Technique Discussion: Dropping The Storm & 5 Swords

[ATACX GYM]

I disagree with you ATACX. You may have not seen it but doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you may not have done it, doesn't mean it isn't done by others. You may not be able to work it, doesn't mean, etc. Kenpo is not about getting in shape, that's a benefit, of which there are many, but the point of the Kenpo is stopping the bad guy and getting away. What is your exposure to Kenpo? where did you learn? Who taught you? How long studying Kenpo? Which specific Kenpo? I have a feeling your experience has been as negative as mine was with another art. For the longest time I said "X art sucks" but it was the teacher, not the art as I came to understand once I met other black belts in that art from outside that school. Of course its still up to the student to train as well. If you don't do the basics correctly of course it won't work.

Okay Inkspill,I respect your posts and the obvious intellect and love of Kenpo behind it.However,I must state again that we're NOT talking about Kenpo AS A WHOLE,instead we're having a focused discussion about the IP delivery of the 72 SD techniques that form the spine of Kenpo.This is not a discussion about the merit of a martial art imho (of which Kenpo has too many merits to count again imho) instead we are having a difference of opinion regarding the validity of a training method.Training methods are verifiable in objective reality; they are NOT a matter of purely subjective opinion.Therefore the IP can be empirically quantified irrespective of one's sentiment for,against,or indifferent to it.The verdict is in on the IP.

This "IDEAL PHASE" is a devastatingly horrific almost certainly dysfunctional deception that needs to be trash canned ASAP.The IDEAS BEHIND the "ideal phase" are GOOD SOLID IDEAS.We should specifically train against common street SD scenarios and attacks as these scenarios and attacks are likely to never occur in the most primary froms of sparring matches in the dojo.The surprise attack,multifights,armed attacks,verbal confrontation leading to the sucker punch,being pushed/slammed/thrown into walls,energetic attacks and hair grabs,head slams,etc.Wonderful ideas to start FUNCTIONAL TRAINING from.The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic...and therefore therefore there are NO functional,positive,healthy,solid ideas to be had from it.Put another way? If by some miracle someone finds something of worth in it? There is infinitely MORE worth in the FM (Functional Method).

The FM is a blend of Sports Specific Training (which includes nutrition and performance oriented psychology),and all the primary sciences disciplines and arts of performance.It's inclusive of all aspects of recovery,of yoga,of nutrition,of every aspect of proven combat methods,inclusive of periodized training and other methods,etc.It's incredibly result oriented in all things and has specific empirical means of measuring results...including in the "mental/physical/spiritual" holistic approach.Any and every human pursuit and aspiration can be translated into the Functional Method (even searches for love,lol) and it's incredibly healthy.It is the antithesis of the nonfunctional I.P. which delivers zero positive results or at least results which are dramatically overpowered in every realm in every way by the FM.

As for my experience in Kenpo and who was it with? My primary instructor is my uncle and Grandmaster Bobby Thomas.I trained with Chicken Gabriel along with Steve "Nasty" Anderson,I trained with Sijo Muhammad of the BKF and Master Amen Ra of the BKF as well.My experience with and training of Kenpo I would characterize as universally positive.If I disliked Kenpo in any way,I would not be practicing it or championing it.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Well, can't add much more to this post, other than to say that I wanna steal the bold parts and make a sig. line out of it.

LOLOL have at it my martial arts brother.

 

[Inkspill]

I am enjoying our discussion. I apologize for going off the discussion topic/focus. I tend to do that lol. I appreciate your passion and patience.

Anyway,

You said "The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic"

Can you explain or help me understand this? I disagree. natural actions are taken into account and I believe it necessary to teach with techniques like this create a base, much like writing, starting with block letters, then cursive and then shorthand.

Also, for the teaching method, having the techniques as they are is building off what is known, and various principles are taught in the technique, well now I see I'm going off topic now.

Ok, allow me to ask what specifically is not functional about the IP?

 

[ATACX GYM]

I am enjoying our discussion. I apologize for going off the discussion topic/focus. I tend to do that lol. I appreciate your passion and patience.

Anyway,

You said "The physical articulation of the IP is completely nonfunctional,totally unrealistic"

Can you explain or help me understand this? I disagree. natural actions are taken into account and I believe it necessary to teach with techniques like this create a base, much like writing, starting with block letters, then cursive and then shorthand.

Also, for the teaching method, having the techniques as they are is building off what is known, and various principles are taught in the technique, well now I see I'm going off topic now.

Ok, allow me to ask what specifically is not functional about the IP?

Yes,I can help to explain exactly what I mean regarding the complete and total nonfunctionality of the physical movements of the IP.I don't mean the techniques per se--if the TECHNIQUES of Kenpo were functionally compromised,I couldn't take those exact same techniques and find a way to make them functional and Kenpo as a whole would be very questionable in value unless it was actually more of a philosophy sans a specific body of techniques say like Bruce Lee's JKD--I mean the pedagogy,the teaching of the techniques from the base onward (stance,blocks,movement,attacks,etc). There is nothing that the IP does (actually fails to do) that the IP isn't many times superior at actually succeeding at.

