What if the art you love is the sport you hate?

[terryl965]

Matt just keep doing what you do and forget about everybody else.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you really love you art, you must contract a severe case of TB. That's 'True Believer'.

I don't train to get a belt (I know, one see's the 5th dan and things 'what the heck'?) I actually didn't start training again for the belt. I didn't care. But my teacher, a 7th dan Korean, kind of push me into it. And he didn't get a bunch of money, I assure you.

As for sport, I consider Olympic style TKD as, well like boxing, except they use their feet. Some of the methods are very interesting and I do intend on picking them up to add to my tool set (same for boxing, I definatly DO have some of those methods in my tool set!)

So I don't hate it being a sport. It can stay there. Traditional TKD, or SBD, I'll stick with.

Deaf

 

[YoungMan]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.

 

[terryl965]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.

Well that is up to each instructor, If you only teach two classes a week for .45 minutes, then it could take you that long.If you come 6 days a week and train and I mean train not stand there and talk you will probaly test aloy quicker. I know all of my BB learn alot more then three simple kicks and they need to understand each and every poomsae plus one steps and all the SD that we teach all in all well over a million techs. That takes time, I want serious students and devoted ones at that.

 

[exile]

Well that is up to each instructor, If you only teach two classes a week for .45 minutes, then it could take you that long.If you come 6 days a week and train and I mean train not stand there and talk you will probaly test aloy quicker. I know all of my BB learn alot more then three simple kicks and they need to understand each and every poomsae plus one steps and all the SD that we teach all in all well over a million techs. That takes time, I want serious students and devoted ones at that.

Well put, Terry. There is a huge range of both ability and initiative in MA students, just as with any other kind of student.

In my department at OSU, some people are working on their Ph.D.s, with papers already published in major journals, by their fourth year. Others are still working on their dissertations ten years after starting the program. And of the latter group, there are indeed a number who will finish and do an excellent job... but for whatever reason, they just move much... more... slowly...

One of the nice things about the MAs is that they are, in the good schools anyway, self-paced. But the flip side is, you can only go as fast as you can go. Personal crises or major life changes, shifts of interest, physical or technical problems that slow you down to a crawl... all of those things can push the black belt test way beyond the 'normal' 4–5 year range. Older students may take a good deal longer. And if the instructor is picky and demanding enough to make 6 or 7 years the average instead, it probably means that the belt you earn in that school is going to have a lot more clout in terms of real knowledge that one you earned somewhere else much faster, all other things being equal. Someone who has a smaller school with dedicated students who are focused on the task, not the belt, is probably someone who runs an ace program. It's not going to be for everyone, but then again, there isn't really anything that's for everyone.

 

[IcemanSK]

There is a niche being filled by these money first, blackbelt factory schools, and that niche is the I-am-too-lazy-to-earn-it-but-I-still-want-it-so-give-it-to-me segment of society. They want to be a "blackbelt" so they can brag and try to cover up the fact that they are really lazy and they couldn't cut it in a real school, so they pay their way through and end up wearing the belt while lacking the skills. Then they get the crap kicked out of them, their contest posted to youtube, and TKD labelled as being ineffective :lol:. Thank goodness for people like Terryl965, there is still hope for good TKD in this world.

I disagree that it's laziness on the part of the student. Belt factories are solely the design of greedy instructors who set the bar too low. Unfortuneately, (no, I can't spell this morning) MA is not like teaching violin. When one plays a violin, if the note is bad, even the untrain ear knows it! The average person doesn't know what MA "should be like" so they don't have an expectation of quality. Plus, many parents figure, "it keeps jr. busy, so there's no harm." It's usually only after the instructor McDojang X ticks off those parents (or the parents talk to parents from other schools) that the parents seek out another school.

I had a young student who received a BB from another school. Respect was the only thing he had down well. His techniques were at about my 7th gup level. I told him that we would get his techniques to the level they needed to be. He didn't understand: he was a BB, after all. It's not his fault, nor his parent's fault. His former instructor set the bar too low.

 

[SageGhost83]

I disagree that it's laziness on the part of the student. Belt factories are solely the design of greedy instructors who set the bar too low. Unfortuneately, (no, I can't spell this morning) MA is not like teaching violin. When one plays a violin, if the note is bad, even the untrain ear knows it! The average person doesn't know what MA "should be like" so they don't have an expectation of quality. Plus, many parents figure, "it keeps jr. busy, so there's no harm." It's usually only after the instructor McDojang X ticks off those parents (or the parents talk to parents from other schools) that the parents seek out another school.

