The Death Penalty for Sex Offenders

[Makalakumu]

In Minnesota, my home state (yes, I live in WI at the moment, but I can see my home across the river from my house), we are debating whether or not to reinstate the death penalty. If reinstated, according to the governers plant, the death penalty would apply to sex offenders.

After reading this story, what do you think?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4146010/

In light of these recent events and after many hugs given to my little girl, I am undecided.

Upnorthkyosa

 

[Spud]

At the gut level, I don’t have problems with capital punishment. Then I think twice about the costs involved to the taxpayers and the fact that at least 141 people have been exonerated (cleared based on DNA or other evidence, not technicalities or sentence reduced - US courts). It really gives me pause.

An aside – last year I spent 6 months on the county grand jury and heard well over 30 cases. There are a lot of dirtbags deserving of the worst our penal system can provide. That being said, there are also prosecution witnesses who lie and prosecutors and cops who can twist evidence to suit their agenda.

We only evaluated probably cause for prosecution, I’d hate to be called upon to hold somebody’s life in my hands based upon a court case.

 

[michaeledward]

The state should not take a human life.

The state does have a responsibility to keep its citizens safe, but when necessary, this can be done via incarceration.

In my opinion, capital punishment is about revenge, not justice.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by michaeledward
The state should not take a human life.

The state does have a responsibility to keep its citizens safe, but when necessary, this can be done via incarceration.

In my opinion, capital punishment is about revenge, not justice.

Mike

Not only that, but our legal system is not 100% accurate.

If even one innocent life is lost due to in innaccurate verdict, then in my opinion death penalty is not justifiable.

Just how I feel.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by michaeledward
The state should not take a human life.

The state does have a responsibility to keep its citizens safe, but when necessary, this can be done via incarceration.

In my opinion, capital punishment is about revenge, not justice.

Mike

Mike and Paul,

I can see where you say the State SHOULD not take a life. This comes across as your opinion which I assume you were giving .

I agree that the ostrecizing a person is a good way for a community to punish people.

Yet, sometimes a community finds it necessary to have a sufficient deterent to certain acts. Now, I am not saying that it really is a deterent, only that people feel like it might be.

Interesting subject

 

[michaeledward]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Yet, sometimes a community finds it necessary to have a sufficient deterent to certain acts. Now, I am not saying that it really is a deterent, only that people feel like it might be.

I think that is the question; Is Capital Punishment a Deterent or is it Revenge.

Of course, those in favor of the death penalty claim they are supporting it for its deterence factors. But I think in practice, it is about hurting the SOB. In fact, UpNorthKyoso posted a story that was designed to invoke anger in his question. At the visceral level, I'm sure he wants the person who is took the girl to suffer (alot); but intellectually he is trying to come to grips with that emotion. (UpNorthKyoso - no offense meant, and I hope I am not putting too many words in your mouth).

I hope I am not rehashing some arguements for a few months back, but this is one of the reasons why trials have an impartial jury ... so that guilt or innocence is not decide emotionally.

My opinions are taken from the intellectual point of view. I hope that I am never tested to see if they can stand the pressure of an emotional connection. The death penalty is always wrong. I do not think Timothy McVeigh should have been executed. I do not think Saddam Hussein should be executed.

If these people are so horrible that they must be removed from society, in order to protect society, as long as we have the means to incarcerate them eternally, we should take course of action.

One last thought, I am not opposed to suicide. And I don't think it would be inappropriate to provide a 'Life and From Now On' convict a healthy dose of potassium cyanide for personal consumption, if they so desire. That is a completely different situation.

Mike

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm sorry here for sounding so harsh but I think we need to bring "sparky" back. This unexcusable excuse for a man who just murdered that little girl in florida (caught on tape I might add) once arrested, you were seen taking her, convicted, body found; leave him in the cuffs and take him to sparky . As a father of 3 and even before I had children my believe was for the death penalty. As far as it goes for small petty crimes then jail is find. However murders, rapes, and when children are involved is just absolutely horrible. My tax dollars could be spent on better things than to have someone live in jail for decades that has murdered.
Again,
That's my stand, my statements and I'm sticking to them. :asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by michaeledward
I think that is the question; Is Capital Punishment a Deterent or is it Revenge.

