Technique Discussion: Dropping The Storm & 5 Swords

[ATACX GYM]

I have certainly seen it, but at least in the FMA I learned it was a "oh crap, I am so far behind on time that I don't even have time to move, must stop knife from cutting me, get block up" and the risk from the other (potentially knife wielding) hand is just what i have to accept so I don't get hit by this one. The other is that we don't often practice against giant haymaker knife attacks because our assumption is a trained, skilled attacker, one who won't likely give you such an opportunity. Basically, if you can do anything else, you do it. Mostly I show that defense from the attackers viewpoint of how to completely mess up the defender, it isn't something we want to encourage.

This is also what I have learned via stick and knife fighting.

 

[ATACX GYM]

To tell you the truth, yes, I think they would! Whe dealing with knife defense the rules change as far as I'm concerned. At that point the whole defense become a question of damage limitation, so my focus becomes my exit and if there is no alternative my focus becomes the knife itself. If this is the case, a control of the wrist on the inside is a viable technique.



Again, the block is dangerously flawed. This is Muay Boran. If a practitioner of Muay Thai uses this block in the ring , it would be a rare occurance or the fighter would be a beginner who was probably trained in another system. Trust me I've learned the hard way by trying to pull off down ward blocks while sparring experienced Thai fighters.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are some people who can pull off almost any technique. I would never advocate an aerial ax kick, in any situation. I was watching Mr. White's new DVD a few weeks ago (excellent training video btw) and saw Jamie Matthews pull this off with success in a kickboxing tournament. Mr. Matthews is extremely talented, he is the exeption rather than the rule.

I pulled off a jumping switch-axe kick in sparring and in tournaments several times.Would I call it a high percentage technique? NOPE.I agree with ya here man.However,the low blocks and whatnot are highly effective,they're just far better for very close range combat and stuff like blocking people from snatching your wallet.They also have the distinct advantage of not giving a larger taller opponent the advantage of siezing your shin/knee/leg (which most of us MT guys use to check a kick) than your arm.You're more likely to retain your balance with both feet on the ground than you are with one leg off the ground.

There are pro's and con's for each side of this argument.Me? I use the blocks shown in this video when in very close range and/or limited space and combine it with evasive body movements.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I pulled off a jumping switch-axe kick in sparring and in tournaments several times.Would I call it a high percentage technique? NOPE.I agree with ya here man.However,the low blocks and whatnot are highly effective,they're just far better for very close range combat and stuff like blocking people from snatching your wallet.They also have the distinct advantage of not giving a larger taller opponent the advantage of siezing your shin/knee/leg (which most of us MT guys use to check a kick) than your arm.You're more likely to retain your balance with both feet on the ground than you are with one leg off the ground.
.

Yes, as I said the downward block against a front kick is what I advise against. There are a few examples where the downward block may be effective. Downward blocks against kicks are suicide when considering the follow up of the opponant. They really should not be taught this way. Being the dense crettin that I am, it took me several days to get out of this habit and I'm sure I lost a good few brain cells over it.

 

[jks9199]

OK, we can agree to disagree then. This technique is designed to show a response to a specific attack to neutralize it. There are other techniques in the system that show other ways to deal with a roundhouse attack that doesn't "turn your back to his left".

What amazes me, is I've seen this same defense in some the FMA's. Think they would use it when defending against a knife if it was such a crappy defense?

Video showing the downblock as practiced in Muay Boran before it became a ring sport (muay thai).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCyD0q7a4GU&feature=related

Is it possible that Dropping the Storm is also designed to show and teach an underlying principle or strategy as much as the specific response to a roundhouse bomb like that? Just food for thought... but something I've noticed when I look at many "strange" Kenpo techniques.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Is it possible that Dropping the Storm is also designed to show and teach an underlying principle or strategy as much as the specific response to a roundhouse bomb like that? Just food for thought... but something I've noticed when I look at many "strange" Kenpo techniques.

First off? Love the quotes in your sig.

And it's possible that DTS may also be designed to teach an underlying principle or strategy but there's a muuuch better way to do it.Basically,any idea that follows the "Ideal Phase" technique is bankrupt due to the fact that the "Ideal Phase" is nonfunctional or very barely functional in practically every regard.Functional strategies and principles require a largely functional base.The Ideal Phase lacks functionality,and therefore functionally fails at conveying underlying principles and strategies.

 

[MJS]

Trust me brutha,I have already had this discussion and it's very interesting.I sparred with it,as my videos prove.The bottom line? Punisher73 is right in a very specific regard: IF you are faced with someone who throws THAT EXACT omg whompalicious roundhouse of doom at you AND steps through with the right leg? The technique as written WORKS PERFECTLY.

