OK, so now I'm pissed...

[Blotan Hunka]

Interstate Highway System at a Crossroads; A Crumbling Legacy

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/Story?id=2131042&page=2

 

[Makalakumu]

Good article, BH.

This very spring, MN lawmakers voted to increase the gas tax in that state to try and deal with these very issues. The MN governer vetoed it because he had signed this "no new taxes pledge" and he has his eyes on higher offices. The MN legislature attempted to over ride the governors veto, but failed.

My guess is that every single person who sided with the governor on this issue is going to be in hot water. The people of MN now have a real life tangible example of why we need to spend this money.

I wish it didn't have to happen this way. I wish people would have just listened to reason before it came to this. That is why this story is so infuriating to me. We know the problem is there, but the politics came first.

Ideology supplanted practicality.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Good article, BH.

This very spring, MN lawmakers voted to increase the gas tax in that state to try and deal with these very issues. The MN governer vetoed it because he had signed this "no new taxes pledge" and he has his eyes on higher offices. The MN legislature attempted to over ride the governors veto, but failed.

My guess is that every single person who sided with the governor on this issue is going to be in hot water. The people of MN now have a real life tangible example of why we need to spend this money.

I wish it didn't have to happen this way. I wish people would have just listened to reason before it came to this. That is why this story is so infuriating to me. We know the problem is there, but the politics came first.

Ideology supplanted practicality.

Again, run for governor. This is the wake up call that "an increase in taxes to have money to fix things that need fixin' is a good thing". Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer. How many people have died already? 4, and 20 missing. Sounds like someone who goes by UpnorthKyosa should run to try to fix crap like this.

For refernce, yes I am going to keep posting my suggestion that you run for governor until you either do, or stop posting on this thread. Just to warn you!

 

[jks9199]

Again, run for governor. This is the wake up call that "an increase in taxes to have money to fix things that need fixin' is a good thing". Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer. How many people have died already? 4, and 20 missing. Sounds like someone who goes by UpnorthKyosa should run to try to fix crap like this.

For refernce, yes I am going to keep posting my suggestion that you run for governor until you either do, or stop posting on this thread. Just to warn you!

Just an observation... As far as I know, each state mirrors (sometimes in a fun house mirror -- but still mirroring) the federal separation of powers.

The legislatures generally make the laws, and control the purse strings.

The executive generally proposes a budget, and enforces the laws.

The judicial has little to do with the budget or spending; I'll skip that one for now.

So. most governors (and the President of the United States, as well), don't actually have a lot of control over economies or road repair, unless the legislature cooperates. If the law makers won't approve a budget with the road repair money in it... there won't be money. Doesn't matter how badly the executive wants to fix the roads; he ain't got the money.

 

[MBuzzy]

Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?

It depends on the roadway. If you take a look at a map, you'll see designations for particular roads...Interstate, US Highway, State Highway, County Road, etc. These designations basically explain who is paying for them, who is responsible for them.

For this particular bridge, the funding and impetus for maintanance comes from the federal level. It's part of the interstate highway system.

The worst part about this is that every municipality and government system has their OWN Civil Engineer. There are local, county, state, and federal civil engineers. Unfortunately, there is never ONE right answer, there are many and in many cases, each of these CE's have a different opinion, some with different motivations. Some of them are more political than others. This leads to arguments and general distrust of the Engineering career field. How many times have you heard about something badly designed "some dumb engineer behind a desk must have designed it." What I have noticed is that this is leading to a lot of people with opinions and repair methods that have no basis. I can't tell you how many Lowe's employees I have had conversations with about concrete and asphalt....self proclaimed experts that have no idea. They are everywhere....even in the Government systems. I have had MANY bosses who "knew" more than me about pavements...without a day of education or real experience about it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Just an observation... As far as I know, each state mirrors (sometimes in a fun house mirror -- but still mirroring) the federal separation of powers.

The legislatures generally make the laws, and control the purse strings.

The executive generally proposes a budget, and enforces the laws.

The judicial has little to do with the budget or spending; I'll skip that one for now.

So. most governors (and the President of the United States, as well), don't actually have a lot of control over economies or road repair, unless the legislature cooperates. If the law makers won't approve a budget with the road repair money in it... there won't be money. Doesn't matter how badly the executive wants to fix the roads; he ain't got the money.

Stae legislature then?

 

[Empty Hands]

Run on a platform of reform and revitalization! With incindents like this in peoples mind, they will gladly open ther wallets and pocket books if it means they would be safer.