Lemme give you an example:

The IP Alternating Maces,executed by a 10th dan GRANDMASTER:

Funtional Alternating Maces,executed by yours truly...merely a 5th dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MBEBgQTWlg&feature=related


Now,what I'm missing here is the video of the first part of instruction...perception,stance,movement,footwork,defensive and offensive training.But the articulation of the movements that I display are indicative of the extensive functional thought that went into the techniques PRIOR to inception and execution AND the refinements that occurred AFTER SPARRING with the techniques.There is one video clip were I do the Alt. Maces vs 5-6 separate pushes and against a live 360 degree Bull In The Ring drill which really brings it home.I do it standing sitting (to my good e-friend Marlon: Yes Marlon I really DO practice my techniques sitting and they do boil down to don't get killed mop the bad guy and if not run your azz off,ol) AND on the ground.In going back I see that my brother and my cousin never got around to puttin those 2 videos up onsite,despite their assurances to the contrary.That's okay,I'll reshoot them and put them up personally.My point is? The techniques (in this case Alternating Maces) are taughtin a way which first and foremost

1) Shows a complete and utter lack of comprehension of THE ATTACKS that are coming at the defender.Now,you don't even have to have a gajillion fights to understand the dynamics of a real world push.Truth is? You can go in your living room RIGHT NOW and have your buddy give you a good ole fashioned shove in the chest and start practicing THAT way,so even the excuse:"Ohh well the instructor has never fought before" is hogwash.But what really happens in far too many Kenpo and other studios is what we see in the video: sheer stupidity combined with lunacy. I mean...that guy allegedly doing a push looks like a freakin zombie giving a chest massage.And then that GM Joe dude gets tuh gruntin like he's doing something while showing HORRIBLE technique.I have WHITE BELTS who know more and do better with that technique than good ole GM Joe.Joe's uke showed: No real world energy,intention,or motion.

Functionally speaking,every attack should be a real attack.When you punch? You PUNCH.With n00bs,you don't have to move super fast or even fast.I have my n00bs start out at 25-50% speed.But it IS a punch.You miss? You get hit.Not hard,but you learn:BLOCK THAT PUNCH.When you swing that stick? Swing it with the real intention to hit and with the real movement TO hit.Not hard at first,but if you don't block? BONK.You learn:BLOCK THAT STICK.I break out with the hard rubber knives.Get tuh slashin.Block fails? SLASH. Doesn't hurt,but it drives the point homeO THE DISARM RIGHT.Even when moving slowly? The movements of the push should result in a REAL PUSH if allowed to make contact.Not a HARD push,but a REAL PUSH.From literally the first moment of the first day,we need to train our students that way.This attack will increase in speed,power deception and complexity as the defensive skill of our students increase.ONLY THIS METHOD CAN IMPART REAL WORLD SKILL AND CONFIDENCE IN DEFENDING AN ATTACK.

2) With a realistic ATTACK,we can NOW BUILD REALISTIC DEFENSES AND COUNTERS.This is massively important because our students begin building confidence in their ability to not only STOP or BLOCK a real world attack...THEY NOW KNOW THEY CAN STOP THE ATTACKER TOO.This,folks is ACTUAL fighting.NOT yet self-defense as a whole.If you stop the attacker's attack? He/she/they can keep attacking.If you stop their attack AND STOP THEM? No more attacking.You're safe now.


3) Now that you can recognize an attack and DEFEND the attack,it's now time to learn how to NOT BE THERE for an attacker to attack you in the first place.In my GYM? THIS IS SELF DEFENSE.If you're in a conflict,you did it wrong from the jump.You're FIGHTING now.We don't teach fighters.We teach martial artists adept in the art of self-defense.Once again,you CANNOT acquire this skill in the real world if you don't train this way.

Here's the best 3 videos on the Functional Method (what Bruce Lee called ALIVENESS) that I can find.I don't 100% agree with 100% of what Matt says,but I agree with over 90% of it over 90% of the time,so that's good enough.If you have questions after that? I'd be pleased to answer more specifically.But these videos should put us on the same page.

WHY ALIVENESS? -The most important video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#docid=4838722756738846126


DELIVERY SYSTEMS AND STYLES

ALIVE V DEAD PATTERNS AND ALIVE VS DEAD TRAINING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWfK6aqWiNU&feature=related


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2068450760833041053#docid=7892384548000318708

This is the gospel.It's not magic,it's not a huge revelation...we've known this for MILLENIA.However,the twin forces of intolerant traditionalism breeding ignorance and the greed of commercialism has effectively snatched the collective method of training real world martial arts in the USA of its validity.If we were to take this method and turn it on Kenpo Karate (like I have) the results would be revolutionary; hands down,we'd bridge the gap between traditional and modern arts while enjoying the benefits of both without being shackled bythe drawbacks and hindrances of either.We could and would show the public that you don't have to be a MMA guy to be in super shape,have fun,fight well,have terrific self confidence,wonderful discipline and character,and all that other stuff that the TMA and not MMA offers...plus you can and will do more than well against the MMA guys and growing number of MMA chicks.And that's BEFORE you whip out a stick,knife or gun...which you can ALSO use amazingly well thank you very freakin much.