My opinions are taken from the intellectual point of view. I hope that I am never tested to see if they can stand the pressure of an emotional connection. The death penalty is always wrong. I do not think Timothy McVeigh should have been executed. I do not think Saddam Hussein should be executed.

If these people are so horrible that they must be removed from society, in order to protect society, as long as we have the means to incarcerate them eternally, we should take course of action.

One last thought, I am not opposed to suicide. And I don't think it would be inappropriate to provide a 'Life and From Now On' convict a healthy dose of potassium cyanide for personal consumption, if they so desire. That is a completely different situation.

Mike

Timothy McVeigh was rightly executed because of the extreme loss of life he created for a warped cause. The loss of life included children.

Ted Bundy was rightly executed for the murders he committed.
The Green River Killer is getting away with 42 murders because he plea bargained for a multiple life sentence, that is a horrible injustice.
Jeffery Dahmler was murdered in prison before his execution and the people (victims families) rejoiced.

Saddam should be tried and judged by his own people. It's very likely they'd choose the death penalty.

While I agree with Gandalf (Tolkien) that "many who live deserve death and many who die deserve life...can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death and judgement..."
the cusp of it all is that if a person murders then it's definitely wrong. Does it merit like punishment? Depends. The guy who raped/murdered that beautiful young child in Fla. had no thought of the affect he would have on the victim's family and friends... if he did he obviously didn't give a damn because he went and did it anyway. He, in my opinion deserves the death penalty.
Likewise with any mass murderers. Defining "mass murderer?" they who kill more than one. Okay what about a single murderer? There was a case I read about where a female marine was brutally murdered with a tree branch ("Journey into Darkness" by John E. Douglas, Mark Olshaker) . He was finally executed and rightly so.
Another scenario is where a guy in a heated argument pulls out a gun and shoots the other killing him... does he deserve the death penalty.. probably not.
It's (IMO) variant on the amount of remorse afterwards. Look at the crime itself and the motivation and methodology of it. Look at the victim and then the victim's family. Look at the perpetrator and see if he/she wouldn't do it again if given the opportunity?
What may be considered revenge might be construde as justice depending upon the case.
A life sentence can be a good way to keep the habitiual perp(s) off the streets/society. So long as they do not have the opportunity for parole. But when they so violently take a life without (obvious) thought or regard to the victim or their families, or that they enacted out a sick fantasy or gave no rein to their anger/hatered and took it out on a hapless (and often times innocent) individual then IMO they have no use in our society.

Offering a suicide pill I think is doing the victim and the families an injustice. It's giving them (the perps) control over their fate/destiny. They raped and murdered because they "wanted" control over that particular individual. By doing the execution ourselves we are taking it "out of their hands" and in effect they lose.

Should non-murdering sex offenders be executed? As one who interned with a group of offenders under going therapy (one of my MANY vocations) I found that once they were made to accept 100% accountablilty for their crime(s) and taught empathy for their victims they were very remorseful and less likely to re-offend.
Those who were/are (remorseful) not should and have receive the maximum penalty by law in their state.

What irks me the most is the length of time an inmate sits on death-row waiting for their DOE. I feel that the maximum should be two years. Reasons being 1. that the families of their victims shouldn't have to wait so long for closure. 2. Defense attorneys who feel their clients are really innocent would get off their duffs and work to find the DNA evidence which would clear them. 3. The drain on the tax paying citizen would be considerably less. And so on.

When it comes to a child the loss of THAT life is inexcusable when it's taken by someone. The punishment should fit the crime.

(ok, ok I rant again :soapbox: but obviously I have some thoughts/feelings about this subject).


:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by michaeledward
The state should not take a human life.