The problem,however,is EXACTLY what you've noted,yorkshirelad: that exact sequence of technique almost never happens period even from unskilled people...and it is almost a 100% guaranteed likelihood that it will NEVER happen from ANYONE who's trained ANYTHING with ANY REAL SKILL AT ALL.Therefore,in the real world,the functionality of DTS is limited to ONLY the "Ideal Phase". My idea is to REPLACE this "Ideal Phase" with a "FUNCTIONAL Phase" that allows maximum performance by incorporating the primary "what-if" scenarios we find in civilian self-defense ranges (which again,are: long weapons range,kickboxing/standing,Clinch,Up-Seated where one party is standing the other is seated,Seated-Seated where both parties are seated,Up-Down where one party is grounded the other is not,Ground-ground where both parties are grounded,Multifight,Armed Variants of all of the above,Escape from all of the above,Rescue innocents/property/loved ones from all of the above,Rescue and Escape from all of the above) and rigorously test EACH TECHNIQUE SPARRING AGAINST EACH OF THESE SCENARIOS BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE BEFORE TEACHING THEM TO STUDENTS.

The results will be a very very obviously functional model that our students and other teachers will adapt to themselves anyway (as they should).But there will be NO DOUBT that the technique works.Could you imagine a boxing coach or Navy SEAL instructor going through all these histrionics about music and ideal phases? Truth is THEY WILL TEACH YOU WHAT WORKS NOW.As they SHOULD.Btw,the Ideal Phase has extremely limited functionality so Position Recognition is almost certain to fail in the real world because the Ideal Phase DOESN'T PRACTICE real world positions SO THEY WON'T RECOGNIZE IT.That's just true,and we need to acknowledge that and make the adjustments.Period point blank.

And I mean that with ultimate respect,punisher73 and the other very knowledgeable poster whose name escapes me but wrote an excellent response using music as metaphor and adding the fact that GGMEP loved music.

So, all that being said, this tells me that....

a) As Dave said, we'll never pull off an IP technique. Which leads me to say once again, that this is a perfect reason why we dont need 100+ techs to tech us how to defend ourselves. But thats another thread.

b) the techs are simply a model and the student needs to figure out how to apply things from that model.

c) but if the odds of someone attacking in the IP is slim to none, why teach the IP in the first place, when you can do as Ras suggests, as just replace the IP with something functional from the get go.

d) we probably could teach the IP as a base, to give the student an example, but instead of harping on that IP forever, start having them explore and breakdown the tech, adding in various methods of attacking, thus coming up with something functional.

 

[ATACX GYM]

So, all that being said, this tells me that....

a) As Dave said, we'll never pull off an IP technique. Which leads me to say once again, that this is a perfect reason why we dont need 100+ techs to tech us how to defend ourselves. But thats another thread.

b) the techs are simply a model and the student needs to figure out how to apply things from that model.

c) but if the odds of someone attacking in the IP is slim to none, why teach the IP in the first place, when you can do as Ras suggests, as just replace the IP with something functional from the get go.

d) we probably could teach the IP as a base, to give the student an example, but instead of harping on that IP forever, start having them explore and breakdown the tech, adding in various methods of attacking, thus coming up with something functional.

Beautifully summed up,brutha

 

[punisher73]

I have certainly seen it, but at least in the FMA I learned it was a "oh crap, I am so far behind on time that I don't even have time to move, must stop knife from cutting me, get block up" and the risk from the other (potentially knife wielding) hand is just what i have to accept so I don't get hit by this one. The other is that we don't often practice against giant haymaker knife attacks because our assumption is a trained, skilled attacker, one who won't likely give you such an opportunity. Basically, if you can do anything else, you do it. Mostly I show that defense from the attackers viewpoint of how to completely mess up the defender, it isn't something we want to encourage.

Now, you understand more of the scenario DTS is based on. Again, there are other defenses against a roundhouse shown that involve other solutions that don't do the double block. This is designed exactly as an "oh crap, if I don't do this, I'm gonna get my head taken off"

 

[marlon]

I would offer this (even though some may find it abrasive): If you are trying to execute a technique in the Ideal Phase against any incoming attack, you have missed the point of kenpo entirely.

Mr. Parker was a big fan of music and musicianship as an analogy/metaphor. One learns music by learning the language (ABCDEFG, treble, base, pianissimo, forte, 3/4 and 4/4 timing), learning the keyboard if they are a pianist, reading music, etc. One develops the skills of tickling the ivories by spending hours running scales. One learns which notes go together well -- and which don't -- by learning to play (from the ideal phase of the sheet music) classics. Bach; Beethoven; mebbe get some jazz guys in there too as your tastes start looking outside the vanilla box.