I also recommend that you read Burton Richardson's incredible JKDU which is more palettable to us TMA guys.It's an INCREDIBLE vision and it's essentially what I've been doing with my brand of hybrid martial arts ( I just have alooot more material to draw from and very fierce street sensibilites that he lacks) long before I was aware of Burton's JKDU.

http://jkdunlimited.com/

 

[marlon]

Ras, I think it would clarify things if you videoed yourself teaching brand new student a default technique. Then,perhaps go over what you consider the trditional kenpo way of teaching a technique (to an advanced student so as not to confuse your new students). That would clarify what you are seeing and comparing. i have an impression that things are unclear in this discussion. For example Horton talks about learning the basics of a choke in one of the last video's. He seems to be saying learn the ideal phase then work on applying and then develop your own expression of the basic tecnique. Which is what many of the people arguing a different position from you seem to be saying but this is a video you put up to prove your point. That makes me think there may be an apple vs orange thing happeneing here.

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ras, I think it would clarify things if you videoed yourself teaching brand new student a default technique. Then,perhaps go over what you consider the trditional kenpo way of teaching a technique (to an advanced student so as not to confuse your new students). That would clarify what you are seeing and comparing. i have an impression that things are unclear in this discussion. For example Horton talks about learning the basics of a choke in one of the last video's. He seems to be saying learn the ideal phase then work on applying and then develop your own expression of the basic tecnique. Which is what many of the people arguing a different position from you seem to be saying but this is a video you put up to prove your point. That makes me think there may be an apple vs orange thing happeneing here.

Respectfully,
marlon

What may be happening is that some people don't have a "functional" understanding of BOTH the IP aaaand the FM.I will respond more in depth a little later...

 

[Inkspill]

Mr Polanzo's level of skill is not indicative of all 10ths. You can't say Polanzo's skill level and rank is due to a faulty ideal phase.

I've seen lots of ****** Kenpo on youtube, I've never thought to myself "well their Kenpo sucks, better train the ATACX method (soon on DVD right?) No, I think damn, better make sure I'm crisp and my **** is correct and practice so I don't look like that

Polanzo at least executes the technique stepping back with the correct foot

Level of skill comes down to perfection of movement, I am perfecting movement using the methods we study at my school. What can you teach me without first making the basics correct?

I studied at an art for 5 years that never studied and perfected basics. And it was ********, it didn't work. Without being correct on the fundamental foundation, the whole building is faulty.

Now you want me to train your method and you don't execute the technique correctly, do you know why we step back with the left foot? Do you execute the downward horizontal forearm block correctly? Is your timing correct? Did you bring his hands together? I look for these basic principles. The ideal phase is to study these principles, not a "this is what you will do in a self defense situation." You lose sight of that and try to turn this into a sport. You talk about, I could go here, then here, theni do this and this, you are creating a new Ideal Phase, but you're still using the ideal phase. Ideal phase with punching mitts, IP with a takedown, etc. And still, change it paint it prime it, if the basics are incorrect it won't work. The technique is a study of the principles and concepts. if you know what is being taught and being learned, "the why's", you wouldn't be so quick to throw it all out for your "better" version.

It is your lack of understanding and your doubt which leads you to seek for something better. The system is there all along but you haven't been taught/learned it with that level of understanding, at the least you have doubt. My teacher removes doubt, explains the things we are doing, has correct basics, teaches the details, teaches with an organized system and method, logical and progressive. You're basically asking me to leave harvard and come learn at the junior community college instead.

I mean no disrespect, I'm being direct and not tiptoeing around, which I appreciate from you as well. I think it is great we can be direct and have this conversation

 

[marlon]

Voice is not well translated over this media, so I, too appreciate no one taking offense at direct communication. It is an important question , "how do you train the basics?" and I am sure we are going to get a good answer from Ras that will probably promote more thought. One point about the techniques, though, as I am not sure how AK looks at it but kempo is the technique. I was testing a student for their first intermediate level belt and when they were attacked by the black belt with a grab, shaking them around a trip and taken down...well let's just say it was a good thing that that was not a make or break moment for the test. afterwards, I like to take the opportunity to teach. So, we discuss the test, what happened, what was expected, skill sets, direction for imrovement...That particular student asked what to do if they were attacked like that again, because they did not have a technique for such an attack. My response was to apologize because obviously i had not done a good job of teaching them. He had a technique for such an attack, it's called kempo. the I told him that it was his job to learn that and see that in every moment of class and practice. I thankked him for making me a better teacher.
The crap about, well I have a technique for situation X and Y and...is ridiculous for the way I teach kempo. Kempo is the response we use. the techniques and forms are part of the way we train kempo.
end of little rant

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Mr Polanzo's level of skill is not indicative of all 10ths. You can't say Polanzo's skill level and rank is due to a faulty ideal phase.

I've seen lots of ****** Kenpo on youtube, I've never thought to myself "well their Kenpo sucks, better train the ATACX method (soon on DVD right?) No, I think damn, better make sure I'm crisp and my **** is correct and practice so I don't look like that

Polanzo at least executes the technique stepping back with the correct foot

Level of skill comes down to perfection of movement, I am perfecting movement using the methods we study at my school. What can you teach me without first making the basics correct?

