The body's reaction to strikes

[ikenpo]

In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?

jb:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

The only answers I can offer is that in Mr. Planas' seminars he has always said they will cover where it hurts. Personally I tend to agree with that statement. As for a side kick to the knee my guess is that someone will scream in pain, drop on their side then grab their knee and most likely roll side to side in much pain.
The following will be my thoughts on
Groin: Hips drop backward as the height drops down with both hands covering the groin.
Eye poke: They will stand more erect, both hands cover the eyes.
Solar Plexus (in general): One time yrs. ago practicing TKD I took a jump back spin kick in the solar plexus; it dropped me to one knee FAST.
Kidney: An arch of the back, most likely try to grab with the hand on that side that got hit.
Chop to the neck: Well this will vary on are you talking about Delayed Sword, or Five swords? One they are standing erect the other their already bent over.
Anyway these are my beliefs of what would happen; right or wrong this is what I think are the possibilities.

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response.

In general, this makes sense to me. I've never been hit/kicked in the groin really hard, but I have been hit/kicked there, and my experience has always been that the pain isn't immediate, it takes a second or two to really sink in, so I wouldn't be doubling over immediately like they always do in movies. But I do notice the strike immediately, and instinctively I just reach down.

Just my experience.

Rich

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
The only answers I can offer is that in Mr. Planas' seminars he has always said they will cover where it hurts.

This is exactly what I mean...."well, so and so said that's what would happen"....Does that make it a fact in every instance? I don't mean to come off as one that would question a Grand Master or Master of the Arts, but everyone has applied there own method of telling us how it feels to "get wet" (following the swimming analogy), couldn't there at least be an updated, varifiable standard that everyone uses?

Personally I tend to agree with that statement.

"I tend to agree.." Why, other than applying some form of preconceived belief system probably developed prior to training (but that might not be fair, I don't know you applied combat background)...other than that solar plexus strike which is from experience...and is there a difference if your hit in the high vs low in the solar plexus?

Anyway these are my beliefs of what would happen; right or wrong this is what I think are the possibilities.

What one "believes" has very little to do with reality of how the body reacts to blunt force trauma and other stimuli...

just my thoughts, jb:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Over the years, two of my students and I started a sad little group known as the "black ball club." To qualify for membership, one had to be struck in the groin hard enough to turn one's testicles black as a bowling ball (and about the same size, it seemed) - not a group you'd necessarily strike to join.

But....

One student dropped to the ground instantly when he has hit.

The other student seemed to be unaffected at first and went on to defeat his opponent in competition (he was in a tourney at the time). He defeated a second opponent, then went into the locker room and passed out.

After being hit (the unexpected result of a mounting technique), I calmly walked over to a counter and gave the rest of the students more instructions. Then I got the "wavies" and went into my office to sit down.....

The point is that 2 out of 3 of us were completely functional for some time following the blow.......

 

[TLH3rdDan]

hummm see about the only way to find out would be to find a large group of morons who dont mind being hit as hard as you can in those areas to find out what happens... then you see what the majority of them did when hit then you have something to go by... but good luck finding that group lol

 

[white belt]

My disclaimer first: No, I don't claim to be a badass!

I have been in some "real" altercations and though some have dropped on contact, others did not immediately, when shoe toed in the groin. I also have knocked people onto "queer street" and they were swiping at air, with eyes wide open in blind stare mode, just before passing out. I am primarily a TKD man, but the value of the rapid fire assault method, in many MAs like my TKD style and Kenpo, etc. is, to me at least, essential sometimes as insurance when dealing with a determined assailant. The only things I truly bank on with body reaction is when hitting the groin, the hips reflex back, causing the head to come better into range. When slamming a solid head shot, the head reflexes back opening the throat and bringing the groin forward. If the head shot is around the temple area or above, the perp. sometimes crouches forward and goes to a knee or knees. The hands in my experiences don't always follow predetermined paths of reaction. One perp. was dealt a stunning temple shot and was seeing stars. I assumed his hands were going to go high and cover, but he was too dazed or something and his arms went momentarily limp and dropped to his waist area. I already had a round house headed for his ribs, which were now covered, and my shoe tip (through luck on my part) struck inside the fold of his left elbow joint causing a snapping sound. A possible accidental arm break meant to be a torso shot. A NOTE: I was NOT the initiator in any of these "disagreements". So no character bashing please! I share these things to see if others can also share reality experiences with the "body reactions concept". I think it is good science, but imperfect at times. I definitely subscribe to rapid fire techs. in succession. Any certifiable law enforcement/military studies on this subject? Personal experiences to prove or disprove the concept posted?

