The body's reaction to strikes

[bob919]

yeh when someones on pcp you have to break something legs for example

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by bob919
yeh when someones on pcp you have to break something legs for example

NO. YOU do! It is important you not assign your own limitations to others, and instead perhaps as a suggestion - maybe ask a question or two. But, what do I know? (rhetorical)

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Ok. I'll ask then. What would your advice be in regarding neutralizing someone who is under the influence of narcotics?

 

[bob919]

actually i was joking it would take a hell of a force to break a leg you might be able to dislocate a knee cap though they couldn't run on that

 

[Ronin]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
hummm ok... :asian: of course we could see if we could do it the old japanese way and use prisoners lol... i wonder who i would have to write a letter too? i mean we could use death row inmates and life sentence inmates that way if we acidently killed any of them in the process we would at least be helping the government out a little. ill look into it... its kind of interesting actually

That would be a good idea that way we'd save a million dollars an inmate.

 

[yilisifu]

Terrorists make fine training aids.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Terrorists make fine training aids.

Just like the Spetznaz used to make full use of the prisoners from the gulags as training partners.... lol

 

[D.Cobb]

Chop to the neck: Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over. [/B]

If done correctly, they will either pass out, or become extremely uncoordinated, for a few seconds.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?

jb:asian:

There is concept that is taught in some circles, known as PDPR,
Pre-Determined Pain Response. This concept states that for every specific strike causing pain, there is a specific response that the body gives, in an effort to escape or minimize the pain.

I am still fairly new to this concept myself, but I will endeavour to show you what I mean.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Kicked in the groin

The knees buckle, the pelvic region shoots backward and the head comes forward and down.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
poked in the eye

The head will shoot straight back, possibly on a slight angle with the affected eye pulled away from the attacker. The hands will come up with 1 of 2 responses. Either they will go toward the attacker or they will attempt to cover the affected eye.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
hit in the lower solar plexus

I believe the area you are referring to here is the area known as the xiphoid process(sp?). It is the area that Bruce Lee used to target with his 1" punch. The body's natural response when attacked here is to throw itself backward away from the attack. A lesser known advantage of striking this point correctly is that the adrenal dump that the body is going through whilst in the altercation will be negated. That is to say that fight will go right out of your opponent, allowing you to take whatever steps are necessary to get away.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
hit in the higher solar plexus

First and foremost is when struck right, this point will cause your opponent to be winded. This will cause his head to come forward and down a little, and cause him to back up whilst sucking for air, like a wounded fish.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
hit in the kidney

Will cause him to arch foward, on a slight angle bringing the effected kidney forward. Most likely his hand will go to the affected kidney.

Originally posted by jbkenpo
chopped in the neck, etc...

When the chop or hammerfist to the neck is done right, your opponent will either become quite uncoordinated, or pass out. When done with force on the right angle, this can be quite devestating in its effects.


I hope this answers your question, or more importantly, makes you think of new ones.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Chronuss
when we spar over at the college, there's always twenty guys that wanna throw that hardest, fastest round kick to your chest that they possibly can. unfortunately, the twenty guys couldn't get their foot above their waist if they were lying on the ground and raised their legs... so a round kick to the groin is inevitable, of which I've received a few. the pain isn't immediate, it's more of a lingering feeling that filters up to the chest, but boy, does it suck.

The pain from a groin shot varies depending on the angle of the attack. If you are struck front on, it is painful but you will find the effects are more according to scare value, or pucker factor. If the strike comes from under, toward the back on an angle, the pain will cause a reaction, but the end effect may be less than you'd expect.

If, however, the strike comes straight up from under, giving you two little pancakes(my eyes are watering just writing this), against the bottom of your pelvic bone, then you are in for a world of hurt....

I am such a bad ***, if you did it to me, I guarantee you that I would umm cry and curl up in a ball on the ground and cry and I would call for my mummy and I would cry.....

--Dave
did I mention that I would cry?

:shrug:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

D Cobb

I have to agree with your analysis of the PDPR. I've seen each of these strikes done with varying degrees of force and the results are quite interesting. Another variable would be the angle of attack. Mr. Mills has hit various people with the "kidney" shot. Striking upward and inward caused the man to arch backwards and step forward slightly the arms stretched backwards to relieve the pressure. Striking downward, he "tapped" a guy and dropped him directly to his knees. One strike and the guy was down (for some time I might add), and it wasn't at but maybe 50% power, it was just about proper body mechanics.