I studied at an art for 5 years that never studied and perfected basics. And it was ********, it didn't work. Without being correct on the fundamental foundation, the whole building is faulty.

Now you want me to train your method and you don't execute the technique correctly, do you know why we step back with the left foot? Do you execute the downward horizontal forearm block correctly? Is your timing correct? Did you bring his hands together? I look for these basic principles. The ideal phase is to study these principles, not a "this is what you will do in a self defense situation." You lose sight of that and try to turn this into a sport. You talk about, I could go here, then here, theni do this and this, you are creating a new Ideal Phase, but you're still using the ideal phase. Ideal phase with punching mitts, IP with a takedown, etc. And still, change it paint it prime it, if the basics are incorrect it won't work. The technique is a study of the principles and concepts. if you know what is being taught and being learned, "the why's", you wouldn't be so quick to throw it all out for your "better" version.

It is your lack of understanding and your doubt which leads you to seek for something better. The system is there all along but you haven't been taught/learned it with that level of understanding, at the least you have doubt. My teacher removes doubt, explains the things we are doing, has correct basics, teaches the details, teaches with an organized system and method, logical and progressive. You're basically asking me to leave harvard and come learn at the junior community college instead.

I mean no disrespect, I'm being direct and not tiptoeing around, which I appreciate from you as well. I think it is great we can be direct and have this conversation

^^^SEE? I LIKE THIS GUY TOO.THAT'S HOW YOU TALK TO A MAN.I APPRECIATE THAT.

Okay...now here's a basic point of fact man: if you're practicing something nonfunctional? Your basics suck.Period.Because if anything is the case? Your basics should translate DIRECTLY into what you do EXACTLY how you do it.There is no way that you can start with the ideal and arrive with the functional.Tell an Olympic sprinter to "ideally" sprint.He'll give you the "functional" middle finger.In fact? The in-depth sciences of human performance are the most detailed basics around and we functional folks use it RELIGIOUSLY aaaaand SCIENTIFICALLY but most importantly--wait for it--FUNCTIONALLY.So the moment you separate functionality from whatever you do? You condemn whatever you do to permanent inferiority.Period and that's all.There is no way to "ideally" jab.You delve into the depths and details,the art and science of jabbing,you progress step by step in complexity difficulty and resistance and pow! You have tremendously mechanically sound,potent,functional jabbing happening.You jab EXACTLY how you've trained.It's the Functional Model which raised the art and science of training to dizzying heights,with the most intimate analysis of form and functioning and the conjoining of the two in heretofore unknown levels of performance.The "ideal" doesn't even have an "ideal" as to how to bedazzle with training methodologies CAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE THAT'S FUNCTIONAL.


When you train functionally? You minutely analyze everything and THEN YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU DO IS ON POINT BY ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SIMPLE YET HIGHLY DETAILED BASICS AND THEN FIGHT EXACTLY PRECISELY HOW WE MOVE AND TRAIN.You don't NEED to make excuses in a brain dead futile attempt to explain why you're not fighting EXACTLY how you do the Ideal Phase.You're not fighting that way because it sucks it's unrealistic and it'd be like someone is returning your donkey to your outstretched arms...because you'd get your *** handed to you.Reliably.

Sooo...me using focus mitts makes you think that I'm training primarily for sports? Lol.I could unveil some things from my past that would debunk that but I have a better idea: I guess that since the IDF is training Krav Maga using sportive protective gear,the Isreali Defense Forces are training to enter the local point fighting or MMA tourney.They must be gettin their sport on.

Guess that since SWAT and other guys wear Tony Blauer's gear,they must be training for the UFC.

I guess that Frank Cucci,former Navy SEAL from NAVY SEAL TEAM 6,trains for sport because he used MT pads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7eww1Julw&feature=related

You get the point now.Your assumptions are fatally flawed.Just like the physical articulation of the IP.That mess is anus.Period.I'm saying this again: if you fight in the way that the IP advocates? You suck and you'll get your hat handed to you.Deservedly so.There is no way to pretty that up and build a wall of flowery words that can and will hide the blunt unstoppable reality of the anusness of the IP's physical articulation.Period.

Btw when I say your basics suck when you do it the IP way? And when you say "at least Polanzo stepped back with the same foot" and similar stuff which makes me lol? You know what I say to that?

Look at SUPREME GRANDMASTER ED PARKER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SIQ7ONlE1I&feature=channel_video_title

Look at me here:

You have no leg to stand on.GMEP did exactly the opposite of what the IP indicates,and he did it because he took the techniques and analyzed them by putting these techniques in the context of street combat.Now,I only just today got that video from Jim Miller's people from KenpoKarate365,which is his peeps' Youtube Channel.As you can see? The video of me doing the Alternating Maces a year ago...and I put this technique in the context of omg A SD SCENARIO AND LOOKED AT THE MANY WAYS TO APPLY IT.That's functional.And guess what? Neither GMEP or I looked like the IP.We looked totally different BECAUSE WE'RE TOTALLY FUNCTIONAL.Again...you have no leg to stand on.I reached on my own with no connection to how GMEP moves a very similar expression.Now find an IP like that.You can't? Because there isn't one? Awrighty then.You.Have.No.Leg.To.Stand.On.