But when you pack up your keyboard and head to a jam session, and are in the middle of a rhapsodic riff, you don't go back to running scales or playing Ode to Joy in up-tempo. You freestyle; you take the knowledge you have learned, the skills you have developed, assess the key and skill levels of the other musicians you are jamming with, and go off on a solo that fits the situation.

One should never try to pull off DTS, or any other technique. One should have learned, by drilling it, position recognition for setting up into an Osoto, and how to insert a strike into the setup. Think about all the things you would get eliminated from a judo match for if you did them. What if you developed this really great setup into seoinage... once in gripping range, you busted the other guy in the nuts with a knee, freed one hand just long enough to stick a finger in his eye, regained your grip, then elbow smashed him in the throat. THEN threw him. Well... that's kenpo. Put them together and rehearse it as a sequence, and it's a kenpo technique.

Thing most folks miss is... lets say you're in a brawl now, and wanna seoinage the guy. But the knee you usually bust him in the balls with isn't a good positional choice, and the hand you usually use to finger poke him is occupied with something else. Improv time. Poke him with the other hand, elbow smash him in the throat as a form of kuzushi to tip him into one corner for an off-balance, then knee him in the nuts on the way to the seoinage.

The techniques are not meant to be done the way they are written. They are written that way to teach the student how certain moves fit and complement each other better than others from specific positional constraints. If you duck under the right, AWESOME!! Crack him in the head, kidneys, spine, or back of the knee with someother really hard hit, shoot on his ***, and dump him with another throw. If you had good training and a good instructor, you will spot targets on the hand, wrist, elbow, biceps and ribs as his arm swings over your head, and clip at one or more of them as a "take that home with ya" parting gift. Then, maybe thwack him on another target, depending on what you see. But you learned the targets -- and how to look for them -- by drilling techniques. You learned that dropping a hammerfist with some downward clipping spin on it onto that kidney that is now right next to you causes more stuff to go wrong for the bad guy, because you drilled it in a technique that had that hammewrfist in it. You knew to blow that near leg out with a side thrust kick, because you trained it a bunch in Leaping Crane. Then you abandoned Leaping Crane, and put his neck in a super tight hadakajime and squeeze until stuff starts squirting out of his ears, because you trained that heavily in BJJ. BUT!!! you avoid taking him all the way to mata leon, because he has some buddies a couple yards away. So you quick-contract your forearm into his throat to start him choking on a muscle spasm (then shove him forward to the gorund to either smash his face or cause him to put his hands out to stop his fall, putting him in a 4-point position), because you're gonna need your hands free for his friends that are walking up to help him.

It's all a freestyle jam once the SHTF. But the skills you use in the jam were developed training the techs.

I play once in a while with my buddies in Nor Cal, all of whom are competitive judoka from the well-known San Jose state team, from USJA, Kodenkan schools, etc. We do stuff that's not allowed in a match. Not just the dirty wrestling (grinding kimonos across open cuts and such), but striking while on the way to a setup. Meaning, as you step to Osoto, use that knee and drive it into his quads or nuts or hip bone and keep pushing until you break through to the other side of his body where you finally use it for the trip. Vertical uppercut him in the floating ribs before gripping his gi low, and see if you cant seal his breath before launching him.

DTS, in my opinion, is just there to indroduce dirty judo to a bunch of kenpo guys who may have never been shown the throw before, and if they have, are too nice about how they do it. When I do seminars or classes, I ask the question, "What does (insert the name of any technique) teach us?" Typically, people respond with the moves. "DTS teachs us the double block and backnuckle as a setup to an osoto", or some such.

I would argue, "No. It doesn't. It teaches us something judo and aikijujutsu guys already know about throws, and that is... they go better if you soften the guy up a bit first by beating the crap out of him a little, before trying to toss him anywhere." Then I give them homework that requires them to think about the idea behind the technique, and globalize the idea into a wider range of skills. "Pick 3 more throws, break off with a partner, and come up with some good inserts that recieve an attack -- any attack -- then soften the guy up, then throw him, then finish him. You have 15 minutes, then will be expected to demo your creations for the rest of the class from the front. Ready? Go."

Now we're not teaching them a technique. We are teaching them to think, along a theme. Which is what the techniques are supposed to prompt in the first place.

Windy answer. Hope it helped.

D.

I still have so much to learn, but it is certainly nice to hear that I have been teaching and training along the lines of such a knowledgeable and skilled kenpo senior

many thanks
Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I still have so much to learn, but it is certainly nice to hear that I have been teaching and training along the lines of such a knowledgeable and skilled kenpo senior

many thanks
Respectfully,
Marlon

Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't consider myself a Senior. I'm just a silly man who has been doing this longer than he should have.