Chop to the neck: Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over.

I was taught to use the borrowed force (i.e. your opponents reaction from the groin or thigh kick) for your outward chop. If you wait until the guys completely bent over and just hanging their clutching his junk, then you've lost alot of useful energy. in Five swords you are making use of your opponents forward momentum and striking to the neck (at least that's the way we do it). You should be trying to harnass as much energy as you can, not just expending your own. You know meet force with force, like these two mugs hitting each other. :cheers:

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
The pain from a groin shot varies depending on the angle of the attack. If you are struck front on, it is painful but you will find the effects are more according to scare value, or pucker factor. If the strike comes from under, toward the back on an angle, the pain will cause a reaction, but the end effect may be less than you'd expect.

If, however, the strike comes straight up from under, giving you two little pancakes(my eyes are watering just writing this), against the bottom of your pelvic bone, then you are in for a world of hurt....

I am such a bad ***, if you did it to me, I guarantee you that I would umm cry and curl up in a ball on the ground and cry and I would call for my mummy and I would cry.....

--Dave
did I mention that I would cry?

:shrug:

D.Cobb,
I'd cry too, man. LOL!!!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
There is a belief that when we strike the body it will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid?
jb:asian:

Excellent Idea.......... Are you volunteering for the task? I (and probably several others) would love to know how "your" body would react (generally speaking) from one of my strikes when:

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently verified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies?
jb:asian:

We could do a service to this forum by supplying such a verified list!!

Originally posted by jbkenpo
One question that comes to my mind is where Doc always says when someone is hit in the balls, they won't drop immediately.
jb:asian:

Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!!

:rofl:

 

[Steve Howard]

JB,
don't know about you, but I was "lucky" enough to have instructors that actually hit me. Believe me, when the techniques are done correctly, your opponent will react exactly the way you expect him to react. Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing.

--Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing. --Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

:rofl:
No...... the saying goes........
"To HEAR is to doubt,
To SEE is to be deceived,
But to FEEL is to Believe"!!!
:rofl:

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7


Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!!

:rofl:

Whew that's OK then. I've still got another 5 or 6 left over.........


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Excellent Idea.......... Are you volunteering for the task? I (and probably several others) would love to know how "your" body would react (generally speaking) from one of my strikes when:

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

No volunteers here...

But let me guess Oooooowwwwwww, help, I can't see...., Ooofff, ugghh, Shheeeee, THUMP!!!! (the sound of hitting the ground after the chop)...

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

We could do a service to this forum by supplying such a verified list!!

Uh yeah, I don't think so...

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Did he happen to also tell you that when HE hits you there... there will be "NOTHING TO DROP" because he has "crushed everything" for 10 square inches!!! :rofl:

I could tell that last time I visited him..

jb :asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
JB,
don't know about you, but I was "lucky" enough to have instructors that actually hit me. Believe me, when the techniques are done correctly, your opponent will react exactly the way you expect him to react. Seeing may be believing, but feeling is the begining of knowing.

--Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

Well,

I suppose I've been "lucky" over the last 17 yrs as well. But in each instance it was in a sterile environment except when we would do our Kenpo Brawl drills. At that point anything could happen. So your instructor kicked your ***, while you played stone statue, so you think you know exactly how an adrinaline pumping, dope head, predator is going to act when you execute your Kenpo under extreme prejudice...maybe you will?

But my original point, which was lost, is exactly what you said, "Believe me"...

Why should I?

Give me hard, methodical evidence other than it's what "you did" while standing there taking it.

Like you said, "I don't know about you"..and I don't.

What guys call contact in Ohio might be considered tickling in Texas. If you've been to Texas, then you know what I mean.

Respectfully, jb :asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
There is concept that is taught in some circles, known as PDPR,
Pre-Determined Pain Response. This concept states that for every specific strike causing pain, there is a specific response that the body gives, in an effort to escape or minimize the pain.

I am still fairly new to this concept myself, but I will endeavour to show you what I mean.


The knees buckle, the pelvic region shoots backward and the head comes forward and down.


The head will shoot straight back, possibly on a slight angle with the affected eye pulled away from the attacker. The hands will come up with 1 of 2 responses. Either they will go toward the attacker or they will attempt to cover the affected eye.