The state does have a responsibility to keep its citizens safe, but when necessary, this can be done via incarceration.

In my opinion, capital punishment is about revenge, not justice.

Mike

not to mention a lot of scuicidle people will use the state to kill themselves, and the severity of there crimes will only increase. The Death penalty is only a detourant for sane well adjusted people.:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

"The essence of the law is that the sweets of private vengeance shall be denied."

--Sinclair Lewis

 

[Makalakumu]

In my mind, I have arrayed all of the rational arguments against the death penalty that I can think of at the moment. I know that there are too many problems with this thing. Yet, on a visceral level, I want vengence.

Is this bad?

I'm not sure that it is and I'm not sure that it isn't? Perhaps we cannot help it. In fact, the more I think about it, I kind of see it as an evolutionary second chance. It is a well documented fact that a mammallian male will attempt to kill the offspring of a female in order to show his dominance. Perhaps revenge is a reactionary mechanism to this loss, causing the progenitor of the lost offspring to take out the usurper. Thus giving the individual a second chance at passing on his heredity.

If this is the case, then the emotions associated with revenge are sunk into every cell in our body. Which would explain why I would feel the need to kill a man if he did that to my daughter. I'm not trying to sound crazy, I'm being honest. Things like this, make me ask the question, "what would I do in this case?"

Perhaps if my nerve faltered and my social conditioning was strong enough, I would want to make the state do it. Otherwise I would grab the sword...isn't that an archtype! Who here would see that man as a hero? Who would see him as a murderer?

 

[michaeledward]

Posted by jfarnsworth
My tax dollars could be spent on better things than to have someone live in jail for decades that has murdered.

I don't know if it is true or not, and perhaps someone can find the data, but I thought I read somewhere that it costs 3 times as much to execute a death row inmate than it does to keep the inmate incarcerated for life. Does it actually take more of your tax dollars to execute someone?

Posted by MACaver
Timothy McVeigh was rightly executed
Ted Bundy was rightly executed

What exactly makes their execution "right"? Yes, the crimes these men commited were extreme and violent.

I see this argument as a very clear choice between two options. Are we trying to keep the citizens of the country safe, or are we trying to be fair.

Is the purpose of their execution to make society safer? or is the purpose of their execution to exact revenge?

Assuming that a maximum security prison is escape proof (I know, I know), aren't the communities safety concerns met by the incarceration? If the purpose of the execution is to exact revenge for the crimes committed, then the death penalty is acceptable.

I do not view the United States justice system as an instrument of vengence. I understand that others may see things differently. I understand that I am in the minority in our country at the moment. But I always reasoned that 'An Eye for An Eye' left the whole world blind.

One more thought ... some say the purpose of the death penalty is deterence. Studies have shown that people who commit criminal acts, from the smallest to most extreme, do not think they will be caught. If you don't think you are going to get caught, how can a punishment for getting caught deter you?

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think the death penalty can be logically explained. This debate is about an emotional response. I think that revenge and outrage are so much a part of us that when these horrible events happen to someone we love, our entire bodies cry out a primordial call to action. This happens despite the logic in which we compartmentalize our lives.

At this moment, I have a lot of empathy for the family of that little girl because I have one of my own. If I had to put a vote in the ballot box though...what does everybody think? Is vengeance a part of humanity that cannot be avoided?

 

[michaeledward]

I think the desire for vengence is, perhaps, unavoidable on a personal level.

However, on a societal level, it is not unavoidable. Most of the 1st world countries on the planet have banned capital punishment.

I have no doubt that citizens in those countries, when subjected to a personal loss, feel the desire for revenge, but society imposes its better judgement.

 

[TonyM.]