Bullcrap. Everyone always claims they want reform and a reformer, just like they always want a plainspoken politician who will tell them the truth. Invariably, every time the voters get their chance at either, the voters vote them down. Jesse Ventura was elected in MN on a reform platform - the legislature blocked him at every turn and he ended his tenure extremely unpopular. Schwarzenegger in CA was also elected on a reform platform, and the voters rejected each and every one of his reform-minded ballot measures. Every time a "truth-teller" comes along - Perot, McCain (for a while), Paul, Gravel, Kucinich - they are never voted in, and are usually perceived as fringe nutballs.

I am forced to conclude that the voters want exactly what they have gotten - corrupt, double-faced and double-speaking politicians who will tell us what we want to hear and promise that sacrifices will never be necessary.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?

State.

 

[grydth]

Quite a slippery slope there, don't you think?


Was it obvious that the bridge had problems? How long was the bridge supposed to last? I mean, if they thought it would last 100 years and something went wrong, the government can hardly be blamed. Accidents happen, whether the country is at war or not.

It certainly is unfortunate, but blaming it on the government because we're at war is simply ludicrous

To the extent that this person is saying, " Let's get all the facts before we make any conclusion."..... I wholeheartedly agree.

The thread initiator may be correct - or may not be. It is simply too early to tell. Let's allow the survivors to grieve and allow the investigators to do their work. Then, and only then, we can rationally debate this.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Bullcrap. Everyone always claims they want reform and a reformer, just like they always want a plainspoken politician who will tell them the truth. Invariably, every time the voters get their chance at either, the voters vote them down. Jesse Ventura was elected in MN on a reform platform - the legislature blocked him at every turn and he ended his tenure extremely unpopular. Schwarzenegger in CA was also elected on a reform platform, and the voters rejected each and every one of his reform-minded ballot measures. Every time a "truth-teller" comes along - Perot, McCain (for a while), Paul, Gravel, Kucinich - they are never voted in, and are usually perceived as fringe nutballs.

I am forced to conclude that the voters want exactly what they have gotten - corrupt, double-faced and double-speaking politicians who will tell us what we want to hear and promise that sacrifices will never be necessary.

There is a differnce between what people want, and what they need. Small children refuse to eat sometimes, but are eventually made to eat. Many of the first leaders of this country were reformers in every sense of the word. The Roosevelts where major reformers. Or are you referring to people now adays?
Besides, if the people you mentioned are 'fringe nutballs', they should meet me. With how intellegent people make me out to be, with how curious and imagnitive I am, plus the fact that I'm more of a leftist then liberals, they should see what I would do! -laughs chaoticly-

 

[Dave Leverich]

I have to agree with Empty Hands, people vote down more money for police forces, then gripe when there aren't enough officers to patrol (and the officers are looking anywhere they can for work). They gripe about crappy roads, then vote down a bill that would fun the work to fix the roads.

I've seen in constantly and I think it comes down to people want to sling blame, but not take a stand and actually do what is right... until after some tragedy when they can stand and shout and yell about how messed up things are and how no one cares, the government is corrupt, our leaders messed up, it's someone elses fault.... not realizing they're yelling about themselves.

Rather than slinging blame on the bridges, yes I do agree if there was someone at fault then do the right thing.. but, how about rather than being a bunch of litigious bastards who try and point fingers... we stop and simply pray for those who lost loved ones, and make sure the next bill for safety measures... passes, even if it costs us a bit every few years.

 

[Yeti]

It is one of the responsiblities of the government to maintain such public works. They didn't do that, because they are focused on the War, and not there own citizens.

It is NOT the responsibility of the federal government to maintain a bridge on a state road!

 

[CuongNhuka]

I have to agree with Empty Hands, people vote down more money for police forces, then gripe when there aren't enough officers to patrol (and the officers are looking anywhere they can for work). They gripe about crappy roads, then vote down a bill that would fun the work to fix the roads.

I've seen in constantly and I think it comes down to people want to sling blame, but not take a stand and actually do what is right... until after some tragedy when they can stand and shout and yell about how messed up things are and how no one cares, the government is corrupt, our leaders messed up, it's someone elses fault.... not realizing they're yelling about themselves.

Rather than slinging blame on the bridges, yes I do agree if there was someone at fault then do the right thing.. but, how about rather than being a bunch of litigious bastards who try and point fingers... we stop and simply pray for those who lost loved ones, and make sure the next bill for safety measures... passes, even if it costs us a bit every few years.

Again, what they want is to not pay more taxes, and sling blame. What they need is someone to spend some time and money to repair infastructure.

Yeti, I never said it was the job of the fed.s. In Nebraksa people in government positions as low as MAYORS are spending alot time complianing about something to do with the war. If people would just do there job (and let other people do there job) we would be much better off.