I lifted these metaphors/analogies/ideas directly form Mr. Parkers' teachings. It's in his books, his videos, was in his lectures and lessons. Sadly, somehow, some buncha folks who spent way more time with him than I did, and did way more for him and the family than I ever did, still managed to miss these major points he reiterated time and again.

The techniques are just there to show us what applying the concepts and principles to applications of the basics looks like in plausible scenario's. How to use what, under what contextual circumstances, for optimal effect. Never meant to get you through a fight as a "this response for that attack" gig... if you're kenpo fight lasts long enough to do a whole technique, then it's time to go back to solidifying the basics.

If you're training along those lines, I'd say you are one of the few who "gets it".

Train well,

D.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't consider myself a Senior. I'm just a silly man who has been doing this longer than he should have.

I lifted these metaphors/analogies/ideas directly form Mr. Parkers' teachings. It's in his books, his videos, was in his lectures and lessons. Sadly, somehow, some buncha folks who spent way more time with him than I did, and did way more for him and the family than I ever did, still managed to miss these major points he reiterated time and again.

The techniques are just there to show us what applying the concepts and principles to applications of the basics looks like in plausible scenario's. How to use what, under what contextual circumstances, for optimal effect. Never meant to get you through a fight as a "this response for that attack" gig... if you're kenpo fight lasts long enough to do a whole technique, then it's time to go back to solidifying the basics.

If you're training along those lines, I'd say you are one of the few who "gets it".

Train well,

D.

Most of us agree with at least parts of this.However,one of the questions that I and others have asked centers upon the functionality of the IP (Ideal Phase).Since I too recall reading that GGMEP was giving examples of (what I suppose then were) plausible scenarios from which to practice and/or execute the 72 self-defense t echniques which form the spine of Kenpo,then we would be perfectly in line to upgrade those now largely passe method of expression for the (presumably) correct idea of combat functionally that somehow got mired in the disfunctional "Ideal Phase".So "upgrading" and "functionality" is directly in line with what GGMEP and other martial luminaries had in mind,right?

Sooo...how functional is one technique designed for one of the most rare of circumstances? A circumstance that you should long have had the functional skills to resolve well before you got your black belt.Say blue or purple at the latest? What spawned the need for such a specific technique? I think the specificity of DTS is more indicative of a flawed,dysfunctional MODEL which crafts almost 100% of the time similarly flawed,dysfunctional techniques.I think we should craft a model as functional as possible and use that for a base from which we train,and add whatever further more functional innovations that we can collectively come up with thereunto...instead of starting with an almost entirely dysfunctional base and muddle through from there.

 

[marlon]

Most of us agree with at least parts of this.However,one of the questions that I and others have asked centers upon the functionality of the IP (Ideal Phase).Since I too recall reading that GGMEP was giving examples of (what I suppose then were) plausible scenarios from which to practice and/or execute the 72 self-defense t echniques which form the spine of Kenpo,then we would be perfectly in line to upgrade those now largely passe method of expression for the (presumably) correct idea of combat functionally that somehow got mired in the disfunctional "Ideal Phase".So "upgrading" and "functionality" is directly in line with what GGMEP and other martial luminaries had in mind,right?

Sooo...how functional is one technique designed for one of the most rare of circumstances? A circumstance that you should long have had the functional skills to resolve well before you got your black belt.Say blue or purple at the latest? What spawned the need for such a specific technique? I think the specificity of DTS is more indicative of a flawed,dysfunctional MODEL which crafts almost 100% of the time similarly flawed,dysfunctional techniques.I think we should craft a model as functional as possible and use that for a base from which we train,and add whatever further more functional innovations that we can collectively come up with thereunto...instead of starting with an almost entirely dysfunctional base and muddle through from there.

I study shaolin kempo not American Kenpo, but for the purposes of this discussion the differences are negligible. The back bone of our system is 108 combinations or defense manouevers as they are called on the west coast.
The point I appreciated from our illustiuous and humble senior is this: The backbone techniques are used to get the basics and flow into your system. trained into your muscle memory from the IP to the point where we have developed enogh basics of positioning and alignment to survive the initial attack; that our response to the initial attack is such that our manipulation of the attacker begins on contact; that our bodies
'recognize" that this piece of such and such attack fits here, which is followed up nicely by this move from the same technique or move X from a different technique (or form even); that our response flows in a logical and devasating manner until the threat is over. The technique is un important during the encounter. It is of extreme importance in training and perhaps even examination after the encounter. We train the techniques in order to respond well, not in order to pull off a technique. The IP is necessary to instill the right body mechanics, basics, and flow/thought/ response conditioning