I had a young student who received a BB from another school. Respect was the only thing he had down well. His techniques were at about my 7th gup level. I told him that we would get his techniques to the level they needed to be. He didn't understand: he was a BB, after all. It's not his fault, nor his parent's fault. His former instructor set the bar too low.

I see what you are saying, and no, don't worry about the spelling one bit, I understand you perfectly :asian:. I think that it falls somewhere in the middle. Yes, blackbelt factories are created by the instructors, however, those blackbelt factories wouldn't be able to thrive if there weren't enough lazy students or parents around to sign up for them to take the easy way out. You raise another good point in that some folks sign up and they really don't know what the school is about or it is their first time so they don't know what they are looking for. However, the promise, no the guarantee, of a black belt within a short time is something that definitely plays into that decision - there is a reason why schools advertise that they are a "black belt club" and such, they know exactly what they are doing...and they know exactly what type of student that they are attracting. Some students are lazy, and some instructors are willing to rush students through the belts just to keep their confidence up and to please the parents who would otherwise wonder why their child isn't a black belt yet despite their child's god awful technique :jaw-dropping::lfao:. So, I adjust my original post - there is a niche being filled, the I-am-too-lazy-to-earn-it-but-I-still-want-it-so-give-it-to-me segment of society coupled with the desperate-to-make-a-buck-and-retain-students instructors.

 

[YoungMan]

Because traditional Taekwondo doesn't make money. It's too hard, demands too much of you, requires too much dedication, isn't flashy, and requires commitment. How can a teacher who cares more about money than integrity market Taekwondo to children (which is where the profit is) when they have to practice basics constantly, learn proper manners and etiquette, not expect instant gratification, and work hard?
They come in expecting to learn what they see on TV or believe they can be an Olympic champion because the guy running the dojang tells them they could be an Olympic champion. He has to, because otherwise they'll go somewhere else.
It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.

 

[SageGhost83]

It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.

Yes, I agree. I venture to guess that ITF Chang Hon would be the main style of TKD and there would probably be far less TKD schools, or at least not a TKD school on every street corner. These days TKD schools are like liquor stores - no matter where you are, you can always find one :boing1:.

 

[matt.m]

No offense, but one year per color belt rank is way too long. Two to three months per color belt rank is sufficient. It should not take 10 years to earn 1st Dan. That is too long and most students, even dedicated ones, would not wait for that.

Everyone wants to "Chase the belt". However the longer you spend between white to yellow the better you are at the fundamentals. Then belt ranking can pick up.

Not only that but the thing is Hapkido is only once a week, I teach Judo 2x a week. Plus in MSK if you go to class 2x a week it takes 5 months just to go from white to yellow.

Sorry, we are more hardcore and just plain not in a rush for a belt color.

 

[kidswarrior]

Not a TKD guy, but wanted to add my experience anyway in hopes it would be relevant. A couple decades ago, I began a business venture with some friends. They sold me on it as a way to help people, pursue something I was passionate about, and still make some good money.

Long story short, it started off that way, and I was pumped--working 20 hours a day, etc. Then, the economy took a turn, the guy who controlled the purse strings suddenly turned into scrooge and began to make changes to our 'cut' on business generated, and I found myself having to pursue the almighty dollar just so my family could eat. Lost sight of the passion that had brought me there in the first place, and it became all about the money. Now for some of my former friends, it also became an opportunity to get rich by cutting corners--some of them at my expense. Cut to the chase: 10 years later, ended up bankrupt and disillusioned.

What's the moral of the story? I should have always kept the passion front and center. Then if/when it became apparent the pursuit was/could no longer be about that, would have known it was time to move on. In MA, if we have solid, realistic expectations, a passion for reaching/teaching the art the way we believe it should be, and let the money/numbers take care of themselves, it'll go the right way. If it becomes about money or ego for the instructor/owner, then enter the McDojo and kiddies-as-boss programs.

 

[Manny]

You are right!! I would love to find an old kwan, I mean one kwan where martiality and self defense is the whole thing besides poomses. I was a JiDo Kwan practiciones till my firsth dan blak belt, now I'ma training in another dojan a good one I have to admit but is not close to what I want, SELF DEFENSE.

Manny

 

[matt.m]

Manny I am quite happy that you found a new suitable school. Just remember every block in poomsea and hyung are without a doubt a breaking technique. Every strike is killing technique.

Good Luck.