Btw I don't care if you train like me or not.You wanna train the "ideal"? Fine.Goodie goodie gum drops and graham crackers for you.No prob with me.Have at it and have fun and wish you well,my martial arts brother.But the moment you say:"The IP is functional" or something like that? Weeellll see we have the empirical proof of the contrary,and championing te IP as in any way valid? It's a delusion; it's dangerous to the many good people who will fall for that hokum and they could find out in a dark alley somewhere with their life blood spilling out of them that they were hoodwinked.

Point blank: I'm looking at the physical articulation of the IP.It is anus.There is no justification for its anusness.There is no defense that can withstand even the most half-hearted analysis by a brain dead rock.IT. IS.THE.PHYSICAL.ARTICULATION.OF.THE.IP.THAT.IS.HORRIFICALLY.NONFUNCTIONAL.IN.ANY.REGARD.
Nonfunctional basics which suck bad.Nonfunctional training methods which are nonexistent or suck bad.Nonfunctional fighting which sucks worst of all.There is no way that such a combination of suckitude will give rise to any elevated discussion on anything other than the overwhelming gluteus that the technique is.There is no way that you can make anything other gluteus out of this kind of gluteus.

And lastly Inkspill man? You said Polanzo stepped back with the orrect foot.You're wrong man.The "correct foot" is WHATEVER FOOT YOU NEED to step out of the way of the attack and avoid the attack.THAT'S the correct foot.The circumstances and environment dictate your response.You ever think that you might have to execute the Alternating Maces or whatever stepping in a direction OTHER than the one you were shown in the IP? Apparently not.What if you can't step anywhere? What if you're seated? What if there is traffic preventing you from stepping back with "the correct foot" or what if you are in a parking lot or stairwell or amidst a crowd and BANG! It's on and and it's fighting time.What if your back is to the wall or the drop of a roof is behind you (not so far fetched,Inkspill; one of my teens resorted to this technique while fighting on a rooftop) and you CAN'T step back? If you trained functionally you would have seen INSTANTLY the fatal flaws in your argument because you would have been trained in a reality tha prevents your misconceptions and misunderstandings. You would not mistake the presence for training equipment for the mandate of sport-only or sport-oriented technique or training.You would not make a contention that the movements of Ed Parker himself and their near identical similarity with mine would called upon to completely annihilate and refute.

You would have known better,shown better,done better,and BE better...if you were training functionally.

But you don't have to if you don't want to.And that's cool with me.If you want to train the IP for whatever reason you wish? Go for it.But contentions that the PHYSICAL ARTCULATION OF THE IP--meaning that stuff thatwe see EXACTLY AS IT'S SHOWN--teaches intricate functionable beneficial real world basics in ANY way...most especially in any way that equals or trumps the FM? Hell no.The real world slaughters that contention in every factual way.That's a contention that needs to be challenged and crushed straightway for the benefit of everyone...you too.And anyone reading this post.

 

[Inkspill]

^^^SEE? I LIKE THIS GUY TOO.THAT'S HOW YOU TALK TO A MAN.I APPRECIATE THAT.

; ) I'm going to address your points as best I can, again thanks for the perspective and conversation

Okay...now here's a basic point of fact man: if you're practicing something nonfunctional? Your basics suck.Period.Because if anything is the case? Your basics should translate DIRECTLY into what you do EXACTLY how you do it.

my basics are translating directly, so I'm not practicing non functional stuff. I think maybe we are coming from the same place or at least we're both using a functional method, but I perhaps am finding your points to be directed toward my art, and maybe your points are more directed toward the junky Kenpo?

There is no way that you can start with the ideal and arrive with the functional.Tell an Olympic sprinter to "ideally" sprint.He'll give you the "functional" middle finger.In fact? The in-depth sciences of human performance are the most detailed basics around and we functional folks use it RELIGIOUSLY aaaaand SCIENTIFICALLY but most importantly--wait for it--FUNCTIONALLY.So the moment you separate functionality from whatever you do? You condemn whatever you do to permanent inferiority.Period and that's all.There is no way to "ideally" jab.

we don't ideally jab around my school. it may be that we are already using functional methods like I mentioned before, or maybe because I've boxed before..?

You delve into the depths and details,the art and science of jabbing,you progress step by step in complexity difficulty and resistance and pow! You have tremendously mechanically sound,potent,functional jabbing happening.You jab EXACTLY how you've trained.It's the Functional Model which raised the art and science of training to dizzying heights,with the most intimate analysis of form and functioning and the conjoining of the two in heretofore unknown levels of performance.The "ideal" doesn't even have an "ideal" as to how to bedazzle with training methodologies CAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE THAT'S FUNCTIONAL.

we aren't ideally practicing the basics, but we are practicing techniques in ways like "here is a possible situation for you to practice the principles and concepts, when it comes to a self defense situation you will respond with whatever is appropriate to the situation"

When you train functionally? You minutely analyze everything and THEN YOU CAN PROVE THAT WHAT YOU DO IS ON POINT BY ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SIMPLE YET HIGHLY DETAILED BASICS AND THEN FIGHT EXACTLY PRECISELY HOW WE MOVE AND TRAIN.You don't NEED to make excuses in a brain dead futile attempt to explain why you're not fighting EXACTLY how you do the Ideal Phase.You're not fighting that way because it sucks it's unrealistic and it'd be like someone is returning your donkey to your outstretched arms...because you'd get your *** handed to you.Reliably.

again, I'm thinking we might have more similar methods than perceived. we have resisting opponents and we work the techniques making the movements work. this prepares us to make the opponent move under our intention.