Let me know if I am way off here

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

I study shaolin kempo not American Kenpo, but for the purposes of this discussion the differences are negligible. The back bone of our system is 108 combinations or defense manouevers as they are called on the west coast.
The point I appreciated from our illustiuous and humble senior is this: The backbone techniques are used to get the basics and flow into your system. trained into your muscle memory from the IP to the point where we have developed enogh basics of positioning and alignment to survive the initial attack; that our response to the initial attack is such that our manipulation of the attacker begins on contact; that our bodies
'recognize" that this piece of such and such attack fits here, which is followed up nicely by this move from the same technique or move X from a different technique (or form even); that our response flows in a logical and devasating manner until the threat is over. The technique is un important during the encounter. It is of extreme importance in training and perhaps even examination after the encounter. We train the techniques in order to respond well, not in order to pull off a technique. The IP is necessary to instill the right body mechanics, basics, and flow/thought/ response conditioning

Let me know if I am way off here

Respectfully,
Marlon

I recognized the exact same thing,I even agree with the concept.The problem I have is that the IP is tremendously nonfunctional,so it CAN'T reach the desired goals that you cited in your posts in any way on a regular basis because it's not consistently functional and thus not consistently reliable.Therefore I have recommended that the IP be replaced wholly by a FM--functional model.The result is a "upgrade" to your martial arts performance.No need for flowery metaphor or long-winded discussion;you learn the technique realistically,practice it against real time resistance,and therefore can perform in the real world.Look at the performance mandate required for boxers,wrestlers,MT guys,Olympic tkd people on Olympic teams,SWAT team members,etc.Bottom line? There's no reason that we can't train with a performance first mentality and EVERY REASON that we SHOULD make speedy,practical,potent real world performance central to our martial path wherever it takes us.

There is nothing beneficial about the Ideal Phase,and a great deal that can be dangerous about it.Our students may think that they can actually defend themselves with these techniques and the vast majority of them will not be able to do so should they be called upon to use what they're shown in the IP.If they train functionally? The vast majority WILL be able to defend themselves AND enjoy the mental and spiritual benefits that martial training can offer.

 

[marlon]

Hmm. As I said, I am not an American kenpo practitioner, so I maybe understanding the terminology incorrectly and not understanding your practice.
So, let me explain in more detail my understanding and you can decide.
The value of the ideal phase is not only to have the student practice safely and gain confidence and muscle memory, it also allows for me as an instructor to re enforce the necessary basics. Ramping it up too soon triggers fear based errors such as misalignment, too much speed and improper mechanics and poor stances. Once these get not muscle memory they are very hard to dislodge.
I teach the attack " unrealistically" at first emphasizing all the basics I feel important including precision. Then they practice lefty. Then without know if it will come left or right, then with movement so the attack comes at an unexpected time; then with the attacker working a second attack in there if possible ( it is the students job to respond in such a manner that the second attack is impossible)...
The time frame for the ramping it up is based on being slightly ahead of what the student is ready for in order to have his training pull her/ him to higher levels of proficiency. But all this starts with the basics learned and trained with the IP.
We also do reaction drills where the goal is the defend yourself against a quick surprising aggressive attack. Pull off a technique if you can but more importantly respond with the right mechanics. This and a dragon circle often show me very easily where the student is in thier absorption of the basics. Of course, then end goal is destructive flow without set techniques or a mishmash of parts. I have often seen students pull off moves from a technique that they are many belts away from because where they were when X happened dictated the next move be Y = a move from an advanced technique or form coming out naturally
This is my understanding of the use of the IP and why I see it as essential.

 

[marlon]

Hopefully that was clear and please correct me where you see that I am in error or my limited understanding of American Kenpo is clouding my observations
Respectfully
Marlon

 

[MJS]

The IP, IMO, is designed to be a platform to build from. Take the alphabet for example. We have 26 letters. We learn who to read, write and say those letters. We learn how to use those letters to form words, sentences, etc. We have an endless list of ways to use those letters. We learn some basic ways to use those letters, but we expand that list.

Same with the IP techs. IMO, the IP are teaching 1 possible way to do something. But unless everything goes exactly so, the IP wont work. After that, my view is that we take bits and pieces from those techs, and form a response that fits whatever is happening to us at the moment.