You are right!! I would love to find an old kwan, I mean one kwan where martiality and self defense is the whole thing besides poomses. I was a JiDo Kwan practiciones till my firsth dan blak belt, now I'ma training in another dojan a good one I have to admit but is not close to what I want, SELF DEFENSE.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would be very interesting to see where Taekwondo would be today if it never entered the Olympics.

Sometimes, I feel that the olympics get a bit too much blame in this. The level of dedication needed to go to the olympics in any sport is much higher than the level of dedication than 99% of the population isn't even close to being able to put out.

I think that instructors who stress the olympics need to stress the level of training and dedication that an olympic athlete maintains. An olympic takwondoin, judoka, boxer or wrestler trains daily, vigorously and works tirelessly on the fine details of their technique as it relates to olympic competition. There's not McDojang-belt-for-sale blackbelt out there that does this.

The olympic debate has raged vigorously and acrimoniously amongst the fencing community for years, but classical fencers don't question the level of technique that the olympic guys have, but rather the veracity of the rules as they relate to fencing and what constitutes a valid touch. The athleticism of an olympic fencer is unquestioned.

Ultimately, McDojo owners use the fact that TKD is an olympic sport as a means to further promote their school. Nothing wrong with that, but by no means should the olympics be to blame for the sloppy training and subpar standards that define some of these schools.

Daniel

 

[YoungMan]

Using the Olympics as a way to promote Taekwondo and your school is not wrong as long as your organization has connections to the Olympic organizations (WTF, Kukkiwon) and your students could eventually have a chance at trying out for them.
If your organization has no connection to the Olympic organizations and you and/or your students will never be good enough to compete at that level, then using the Olympics to promote Taekwondo and your school is wrong.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Using the Olympics as a way to promote Taekwondo and your school is not wrong as long as your organization has connections to the Olympic organizations (WTF, Kukkiwon) and your students could eventually have a chance at trying out for them.
If your organization has no connection to the Olympic organizations and you and/or your students will never be good enough to compete at that level, then using the Olympics to promote Taekwondo and your school is wrong.

Also, to be eligible for the US olympic team, the athlete must also be a member of USAT if I'm not mistaken.

Daniel

 

[Topeng]

I'm so glad those of other arts feel the same way. I study Eskrima and cannot stand the sport version.
Now I'll admit I don't have any experience in the sporting side, but from what I see, there is NO respect for the weapon. It looks like these guys just crash into one another and flail to see who can hit who more times.
I must be missing something because I just don't see the point.

 

[girlbug2]

I've read a lot of (valid) complaints about Mcdojos and such, and how people may be lead to expect to advance to the next level because they're paying for a belt test. Well here's a thought: what if the instructors eliminated testing fees altogether?

Yes I do know of at least one case where this happened. Every few months there were scheduled testing dates that would be posted ahead of time to give students a deadline to work toward. The students would acquire their own belts ahead of time and bring them to the test. When testing was over, if they passed, the instructor would then present their belts formally. If not, they were encouraged to continue training as usual, and later, when the instructor felt they earned it, he would present their belt to them formally at the beginning of the next regularly scheduled class time.

Sometimes this instructor would feel that a student had progressed and deserved to be promoted, but there was no upcoming scheduled test date in the near future, so he would say "go buy your next belt and bring it to the next class" and he would formally present it then.

Certificates were printed and presented later upon request. A lot of people couldn't care less about getting their certificates and so never asked for them.

Nobody was ever charged for testing or certificates. The instructor was never under pressure from parents or adult students to promote a student because they had "paid for it".

Truthfully, I think that it should be this way everywhere. Why isn't it?

 

[girlbug2]

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that black belt tests were considerably more formal and planned in advance. Still, no fees

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm so glad those of other arts feel the same way. I study Eskrima and cannot stand the sport version.
Now I'll admit I don't have any experience in the sporting side, but from what I see, there is NO respect for the weapon. It looks like these guys just crash into one another and flail to see who can hit who more times.
I must be missing something because I just don't see the point.

I have gone to great lengths as an instructor to discourage beginning kumdo students from this type of behavour. In a tournament, rapid strikes and flailing strikes are rarely counted. But there's always someone who wants to score like a foilist in kyorugi and then wonders why I don't count any of his strikes.

I must say that I don't mind the sport side of taekwondo. Actually, I quite enjoy it. I believe that it has its place in the art and compliments the traditional aspects nicely (my opinion). Nor do I mind people concentrating on just the sport aspect. But what I do mind are schools that bill themselves as competition only but are full of kids, teens, and young adults with sloppy technique being taught by self proclaimed masters who are too out of shape to compete themselves. While not all competition only schools are like this, I have seen them.

Daniel