white belt

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
This is exactly what I mean...."well, so and so said that's what would happen"....Does that make it a fact in every instance?

No, I'm just trying to give a general description from my exerperiences. The thought I left was another general description given from Mr. Planas. Everyone is going to react different to different strikes and how hard they are. No one is perfect nor will any technique become perfect. All it comes down to my friend is just plain training and a lot of it.

 

[Blindside]

Good point JB,

I've been nailed (hard!) with groin shots when sparring (especially those shots that lift the cup rather than hit it!) and when I'm going hard I usually have several seconds before the pain really sets in. I don't have that instant reaction alot of people seem to expect.

My brother-in-law is a bouncer, he was hit so hard that he can no longer have children, he says he didn't "really" feel it until two hours after the fight.

I don't like to depend on pain mechanisms to make a person move the way I want.

Lamont

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies?

Mr. Mills hit a guy in the back with a palm heel so hard that it caused bruising on the guys abdomen, he dropped to the ground instantly. Liquid Shockwave.

There is more to anatomical targeting than just trying to kick someone in the junk, or gouge out their eyes. The body has all types of wonderful responses based on a number of different things, the location of the strike, angle of incidence, method of execution, etc.

For instance there are optimal locations to aim for when striking targets like the abdomen, and due to the construction of the diaphragm and the surrounding abdominal muscles, there are specific angles and methods of execution that will have a much greater effect.

You shouldn't rely solely on the use of pain to try and CONTROL an opponent rather it should be a single tactic in your arsenal. To use a movie title, you should be Fast and Furious. Use pain, repetitive striking, psychological tactics to defeat an opponent. Make them wish that they had never tried to attack you, because if you don't then the pissed off SOB will probably come back later or revenge (I know I would )

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I recently recieved a pretty solid punch to the nose ( you know who you are Captain!!!:shrug: ) I didn't reach up to grab my nose, I kept my hands out to try and divert anything else that came my way. After a minute or two, my eyes began to water and my face started to feel like it had been flattened with a snow shovel. It was an interesting experience, up until then I had never taken a direct hit to the face (I've been clipped in the jaw or taken shots to the chin or side of my head but never one right square to the nose). It bled a little but my point is that the effects didn't kick in for a few moments after we slowed down the tempo a bit.

Don't just cause pain and discomfort, create a desirable response and put them on the ground.

 

[Sigung86]

That's kind of why they call it the ideal phase. It is pretty surprising what types of reactions you can get from strikes on different people. There is, for instance, the old, reliable groin kick.

What very few people know is that the reason for the pain is that the omentum lines the testicular sack, or scrotum The pain you are really feeling is a reflexive pain from the lining of the abdominal cavity, to wit ... The omentum... What is very much less known even than that ... There is .0000000000000999 percent of the male population who does not have the omentum lining in the scrotum thus ... You may literally kick the attacker's testacles into his lungs and he will not feel pain.

A much better and often overlooked alternative is to place a well aimed kick into the lower abdomen, just slightly over the top of the pelvic arch or crest. This will, essentially, provide nearly the same amount of damage/pain, as it were, and is much more reliable, in that you are also creating trauma to the attacker's central or prime meridian. There are many other benefits that are derived from this placement.

Just some thoughts.

Dan

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
hummm see about the only way to find out would be to find a large group of morons who dont mind being hit as hard as you can in those areas to find out what happens... then you see what the majority of them did when hit then you have something to go by... but good luck finding that group lol

YOu assemble the group, and I will assemble and head the group of strikers and note takers.

