got some experience you can often tell the difference between someone who's struggling with a new kick and someone who is just flopping his foot out into the air--heck my dad could tell and he hadn't had any martial arts training.

5. Demeanor & character. To me martial arts isn't just about training the body, but the mind and the spirit also. You've got to have strength of character as a martial artist or you may become more of a bully than a martial artist. So whenever I check out a school I look to see how the instructor treats their students and how the students treat the instructor and each other.

 

[BrandonLucas]

The thing to me about having your cake and eating it too is that you can certainly eat the cake, but not the whole thing.

There are going to have to be some sacrifices made in terms of what you want and what you need to do in order to run a successful school. While you feel that a Jr. BB rank is not a valid rank, it could be a necessary evil in order to have enough students to run the school.

To me, the way sacrifices are justified is that they are explained outright to the public...i.e. telling little Johnny's parents that since he's 14 and knows the cirriculum well and can perform the techniques flawlessly, he has earned the right to be a Jr. BB, which does not mean that he's a full 1st dan BB, rather it's like a probationary status until he reaches 16.

To go the other way and become a total belt factory is the way of the McDojo, which is what you want to steer clear of. There is a balance that can be acheived, but it all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to the demand of the public. Not enough sacrifice means that your school may not run, and too much sacrifice means that you're in danger of becoming a McDojo.

Just like the art that you're teaching, there is a balance in the marketing of it to the public. To find the balance in either one is to be truly successful.

 

[dancingalone]

I believe you can have the cake and eat it to, just relize that they are junior BB and at the time of 15 and then they start to learn adult material and retest for an adult BB. With this in mind you can have both and make money from it. I tend to be a believer in one staying within the school for twenty years. My average students stay with me for 16 years so if done right it can work.

I just don't believe it can be done with my curriculum. For me to award someone a black belt goes beyond a checklist of forms and kicks and punches for someone to perform. That's just the shell of the martial art. I'm looking for an understanding of balance, rooting, acceleration, and structure: key facets that allow you to master any type of martial art or to adapt what you learn from me into any situation. And you have to be able to explain it. Why did this throw work? Why is it that you can punch harder than me even though I am bigger and stronger?

These are mental concepts that I'm convinced children just don't have the maturity to grasp much less be able to articulate. I'm not interested in someone parroting back to me my lesson plans. I want them to understand the concepts that will serve them anywhere. One of my black belts should be able to walk into any dojo and project a palpable presence when they are on the mat. Sure they might not know whatever technique is being worked, but they should be able to pick it up relatively quickly because bio-mechanically they are efficient and sound to begin with.

 

[dancingalone]

The thing to me about having your cake and eating it too is that you can certainly eat the cake, but not the whole thing.

There are going to have to be some sacrifices made in terms of what you want and what you need to do in order to run a successful school. While you feel that a Jr. BB rank is not a valid rank, it could be a necessary evil in order to have enough students to run the school.

To me, the way sacrifices are justified is that they are explained outright to the public...i.e. telling little Johnny's parents that since he's 14 and knows the cirriculum well and can perform the techniques flawlessly, he has earned the right to be a Jr. BB, which does not mean that he's a full 1st dan BB, rather it's like a probationary status until he reaches 16.

To go the other way and become a total belt factory is the way of the McDojo, which is what you want to steer clear of. There is a balance that can be acheived, but it all depends on what you're willing to sacrifice to the demand of the public. Not enough sacrifice means that your school may not run, and too much sacrifice means that you're in danger of becoming a McDojo.

Just like the art that you're teaching, there is a balance in the marketing of it to the public. To find the balance in either one is to be truly successful.

Good thoughts. For me, what you've described is described above is one justifying awarding a dan to a child when properly a child should never be given one in the first place. I understand I am in the minority on this, but I will never award such a thing as a child's black belt or a probationary black belt. It's not a sticker given for attendence. In my book you're either a dan rank or not. What's wrong with wearing a brown belt anyway?

 

[terryl965]

I just don't believe it can be done with my curriculum. For me to award someone a black belt goes beyond a checklist of forms and kicks and punches for someone to perform. That's just the shell of the martial art. I'm looking for an understanding of balance, rooting, acceleration, and structure: key facets that allow you to master any type of martial art or to adapt what you learn from me into any situation. And you have to be able to explain it. Why did this throw work? Why is it that you can punch harder than me even though I am bigger and stronger?

These are mental concepts that I'm convinced children just don't have the maturity to grasp much less be able to articulate. I'm not interested in someone parroting back to me my lesson plans. I want them to understand the concepts that will serve them anywhere. One of my black belts should be able to walk into any dojo and project a palpable presence when they are on the mat. Sure they might not know whatever technique is being worked, but they should be able to pick it up relatively quickly because bio-mechanically they are efficient and sound to begin with.

I completely agree with you my curriculum is way beyond kick and punches but for little Johnny who has been with me for 6 years and now is 13 a Junior BB allows him to still grow and relize that when he gets to be 16 he needs to fullfil the adult requirements or he stay a Junior BB until he does. Like some have mention as long as you tell little johnny parents that if they become a BB until they reach 16 and retest he is consider a junior BB. I am sure we are saying the same thing just maybe different wording.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Good thoughts. For me, what you've described is described above is one justifying awarding a dan to a child when properly a child should never be given one in the first place. I understand I am in the minority on this, but I will never award such a thing as a child's black belt or a probationary black belt. It's not a sticker given for attendence. In my book you're either a dan rank or not. What's wrong with wearing a brown belt anyway?