Sooo...me using focus mitts makes you think that I'm training primarily for sports? Lol.I could unveil some things from my past that would debunk that but I have a better idea: I guess that since the IDF is training Krav Maga using sportive protective gear,the Isreali Defense Forces are training to enter the local point fighting or MMA tourney.They must be gettin their sport on.

Guess that since SWAT and other guys wear Tony Blauer's gear,they must be training for the UFC.

I guess that Frank Cucci,former Navy SEAL from NAVY SEAL TEAM 6,trains for sport because he used MT pads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj7eww1Julw&feature=related

I'm not saying that strike pads makes it a sport endeavor at all. more that I felt you were taking a sport approach rather than self defense. if the guy pushes you that far back, why not just leave at that point, why stand off against him in a fighting stance, why let him push you?

You get the point now.Your assumptions are fatally flawed.Just like the physical articulation of the IP.That mess is anus.Period.I'm saying this again: if you fight in the way that the IP advocates? You suck and you'll get your hat handed to you.Deservedly so.There is no way to pretty that up and build a wall of flowery words that can and will hide the blunt unstoppable reality of the anusness of the IP's physical articulation.Period.

agreed, it's not intended to be your self defense response.

Btw when I say your basics suck when you do it the IP way? And when you say "at least Polanzo stepped back with the same foot" and similar stuff which makes me lol? You know what I say to that?

Look at SUPREME GRANDMASTER ED PARKER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SIQ7ONlE1I&feature=channel_video_title

Look at me here:

You have no leg to stand on.GMEP did exactly the opposite of what the IP indicates,and he did it because he took the techniques and analyzed them by putting these techniques in the context of street combat.Now,I only just today got that video from Jim Miller's people from KenpoKarate365,which is his peeps' Youtube Channel.As you can see? The video of me doing the Alternating Maces a year ago...and I put this technique in the context of omg A SD SCENARIO AND LOOKED AT THE MANY WAYS TO APPLY IT.That's functional.And guess what? Neither GMEP or I looked like the IP.We looked totally different BECAUSE WE'RE TOTALLY FUNCTIONAL.Again...you have no leg to stand on.I reached on my own with no connection to how GMEP moves a very similar expression.Now find an IP like that.You can't? Because there isn't one? Awrighty then.You.Have.No.Leg.To.Stand.On.

I meant that you stepped back with the incorrect leg, incorrect in the ideal phase. do you understand the why's of the technique? why do we step back with the left leg? answer me that at least.

Btw I don't care if you train like me or not.You wanna train the "ideal"? Fine.Goodie goodie gum drops and graham crackers for you.No prob with me.Have at it and have fun and wish you well,my martial arts brother.But the moment you say:"The IP is functional" or something like that? Weeellll see we have the empirical proof of the contrary,and championing te IP as in any way valid? It's a delusion; it's dangerous to the many good people who will fall for that hokum and they could find out in a dark alley somewhere with their life blood spilling out of them that they were hoodwinked.

fair enough. I have had the b.s. and the quality, I can feel the difference. I'm sorry I went into the other stuff about you making a program for your stuff, that was off topic and I felt like I was being "sold" some snake oil, etc.

Point blank: I'm looking at the physical articulation of the IP.It is anus.There is no justification for its anusness.There is no defense that can withstand even the most half-hearted analysis by a brain dead rock.IT. IS.THE.PHYSICAL.ARTICULATION.OF.THE.IP.THAT.IS.HORRIFICALLY.NONFUNCTIONAL.IN.ANY.REGARD.
Nonfunctional basics which suck bad.Nonfunctional training methods which are nonexistent or suck bad.Nonfunctional fighting which sucks worst of all.There is no way that such a combination of suckitude will give rise to any elevated discussion on anything other than the overwhelming gluteus that the technique is.There is no way that you can make anything other gluteus out of this kind of gluteus.

And lastly Inkspill man? You said Polanzo stepped back with the orrect foot.You're wrong man.The "correct foot" is WHATEVER FOOT YOU NEED to step out of the way of the attack and avoid the attack.THAT'S the correct foot.The circumstances and environment dictate your response.You ever think that you might have to execute the Alternating Maces or whatever stepping in a direction OTHER than the one you were shown in the IP? Apparently not.What if you can't step anywhere? What if you're seated? What if there is traffic preventing you from stepping back with "the correct foot" or what if you are in a parking lot or stairwell or amidst a crowd and BANG! It's on and and it's fighting time.What if your back is to the wall or the drop of a roof is behind you (not so far fetched,Inkspill; one of my teens resorted to this technique while fighting on a rooftop) and you CAN'T step back? If you trained functionally you would have seen INSTANTLY the fatal flaws in your argument because you would have been trained in a reality tha prevents your misconceptions and misunderstandings. You would not mistake the presence for training equipment for the mandate of sport-only or sport-oriented technique or training.You would not make a contention that the movements of Ed Parker himself and their near identical similarity with mine would called upon to completely annihilate and refute.