So, that brings the next question...why so many IP techs if what they teach wont work as taught. My answer to that is 2 fold. 1) we could take a few punch techs to use as a base, and then begin to expand, in essance, creating our own technique. 2) we could totally abandon the IP techs, and teach the basics, basics being punches, kicks, blocks, etc. From there, we drill the student on numerous ways to use those basics to defend themselves. I've had students do tech lines. During the line, I'll intentionally have the attacker throw an attack the student doesnt know a IP tech for. So many times, the student gets that deer in the headlights look, and says that they dont know what to do. I tell them that they do know what to do. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. They say yes. I say good, then do it. Then the light goes on. I dont care if the do Attacking Mace for the punch, or if they simply block the punch, and palm the guy in the face. They defended themself right? Mission accomplished.

Look at a boxer. They have a jab, cross, hook and uppercut. They have preset punches they use for focus mit trainging. But when they box, they do what they need to do, right?

Some people tend, at least in my opinion, to put way too much focus on the IP techs, all 154 of them. Why? KISS is the way to go. Keep It Short and Simple. IMO, if someone needs 100+ preset, IP techs to figure out how to defend themselves, somethings seriously wrong. Theres a shorter way to reach the end result. Of course, we should still keep the concepts and principles that Kenpo teaches, but no, you dont need to be bound by something that you're probably not going to pull off anyways.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Hopefully that was clear and please correct me where you see that I am in error or my limited understanding of American Kenpo is clouding my observations
Respectfully
Marlon

Marlon,your writing was very clear and very intelligent and I'm glad to be having this discussion with you.I think,however,that there is a consistent misunderstanding of the basic and crucial application of functional operation in its application to martial arts.At one point in your well written post,you indicated that ramping it up too soon could be detrimental in many ways to students: their technique,confidence,and well being could all suffer.Not to mention the overall control of the pacing etc. of the class from the instructor's perspective would be sacrificed.I totally agree there.

However,I'm not talking about Kenpo specifically,I'm talking about FUNCTIONAL V NONFUNCTIONAL METHODS.Allow me to illustrate via comparison:

Boxing,wrestling,MT,judoka,SWAT team members,Olympians,etc. all learn technique first.They learn proper technical application and repeat these movements usually solo sans any resistance until they have the rote muscle memory down.Then they move on to conditioning,and from there to live exercises.The live exercises also start at the lowest levels of intensity and then are ratcheted up as the students acquire the requisite skill confidence and knowledge until full on or nearly 100% live exercises are dealt with.Techniques are tweaked,corrections are made along the way...and then they repeat.The giant difference is that these functional warriors and athletes use drills and techniques that are specific to their environment.The boxer will not perform a robotic slow jab that's specifically designed to not even look like the kind of jab that a boxer will face in the ring or the street and then practice techniques that are not THE EXACT SAME OR VEEERRRY CLOSE TO THE EXACT SAME techniques they will use boxing or in an altercation. It will look like this:

Or like this:

Or like this:

Or like this:

You get the point.Sooo...stick disarms should NEVER look like this:

^^^That is horrifically dysfunctional and will get you beat up or worse.The Kenpo professors in this video can fight well and they don't use the techniques as shown in the video in self-defense encounters and that's my point.Never teach techniques that aren't universally applicable and which you don't use regularly yourself.Right off the bat,you should be practicing stick disarms that look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9qQuq9xhM&feature=related

This is functional.You see the difference? Every concern of safety and proper technique and whatnot is addressed within the functional matrix,but UNLIKE the ideal phase or anything else dysfunctional...YOU WILL FIGHT USING THE TECHNIQUE EXACTLY AS YOU TRAINED IT AND IT WILL WORK.The key is IT WILL WORK. The ideal phase you can see by direct comparison and contrast has immediate functional problems and simply is clearly the poorer choice to make between the two because it's very likely to NOT work.Yes,I recognize that the video that I recommend is a scenario where both attacker and defender are armed whereas the first Casa de Kenpo video shows an unarmed v club attack,but the obvious functional difference between the two should be instantly apparent.

You should NOT havea 10th degree grandmaster tell you to train Alternating Maces in Kenpo and make it look like THIS:

When even a 5th dan like me can show you how to START training like THIS FROM DAY ONE (this is the first in a series of videos I have addressing Alternating Maces):

^^^This technique is MUCH better and MUCH MORE FUNCTIONAL than the other one.Notice how my sparring partner doesn't "pose" for me,he responds defensively which is one of the major justifications for the variant of the Alternating Maces that I use.