 

[qi-tah]

Our government down here has recently made two sweeping decisions. The first was to take control of Aboriginal regional communities and the second was to bring some hospitals under its sway. Don't know about the first, might be a disaster. The second is a good thing as hospital sare jointly funded by the Federal and State governments but wholy run by the states who just blame the Feds if something goes wrong.

*warning - off topic Australian politics rant (sorry)*

Ooh, don't go there! The Feds seem just as good at blaming the states when it suits them too!

I reckon you can bet yr bottom dollar that the hospitals John Howard is taking over are in marginal liberal seats... oh, and isn't this an election year? Pure policy on the fly, ripping up over 100 years of federation and state rights just to garner enough votes to keep him in office... this government gets more despotic by the day.

*now returning you to yr previous programming*

 

[Empty Hands]

There is a differnce between what people want, and what they need.

No doubt. However, we do have a democratic system, so absent a benevolent dictator, we will continue to have the leaders people want. Despite all the problems, I think this is still a good thing.

Many of the first leaders of this country were reformers in every sense of the word. The Roosevelts where major reformers. Or are you referring to people now adays?

Yes, I am referring to the current system. The modern expectation of the role of government and the people is quite different now than it was then. Also, the most egregious abuses of the past are still mostly gone, which allows people to be complacent. I am not saying that reform is impossible - just that the voters have demonstrated by their actions that they don't particularly want it.

 

[MJS]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/



Alright everybody, the stuff that I predicted 10 years ago is starting to happen. Our government has been spending money on bombs and useless wars for so long that all of the infrastructure that we built over 40 years ago is ready to collapse...and is collapsing! How much longer are we as a people going to let this happen! Seriously, are we so afraid of some gad damned unnamed enemy that we can't even fix our own roads any more!

I've driven across that bridge for years and years and years. Maybe next time it will be you...and I bet you probably have a better chance that the ****ing bridge will collapse if compared to the odds of a terrorist attack.

Ok, seriously pissed. This is my home. Rant over.

upnorthkyosa

Yes, this certainly was a tragedy and my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families. While watching the news tonight, they were talking about the bridge, as well as other bridges thru-out the world and the various conditions that they're in. What amazes me, is that everyone is now running around inspecting all these bridges. Why weren't they doing it before?? Why does it take an event like this, to wake people up? Same thing with 9/11. It took something like that, to wake people up. So, just like then, people run around, doing what they should've been doing all along (inspecting bridges). Just like 9/11, things will start off full bore, but will gradually slow back to the pace that we were originally in. Within a few months, the inspections will drop back, until the next tragic event happens. Its really a shame.

Mike

 

[CuongNhuka]

No doubt. However, we do have a democratic system, so absent a benevolent dictator, we will continue to have the leaders people want. Despite all the problems, I think this is still a good thing.

Yes, I am referring to the current system. The modern expectation of the role of government and the people is quite different now than it was then. Also, the most egregious abuses of the past are still mostly gone, which allows people to be complacent. I am not saying that reform is impossible - just that the voters have demonstrated by their actions that they don't particularly want it.

True. One of the Flaws of Democracy is that some times change is needed, but the people say 'no'. Incidents like this will (I believe) demonstrate that the U.S. has some serious problems, that need to be addressed.

All I'm going to say about the need for refrom (which are unanswered by citizens who refuse to accept change):
"Every three Generations, there should be a Revolution" - Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Steel Tiger]

*warning - off topic Australian politics rant (sorry)*

Ooh, don't go there! The Feds seem just as good at blaming the states when it suits them too!

I reckon you can bet yr bottom dollar that the hospitals John Howard is taking over are in marginal liberal seats... oh, and isn't this an election year? Pure policy on the fly, ripping up over 100 years of federation and state rights just to garner enough votes to keep him in office... this government gets more despotic by the day.

*now returning you to yr previous programming*

With this I can only agree.

The collapse of the bridge is almost constantly in the news down here. I was shocked to hear that the investigation into why might take as long as three years and that the funds allocated to reconstruction might be quite a bit short of what is necessary. Oh, wait, I'm not that shocked afterall.

 

[MJS]

With this I can only agree.

The collapse of the bridge is almost constantly in the news down here. I was shocked to hear that the investigation into why might take as long as three years and that the funds allocated to reconstruction might be quite a bit short of what is necessary. Oh, wait, I'm not that shocked afterall.

Its a big topic of discussion here in CT as well, as we seem to have quite a few bridges that are in poor shape. Reading this I once again repeat my views from my other post....why does it take a tragedy like this to make people wake up and realize that inspection of major routes of transportation need to be kept up.

Mike