I don't see anything wrong with a brown belt, myself, and I'm quite sure most serious martial artists don't, either.

The problem is that unless you can figure out a way to filter out those who are serious and those that aren't, in order for a business to thrive, some sacrifices need to be made.

Not that the whole blackbelt thing is one of them, either...I'm sure there are ways around giving a kid any blackbelt at all and keeping them interested, and I'm sure other schools have been just as successful. But I'm also willing to bet that they had to sacrifice something else that they wanted to keep in the agenda or out of the cirriculum in order to generate business.

Each person should decide what they're willing to not budge on when making a business plan, and, if what they plan doesn't work, then they need to make the decision on whether to become flexible on what they do and don't budge on or choose to do something else.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As far as the OP I don't really see anything that jumps out to me as saying that those schools are McDojo's. OP, if you could please explain what you saw on their site, cause all I see is what looks like a successful martial arts school (although I was a bit surprised at the extent of their Pro Shop). Their schools were mostly on the other side of St. Louis so I never checked out their school when I was looking for a martial arts school last year. I'd say from looking at that website that their school is different than mine, probably a different focus than mine (like more sports oriented than self defense), but nothing that makes me believe that they don't teach good martial arts.

I asked this very question on page three. Others asked about it on pages one and two.

How is this hilarious? What is it about their masters and black belt that makes them a Mcdojo? The one picture of a master doing any technique was Linda Roth executing a front kick, and it looked quite good. Some of them have been featured on the cover of MA trade publications; not that this makes them any better, but it certainly is an accomplishment. What is it about the testing requirements that you feel is amiss? Please clarify your statement.

Frankly, I didn't see anything that would turn me off to this school just perusing the website. You were already asked in the very first response what your problem with this school was, but you've yet to respond on this thread at all.

Clarify your reasons for even starting this thread. If you cannot, then you shouldn't have started it in the first place, as all you're doing is degrading another school with no specific reason as to why.

Eight pages in and the OP still hasn't answered this question.

Daniel

 

[AMP-RYU]

I asked this very question on page three. Others asked about it on pages one and two.

Eight pages in and the OP still hasn't answered this question.

Daniel

I probably just have a different prospective in the martial arts than this school does....and I appologize if I have offended anyone. I think alot of my reason would be their contracts and quickness to sue someone who feels that martial arts just isnt for them! Also the training that their student recieve is far below the standard and the amount of training their students recieve is below standard...or maybe my association is just above the standard...I dont know. But if you look at their student handbook you'll see what I mean...maybe Im just used to a far superior association! Also I have personally competed against many of their students over the years and it embarasses me to think that they train in the same style as me. I also have had many students over the years come to my school and completely bad mouth this organization after being sued of course about the training their children or selves had recieved and believe me it wasn't pretty. Just check out their student manual and decide if you think they are learning what they should be. http://worldtaekwondo.com/handbook.htm
I'm sure my opinion is different than others but my opinion is exactly that..my opinion! Again Im sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[AMP-RYU]

Agian I apologize and just thought what I saw was aweful but like I said maybe it is the standard, I should have never posted this thread and wish I hadnt. I just wanted to share how little some schools teach to get to Black Belt in just one year! That is all if contract stating you will recieve a black belt in 12 months is not a mcdojo im sorry and I have learned what to and not to post here Im sorry again.

 

[HM2PAC]

YounWhaMann wrote:

Agian I apologize and just thought what I saw was aweful but like I said maybe it is the standard, I should have never posted this thread and wish I hadnt. I just wanted to share how little some schools teach to get to Black Belt in just one year! That is all if contract stating you will recieve a black belt in 12 months is not a mcdojo im sorry and I have learned what to and not to post here Im sorry again.

1st, there is nothing about the site that you posted that says anything about being a BB in 1 year.

2nd, Cut the drama.

 

[davedaylight]

Sorry, but I don't see anything on their website about being able to get a black belt within 1 yr, I also don't see anything on there about contracts or anything. But honestly the absolute best martial arts school in the world could have the worst website in the world and the worst martial arts school could have the best website. It's marketing and public relations, they're showing what they want us to see--I try to not judge a school based off their website.

I know you live in the same region as them (I recently moved to Phoenix from the St. Louis area) so you'd be more likely to come in contact with people from their school. But we don't know anything other than their website, and it's possible that you found something on their website that I haven't been able to find (I'll admit that I haven't read everything on every page of the site).

And honestly you can't believe everything you hear, not saying that what you've heard isn't true, but as I'm sure we all have experienced at some point in our lives some people will lie or stretch the truth. Some people when they have a bad experience (which could be nothing worse than a misunderstanding or simple miscommunication) will badmouth the other party to no end with all kinds of stuff that may or may not be true.

I'm just trying to give my position (and I think a lot of the other posters position), we don't know any of the parties involved--not the school and none of the people that you've met who've had a bad experience, so we are in no place to give any sound judgment on whether or not this school is a "McDojo". Sure it looks like their training is a bit lighter than mine and their focus is a bit different, but that doesn't mean that they're a bad school.

 

[Tez3]

Ah go on , a wee bit of drama never did anyone any harm!!

 

[terryl965]

Well here we go again