Attacking Mace should NOT look like this:

When you can train Attacking Mace faaaar more FUNCTIONALLY like THIS:

^^^Not only are these step-by-step methods shown that are functional,there are nonscripted attacks that are defended by Attacking Mace and there is sparring using Attacking Mace.I have never found a video other than mine that features LIVE SPARRING with SD techniques.None of the functional essentials are in the "ideal phase/method" of ANY martial art,unless the "functional method" is used exclusively because BEING FUNCTIONAL IS THE COMBAT IDEAL.Anything other than performance oriented combat functionality will LITERALLY induce lesser combat functionality or even combat dysfunction.

So train all our techniques against progressive resistance,but always have both the model of resistance and the techniques that we use be functional.Which bluntly means that we need to dispense with the so-called IP entirely.It best,it's significantly less functional than the real world functional model in EVERY regard: safety,teachability,acquistion of self-defense skills,etc.It's normally results in nonfunctional combatives.

 

[ATACX GYM]

The IP, IMO, is designed to be a platform to build from. Take the alphabet for example. We have 26 letters. We learn who to read, write and say those letters. We learn how to use those letters to form words, sentences, etc. We have an endless list of ways to use those letters. We learn some basic ways to use those letters, but we expand that list.

Same with the IP techs. IMO, the IP are teaching 1 possible way to do something. But unless everything goes exactly so, the IP wont work. After that, my view is that we take bits and pieces from those techs, and form a response that fits whatever is happening to us at the moment.

So, that brings the next question...why so many IP techs if what they teach wont work as taught. My answer to that is 2 fold. 1) we could take a few punch techs to use as a base, and then begin to expand, in essance, creating our own technique. 2) we could totally abandon the IP techs, and teach the basics, basics being punches, kicks, blocks, etc. From there, we drill the student on numerous ways to use those basics to defend themselves. I've had students do tech lines. During the line, I'll intentionally have the attacker throw an attack the student doesnt know a IP tech for. So many times, the student gets that deer in the headlights look, and says that they dont know what to do. I tell them that they do know what to do. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. They say yes. I say good, then do it. Then the light goes on. I dont care if the do Attacking Mace for the punch, or if they simply block the punch, and palm the guy in the face. They defended themself right? Mission accomplished.

Look at a boxer. They have a jab, cross, hook and uppercut. They have preset punches they use for focus mit trainging. But when they box, they do what they need to do, right?

Some people tend, at least in my opinion, to put way too much focus on the IP techs, all 154 of them. Why? KISS is the way to go. Keep It Short and Simple. IMO, if someone needs 100+ preset, IP techs to figure out how to defend themselves, somethings seriously wrong. Theres a shorter way to reach the end result. Of course, we should still keep the concepts and principles that Kenpo teaches, but no, you dont need to be bound by something that you're probably not going to pull off anyways.

^^^agree almost 100% with this right here.

 

[marlon]

Marlon,your writing was very clear and very intelligent and I'm glad to be having this discussion with you.I think,however,that there is a consistent misunderstanding of the basic and crucial application of functional operation in its application to martial arts.At one point in your well written post,you indicated that ramping it up too soon could be detrimental in many ways to students: their technique,confidence,and well being could all suffer.Not to mention the overall control of the pacing etc. of the class from the instructor's perspective would be sacrificed.I totally agree there.

However,I'm not talking about Kenpo specifically,I'm talking about FUNCTIONAL V NONFUNCTIONAL METHODS.Allow me to illustrate via comparison:

Boxing,wrestling,MT,judoka,SWAT team members,Olympians,etc. all learn technique first.They learn proper technical application and repeat these movements usually solo sans any resistance until they have the rote muscle memory down.Then they move on to conditioning,and from there to live exercises.The live exercises also start at the lowest levels of intensity and then are ratcheted up as the students acquire the requisite skill confidence and knowledge until full on or nearly 100% live exercises are dealt with.Techniques are tweaked,corrections are made along the way...and then they repeat.The giant difference is that these functional warriors and athletes use drills and techniques that are specific to their environment.The boxer will not perform a robotic slow jab that's specifically designed to not even look like the kind of jab that a boxer will face in the ring or the street and then practice techniques that are not THE EXACT SAME OR VEEERRRY CLOSE TO THE EXACT SAME techniques they will use boxing or in an altercation. It will look like this:

Or like this:

Or like this:

Or like this:

You get the point.Sooo...stick disarms should NEVER look like this:

^^^That is horrifically dysfunctional and will get you beat up or worse.The Kenpo professors in this video can fight well and they don't use the techniques as shown in the video in self-defense encounters and that's my point.Never teach techniques that aren't universally applicable and which you don't use regularly yourself.Right off the bat,you should be practicing stick disarms that look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ9qQuq9xhM&feature=related

This is functional.You see the difference? Every concern of safety and proper technique and whatnot is addressed within the functional matrix,but UNLIKE the ideal phase or anything else dysfunctional...YOU WILL FIGHT USING THE TECHNIQUE EXACTLY AS YOU TRAINED IT AND IT WILL WORK.The key is IT WILL WORK. The ideal phase you can see by direct comparison and contrast has immediate functional problems and simply is clearly the poorer choice to make between the two because it's very likely to NOT work.Yes,I recognize that the video that I recommend is a scenario where both attacker and defender are armed whereas the first Casa de Kenpo video shows an unarmed v club attack,but the obvious functional difference between the two should be instantly apparent.