I believe the area you are referring to here is the area known as the xiphoid process(sp?). It is the area that Bruce Lee used to target with his 1" punch. The body's natural response when attacked here is to throw itself backward away from the attack. A lesser known advantage of striking this point correctly is that the adrenal dump that the body is going through whilst in the altercation will be negated. That is to say that fight will go right out of your opponent, allowing you to take whatever steps are necessary to get away.



First and foremost is when struck right, this point will cause your opponent to be winded. This will cause his head to come forward and down a little, and cause him to back up whilst sucking for air, like a wounded fish.


Will cause him to arch foward, on a slight angle bringing the effected kidney forward. Most likely his hand will go to the affected kidney.



When the chop or hammerfist to the neck is done right, your opponent will either become quite uncoordinated, or pass out. When done with force on the right angle, this can be quite devestating in its effects.


I hope this answers your question, or more importantly, makes you think of new ones.

--Dave

:asian:

Thanks Dave,

All of these were pretty basic responses that I'm familiar with, but my point was to show me where these concepts were imperically researched or tested. Who are the keepers of the PDPR, Pre-Determined Pain Response book. Can I see how many real life situations they researched and interviewed recently to see how they came up with these "pre-determinations" or does it just "make sense" that they will react that way? Also I never mentioned the "exact" weapon, but you gave a general response for each which leads me to believe that they/you are just following the same generic non-updated beliefs....I'll give you an example below..

In regards to the solar plexus question I wasn't speaking of the sternum or the xiphoid process at the end of it. I was speaking of the solar plexus and how striking at different ranges, positions and angles (upward, downward, horizontal, circular, torqing, etc) and at various heights with various weapons (hammer, backfist, phoenix fist, middle knuckle, forearm, open hand, etc) and using various manuvers and principles to enter (backup mass, borrowed force, fitting strikes, speed, etc..) and other "considerations" affect that "pre-determined" outcome...

Respectfully, jb:asian:

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
Well,

I suppose I've been "lucky" over the last 17 yrs as well. But in each instance it was in a sterile environment except when we would do our Kenpo Brawl drills. At that point anything could happen. So your instructor kicked your ***, while you played stone statue, so you think you know exactly how an adrinaline pumping, dope head, predator is going to act when you execute your Kenpo under extreme prejudice...maybe you will?

But my original point, which was lost, is exactly what you said, "Believe me"...

Why should I?

Give me hard, methodical evidence other than it's what "you did" while standing there taking it.

Like you said, "I don't know about you"..and I don't.

What guys call contact in Ohio might be considered tickling in Texas. If you've been to Texas, then you know what I mean.

Respectfully, jb :asian:

First,

I'm not sure why jb felt he needed to turn my post into a personal attack. If that's the way I came off--then I apologize. I also thank him for including Mr. Jay T. Will in his "fallen warriors" section of his website.

That being said... my lineage comes directly thru Mr. Will. He would have given you all the contact you could handle, and we continue that tradition in his schools. Don't assume that because you act the part of "stone statue" in your classes that that it is the way that everyone trains--it isn't. I've also been fortunate to "touch hands" with some of the heaviest hitters in our business, including Huk Planas, Martin Wheeler, Al Tracy and both of the Flores Brothers. After feeling their power, I don't have any concern over what you think you or Texas could offer me.

I've also been "tested" inside and outside of my studio by students and strangers alike, and my training has never let me down. In particular, Spinning from the Sun and Striking Asp work exactly the way they're supposed to. If you had been fortunate enough to spend time with some of your seniors you would know that the men who trained personally with Mr. Parker (at least the younger Mr. Parker) did indeed test these reactions and that their training sessions bore little resemblance to what you see in most commercialized dojos today. As Mr. Will used to say when recalling his lessons with Mr. Parker: "The lesson wasn't over until he dumped you in the fireplace or something got broken." The human body hasn't signifigantly evolved in the past 40 years, so why do you think that the work done by these men is no longer valid?

As far as the doped-up assailant not responding to pain, etc. Mr. Parker considered this when designing the techniques and employing the targets that he chose. It's also the reason that angular footwook is stressed in our system. A dope head might not feel a broken nose, but his eyes will still water. And a good choke doesn't rely on pain at all.

You don't have to "believe me", but you didn't need to insult me or my state either. Unlike your closing, the body of your response was anything but respectful and reflects poorly on someone with your supposed level of training.