 

[Chronuss]

when we spar over at the college, there's always twenty guys that wanna throw that hardest, fastest round kick to your chest that they possibly can. unfortunately, the twenty guys couldn't get their foot above their waist if they were lying on the ground and raised their legs... so a round kick to the groin is inevitable, of which I've received a few. the pain isn't immediate, it's more of a lingering feeling that filters up to the chest, but boy, does it suck.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

YOu assemble the group, and I will assemble and head the group of strikers and note takers.

hummm ok... :asian: of course we could see if we could do it the old japanese way and use prisoners lol... i wonder who i would have to write a letter too? i mean we could use death row inmates and life sentence inmates that way if we acidently killed any of them in the process we would at least be helping the government out a little. ill look into it... its kind of interesting actually

 

[TLH3rdDan]

ok first i guess we need to determine how many subjects we would need.... 20? 30? 40? 100? and then im assuming we would want to try different sizes ages builds races and sexes? then what would we want to test on them? and how often would we need to refresh the group since they would be pretty well trashed after the first round...

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by jbkenpo
In general there is a belief that based on a particular stike the body will react a particular way. We believe this because that is how the technique is written and taught. When's the last time these theories were checked to make sure those responses are still valid? Generally speaking what does the body do when...

Kicked in the groin
poked in the eye
hit in the lower solar plexus
hit in the higher solar plexus
hit in the kidney
chopped in the neck, etc...

Is there a breakdown out there that has been recently varified and could be listed here? Any surprising replies? One that comes to mind is where Doc always says someone hit in the balls won't drop immediately. Just curious, because now in many schools they are having the person respond to an attack by "putting their hands where they were just hit" as the correct response. Is that always what is going to happen? Who said? If you kicked in the knee are you going to reach down for it, or start hopping on the other foot to remove the pressure or just fall? Then how does that reaction change based on angle of entry? Should reactions to attacks be taught as a section unto themselves?

jb:asian:

Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike. You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while). I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).
The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE. So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task. Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.
If they react to a strike the way I intend...great! If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky....

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Sigung86
That's kind of why they call it the ideal phase. It is pretty surprising what types of reactions you can get from strikes on different people. There is, for instance, the old, reliable groin kick.

What very few people know is that the reason for the pain is that the omentum lines the testicular sack, or scrotum The pain you are really feeling is a reflexive pain from the lining of the abdominal cavity, to wit ... The omentum... What is very much less known even than that ... There is .0000000000000999 percent of the male population who does not have the omentum lining in the scrotum thus ... You may literally kick the attacker's testacles into his lungs and he will not feel pain.

A much better and often overlooked alternative is to place a well aimed kick into the lower abdomen, just slightly over the top of the pelvic arch or crest. This will, essentially, provide nearly the same amount of damage/pain, as it were, and is much more reliable, in that you are also creating trauma to the attacker's central or prime meridian. There are many other benefits that are derived from this placement.

Just some thoughts.

Dan

Excuse me. My balls are black, and I haven't even been kicked. What's up with that?

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Personally I believe that each person WILL react differently to any strike. You may be able to kick one guy in the groin and him drop immediately, and you may do the same kick to another guy and he will just stand there and smile (probably before he commences to use you as a punching bag for a while). I have kicked someone in the groin before and he just winced a little and came after me (so much for one strike knockdown or out).
The good thing that I get out of Kenpo is that I don't believe that ANY ONE strike will have the intended effect on ANYONE. So therefore it makes me try to learn how to continue the flow of motion and Graft anything together that is necessary to complete the intended task. Me being a smaller guy, I can NEVER have the idea of one strike is all that is needed.
If they react to a strike the way I intend...great! If not, I hope I am prepared to work around that situation and still have the same effect on the opponent.
Everyone is different...some stronger some weaker...some luckier some not so lucky....

There seems to be an assumption here that all reactions to strikes are mechanically physical in nature. Chew on that.

Great job JB. Keepem' on their toes thinking. I love the smart guys.

 

[Brother John]

:erg: :hammer: :mst:

I can't believe you went there!
Glad you did....
just can believe it.


:rofl:
Your brother
John