I can't justify capitol punishment. As a former correctional officer I've met some people that make me resentfull that I'm breathing the same air, but by the same token people in general are such incredible lyers that to trust them to tell the truth after the fact and have a persons life depend on the truth tells me that innocent people are being executed. Sure there is the odd case where everyone saw such and such do something and there's tons of evidence, but what about the majority of the cases that are not so clear. The last figure I heard was a ten percent error rate in executed convicted murderers. For me one percent is too much.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by michaeledward
I think the desire for vengence is, perhaps, unavoidable on a personal level.

However, on a societal level, it is not unavoidable. Most of the 1st world countries on the planet have banned capital punishment.

I have no doubt that citizens in those countries, when subjected to a personal loss, feel the desire for revenge, but society imposes its better judgement.

Micheal Edward,

I can look at a country and guess a third world country. I can look around my house and guess at a first world country.

Is there a list of whch country is which? Is there a definition?


Now back to the subject.

If a peson has a gut reaction, either from religious morals, hereditary evolution, or what have you. Yet, in the USA, our coutnry tries to resolve this in the following way. If it violates your morals, and your personal values then you argue to make the point ethical. If society determines an action to be ethical then they usually create a law to enact some type of action that the state or federal law system may execute or carry out.

So, the discussion here, is a natural part of the system. People expressing their view, and trying to get others to either believe in them or to understand them. The better you present your arguement in a logical point of view not just emotions the better you have of communicating your point and possible getting others the change their mind. There s nothing wrong with a rant or personal point being emotional, as long as it follows our rules here, And these posts have. So, no one take this wrong please.

No one is wrong and no one is right in this case. I do not think you will find 100% of scoiety to agree upon anything. Hence the request for putting it to the voters, if the majority who vote, vote for an action then society has determine something to be ethical and also taken action.

MY Point to this post?

Keep posting and get out and vote when there is an election. Make your views and beliefs count.

My Apologies if I upset or insulted someone.
:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
My Apologies if I upset or insulted someone.

Brother Rich;
You didn't offend me.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by michaeledward
I don't know if it is true or not, and perhaps someone can find the data, but I thought I read somewhere that it costs 3 times as much to execute a death row inmate than it does to keep the inmate incarcerated for life. Does it actually take more of your tax dollars to execute someone?

I have no idea. Maybe or maybe not. I'm thinking about 2000 volts of electricity to someone who has raped or murdered a child or any other heinous crime for that matter. I was watching america's most wanted a couple of weeks ago or so and seen a story of a woman who got attacked while trying to enter her home. She had been stabbed over 20 times. As soon as they catch this bird he needs to be tried then immediately executed. This evil man does not need to walk our streets nor does he need to be jailed for 20 yrs. or so then let out to walk our streets again.

 

[michaeledward]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

This link provided to answer some question concerning the death penalty. No doubt the site advocates one point of view or another. I just took a quick look concerning costs.

Here's one quote:

Each death penalty case costs Texas average of $2.3 million
That is about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years. (Dallas Morning News, March 8, 1992)

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, why not.

There are--I'll put together a lowball figure from different numbers I've read--a minimum of 20,000 kids working as prostitutes in this country. Probably a million plus world-wide. I would consider them to have been raped, and I would consider their ongoing employment as a kind of ongoing serial rape, and so...shouldn't we execute all the, "customers?"

The US government apparently did experiments at Oak Ridge giving lethal doses of radiation to terminally ill kids back in the 1950s--not as an experiment in helping them, either, but to study the effects of fatal radiation doses in kids. I would consider anyone who knowingly participated in this to be guilty of anything from "special circumstances," murder (premeditation; young victims; a particularly cruel death) to conspiracy to commit murder, wouldn't you? So...shouldn't they die?

Such examples can be multiplied endlessly. People who beat children to death; irresponsible landlords who rent firetraps; those guys in France who knowingly sold HIV-contaminated blood fractions to hemophiliac kids; the guys who did Bhopal; the guys like Ollie North who aided and abetted right-wing death-squads that killed kids as well as parents. So....

Incidentally, it is relatively rare for a child to be hurt, kidnaped, killed by a complete stranger. In well over 90% of these cases, it's family that does it. So...