I agree that in a self defense situation, one should do whatever is necessary and fit the situation, but I believe in the process of starting with a fixed trainable method to study the movements. there are reasons behind the techniques! concepts and principles, movements that are all useful, and the techniques are a way of studying a situation in which this might occur. so now if somebody goes to shove me or grab me, etc, I will respond with whatever natural reaction occurs, training the techniques refines my movements and teaches me words with which to form sentences, etc.

You would have known better,shown better,done better,and BE better...if you were training functionally.

But you don't have to if you don't want to.And that's cool with me.If you want to train the IP for whatever reason you wish? Go for it.But contentions that the PHYSICAL ARTCULATION OF THE IP--meaning that stuff thatwe see EXACTLY AS IT'S SHOWN--teaches intricate functionable beneficial real world basics in ANY way...most especially in any way that equals or trumps the FM? Hell no.The real world slaughters that contention in every factual way.That's a contention that needs to be challenged and crushed straightway for the benefit of everyone...you too.And anyone reading this post.

again, I think there may be some similar things we are doing and there are points I agree with you on.. I am enjoying our conversation. too bad we aren't in the same area so we could discuss in person and perhaps explore/train some various methods and compare

 

[ATACX GYM]

; ) I'm going to address your points as best I can, again thanks for the perspective and conversation



my basics are translating directly, so I'm not practicing non functional stuff. I think maybe we are coming from the same place or at least we're both using a functional method, but I perhaps am finding your points to be directed toward my art, and maybe your points are more directed toward the junky Kenpo?



we don't ideally jab around my school. it may be that we are already using functional methods like I mentioned before, or maybe because I've boxed before..?





I agree that in a self defense situation, one should do whatever is necessary and fit the situation, but I believe in the process of starting with a fixed trainable method to study the movements. there are reasons behind the techniques! concepts and principles, movements that are all useful, and the techniques are a way of studying a situation in which this might occur. so now if somebody goes to shove me or grab me, etc, I will respond with whatever natural reaction occurs, training the techniques refines my movements and teaches me words with which to form sentences, etc.



again, I think there may be some similar things we are doing and there are points I agree with you on.. I am enjoying our conversation. too bad we aren't in the same area so we could discuss in person and perhaps explore/train some various methods and compare

I am NOT dissin Kenpo.I'm Kenpo,lol.As I've stated numerous times before,I don't think Kenpo sucks or anything.The discussion came about because some reviewers of my videos proceeded to pillory and disparage it because my variants didn't exactly adhere to their interpretation of what the IP is (nvm that their interpretation isn't universal).From there the conversation centered around the IP and specifically upon the physical articulation of the movements,their functionality,and their correlation to the elevated principles behind these movements...which find a parallel in all functionally trained martial systems and sports.I pilloried the IP as being nonfunctional.Not Kenpo.Not your Kenpo or anyone else's Kenpo.I said the IP sucks nonfunctional anal regions.It has zero correlation to any elevated or refined principles that are supposed to be had by performing the IP in this sucktastic way.It'd be like somebody telling you that by trying to jab like a epileptic T.Rex having a spazz attack you'll learn the secrets of Ali's jab.No you won't.You'll learn how to jab like a spastic T.Rex.This common sense assertion was me with aghast screeches and "oh-no-he-didn't" type posts.Yeah well...all that comes to a simple empirical test: Do EXACTLY what the IP shows you to do when you're under attack.Observe the annihilation that you receive.Now do EXACTLY what I show you to dbserve the annihilation that you level upon yon foolish mortals who mess with thee.And then the magnificent purveyors of the written word and senior power lords of posts came onsite and said that the IP works and that we're children.No,the IP doesn't work and that's that...so I asked people to show themselves SPARRING with EXACTLY the techniques that they show in the IP.Nobody took up the challenge because public annihilation would ensue and we all know it.That's when that crap about:"Oh,there are lessons to be learned in the IP that you apparently are not intellectually keen enough to grasp,dear Padawon.Listen to the Jedi Council" started.There ARE lessons in the IP.Those lessons boil down to the multiple levels of anus that it is."Oh the IP are minilabs designated to initiate discussion." They will generate discussions and it'll be something like:"This ***** SUCKS!! Screw Karate aaaand martial arts.Let's get a gun." or "This ***** SUCKS!! Let's go to the MMA gym or Muay Thai or bjj or wresling or Judo or boxing or something that WORKS!" The end result is that Kenpo loses.Or worse? Some delusional people will try The Rectal Orangutan and the Parsimonious Penguin because Sensei Contract-and-Cash told them that it will work;and discover in a dark alleyway somewhere with their blood leaking that they'd been swindled.