You should NOT havea 10th degree grandmaster tell you to train Alternating Maces in Kenpo and make it look like THIS:

When even a 5th dan like me can show you how to START training like THIS FROM DAY ONE (this is the first in a series of videos I have addressing Alternating Maces):

^^^This technique is MUCH better and MUCH MORE FUNCTIONAL than the other one.Notice how my sparring partner doesn't "pose" for me,he responds defensively which is one of the major justifications for the variant of the Alternating Maces that I use.

Attacking Mace should NOT look like this:

When you can train Attacking Mace faaaar more FUNCTIONALLY like THIS:

^^^Not only are these step-by-step methods shown that are functional,there are nonscripted attacks that are defended by Attacking Mace and there is sparring using Attacking Mace.I have never found a video other than mine that features LIVE SPARRING with SD techniques.None of the functional essentials are in the "ideal phase/method" of ANY martial art,unless the "functional method" is used exclusively because BEING FUNCTIONAL IS THE COMBAT IDEAL.Anything other than performance oriented combat functionality will LITERALLY induce lesser combat functionality or even combat dysfunction.

So train all our techniques against progressive resistance,but always have both the model of resistance and the techniques that we use be functional.Which bluntly means that we need to dispense with the so-called IP entirely.It best,it's significantly less functional than the real world functional model in EVERY regard: safety,teachability,acquistion of self-defense skills,etc.It's normally results in nonfunctional combatives.

I agree with much of what you have said on principle. The way I use the base techniques (i guess compareable to your IP techniques) does not exclude the things benefits you speak of at all. We are much closer to our attacker for most of our techniques than from what I saw on your vids. techniques during sparring is a good idea. One difficulty with it and the boxing comparision is the sport mentality associated with those activities that is not the same in a self defense situation. A committed attacker out to do you real harm does not 'spar' as in kenpo or boxing. Avoid confrontation as much as possible until you decide to commit to defense, then attack, attack to thier center, to their heart, attack to their stability, thourgh their defense attack to utterly crush them. We train this as best we can with reaction drills and such. However, this is firmly founded on the base of solid basics of alignment, movement, and realignment trained through the base techniques, from the idea phase all the way to the ramped up training. Fear, adrenaline and ignorance very easily can cause a beginner to develop bad structural habits that may or may not be obvious for a while and then cause a collaspe of efficiency when confronted by a bigger faster angry attacker intent on tearing them appart. Survive the initial attack is all structural, as is consistently effective response / execution of ones' skill, all structural.
btw the reaction drills are against any kind of attack delivered as unexpectedly as possible. The defender responds with, not getting hit (if they get hit continue anyway), and at least three follow up strikes doing everyhting they can to work their techniques into the drill. The point, of course,is to survive the initial attack, respond with a continuous flow of attack to end the threat...these, they learn from the techniques and forms preformed "ideally" over and over and over again.
I see your point and agree with it to a certain extent, it is a question of how soon to go there that most concerns me. agin, acknowledging that I do not come from an AK background and my understanding may be so way off that my points are not functional for you.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

So, i just looked at your alternating maces series. good stuff. Something in the technique reminded me of our combination #3.

I show our version more in the ideal phase at the link above. But feel free to search for it elsewhere to get a more complete idea. I have torn my achilles, so, I cannot put anything up right now compareable to your excellent series. When I am up and about again i would love to exchange concepts through a video medium suc as youtube. If you are interested. I, at least see it as an excellent learning opportunity.

this one gives a little idea of some of the ramping up that we do. It was not made specifically to show that but it is mentioned and will give an idea. The embu, shown is actually way too fast for beginners and even advanced students should start off much slower an then speed it up only later.The slow motion movement is to train alignment while fighting and to help the students learn to relax enough to be fast, opportunistic and learn how to control with contact.Yousee quite clearly near the end where Colin takes hold of my head at one point when I tried something silly. No greater feedback and reality check than thinking "what about this knd of move" and someone taking control of your spine by getting a hold of your head. Learn what works, learn what doesn't in a safe environment so that structural alignment takes precedence, is a huge part of the goal of embu

Respectfully,
Marlon