That is NOT funny. That is NOT martial arts.That is NOT functional.THAT IS THE IP AS IT'S CURRENTLY BEING CONVEYED.


The physical aspects of the IP should be entirely scrapped or dramatically upgraded and functionalized,and in the process? You will learn all the intricate requisite basics,you'll learn the ins and the outs of it.You'll discover that every possible benefit you thought may flow from the fake goofy nonfunctional stuff is actually and can only be actually the sole province of the REAL stuff; the Functional/Alive Method.

I didn't draw opinions about how you or anyone else trains.I have NO IDEA how you train.If you like it? Good enough for me.My entire focus has been the fact that there is no elevation of intellect,perception, technique or principles to be had by performing anus manuevers other than an intimacy with anusness.On the other hand...there is no form of basics that is more in depth,intricate,direct,fun,applicable and magnificent than that of the Functional/Alive Method.In fact? The science and art of human performance from physics to kinesiology,biomechanics,psychology,exercise physiology, and a bunch of other stuff is defined and delved into by the Functional Method.Ed Parker Sr. knew this and that's why you can see him doing exactly as I did (long before I ever saw a video clip of Mr.Parker Sr. doing ANYTHING) in my Alternating Maces video.What tickles me so much is that when Mr.Parker talks about "having one definition" when you step one way and how "the same movement has another definition" when you step or do it another way? That is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY what I do.It is THE HEART of functionality.See the jab.Learn the intricacies of the jab.Practice the jab.Correctly.LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF TIMES.NEVER STOP.Spar with the jab,and do it exactly how you were taught...against skilled,conditioned,focused and talented resistance.I do that with Kenpo and maybe you do too (I take it a bit farther with a few other stuffbthat I do but that's not germane to the point here).

None of the functional stuff you do OUTSIDE the IP--which is nonfunctional--suddenly prevents the IP from being nonfunctional.It's still anus.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Voice is not well translated over this media, so I, too appreciate no one taking offense at direct communication. It is an important question , "how do you train the basics?" and I am sure we are going to get a good answer from Ras that will probably promote more thought. One point about the techniques, though, as I am not sure how AK looks at it but kempo is the technique. I was testing a student for their first intermediate level belt and when they were attacked by the black belt with a grab, shaking them around a trip and taken down...well let's just say it was a good thing that that was not a make or break moment for the test. afterwards, I like to take the opportunity to teach. So, we discuss the test, what happened, what was expected, skill sets, direction for imrovement...That particular student asked what to do if they were attacked like that again, because they did not have a technique for such an attack. My response was to apologize because obviously i had not done a good job of teaching them. He had a technique for such an attack, it's called kempo. the I told him that it was his job to learn that and see that in every moment of class and practice. I thankked him for making me a better teacher.
The crap about, well I have a technique for situation X and Y and...is ridiculous for the way I teach kempo. Kempo is the response we use. the techniques and forms are part of the way we train kempo.
end of little rant

Respectfully,
Marlon

^^^This is EXACTLY right.This is ALSO a CARDINAL aspect of FUNCTIONALISM.If,for instance,you can't do the Alternating Maces in conjunction with any other block than the inside block or you can't do it in any other position other than standing and facing your opponent etc.? You CAN'T DO ALTERNATING MACES.If you don't train the proper basic realities of a particular technique (like chances are very high that the pushing attack in Alternating Maces will LAND AND PROPEL YOU OFF BALANCE,or the reality that the exact same block used in Alter.Ma. will work vs punches weapons and throw objects so train all of them) we will discover what we're missing under fire.But if we keep a Functional training method in our gyms? We're likely to find the problem IN THE GYM and NOT have it sprung on us IN THE STREET. Lo and behold,look at what Marlon did.He saw his student having problems,he discussed the matter,addressed the issue and sent the student back into the fray again.Guess what? Marlon armed the kid with functional knowledge,which will lead to functional training and success v the attack that he faced.If Marlon did what too many defenders of the IP do--teach the kid ANOTHER technique THAT WILL FAIL because it WASN'T TRAINED FUNCTIONALLY--the kid would get thumped again.And this cycle of thumpery would continue--with Marlon teaching the kid nonfunctional techniques that speedily become compromised by the reality of combat yet again--until the kid gets discouraged and quits karate altogether,leaves Marlon's gym for another one like MT or bjj or MMA),or just does something else noncombative altogether.

But Marlon did the functional thing.He realized straightway that the kid needed to understand that KEMPO IS HIS TECHNIQUE and shouldered the responsibility of passing that knowledge on better.Marlon will then teach the kid functionally and the kid will perform functionally and sucessfully.YAY MARLON.That's whassup.

And if the student isn't a kid? My bad.Please substitute the term "student" in all areas where KID pops up.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Now that I know more of the history of how the IP came about thanks to Doc's post about this matter in THE IP thread? I see that I was every bit as right as I proclaimed. Which means that DTS is clearly Motion Kenpo of the nonfunctional variety. If you can't fight with it EXACTLY AS YOU TRAIN WITH IT...and you CAN'T...then it's dys-or-non-functional. It's not working like that.