The black belt promotion system YES or NO?

[Gyakuto]

Happens without belts, too...

"Novice" -- even with quite a few fights, especially if some of them were smokers or other "unofficial" matches, with all the trappings of a real match.

My son's t-ball team was pulled together for the first time that spring. About half the teams we played against had played a "t-ball lite" the spring before, and fall t-ball together... I mean -- t-ball teams trying to turn double plays?

I don’t understand this post at all! Sport’s speak

 

[Gyakuto]

Typically in the FMA arts, if there is a belt then it’s only a black belt. In Eskrido De Alcuizar it is the same. My position is that, as long as I’m progressing I’m satisfied. My teacher Ron Manrique is my litmus test. When I interact with him, I quickly realize my growth and my weakness. Now, I am a BB and must say, my pride in my black belt comes most from my grandchildren. Giving them bragging rights is more important to me than the belt.
With that all said, it is kinda cool that at 67 years old in can say I’m an active black belt…

An objective measure of progress is important and in MA that means a grading panel of people who don’t know the candidates.

During the lockdowns, English school teachers were asked to mark their own student’s university entrance exams (A-Levels). The result was significant grade-inflation and thus less-than-able students being admitted to challenging university courses and not being able to handle them, struggling and even dropping out! The teachers simply had an unconscious bias that favoured their own students. This is why external marking is so important.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my opinion, whether a ranking system is good or bad depends upon the individual and how the ranking is used within the system. There’s no one answer to this.

 

[Holmejr]

An objective measure of progress is important and in MA that means a grading panel of people who don’t know the candidates.

During the lockdowns, English school teachers were asked to mark their own student’s university entrance exams (A-Levels). The result was significant grade-inflation and thus less-than-able students being admitted to challenging university courses and not being able to handle them, struggling and even dropping out! The teachers simply had an unconscious bias that favoured their own students. This is why external marking is so important.

In our school the objective measure of progress is being able to master the art as taught by our GM and passed to our teacher. Our Teacher and assistant instructors monitor and determine if the student is ready to move on. Things get rather intense in our training and it becomes apparent quickly when a student is struggling or has grasped the techniques/concept. No belts needed. The students we attract judge their progress the same way we do. They are able to defend themselves or they can’t.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, Ca

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In our school the objective measure of progress is being able to master the art as taught by our GM and passed to our teacher. Our Teacher and assistant instructors monitor and determine if the student is ready to move on. Things get rather intense in our training and it becomes apparent quickly when a student is struggling or has grasped the techniques/concept. No belts needed. The students we attract judge their progress the same way we do. They are able to defend themselves or they can’t.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, Ca

For clarity, I don’t think tanks are needed in any system. They can, however, be useful in some ways.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For clarity, I don’t think tanks are needed in any system. They can, however, be useful in some ways.

Tanks can be very useful, but need to be supported by infantry and artillery.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tanks can be very useful, but need to be supported by infantry and artillery.

As proven by recent events.

 

[Gyakuto]

In our school the objective measure of progress is being able to master the art as taught by our GM and passed to our teacher. Our Teacher and assistant instructors monitor and determine if the student is ready to move on. Things get rather intense in our training and it becomes apparent quickly when a student is struggling or has grasped the techniques/concept. No belts needed. The students we attract judge their progress the same way we do. They are able to defend themselves or they can’t.

Eskrido de Alcuizar
World Eskrido Federation
Buena Park, Ca

That’s not really objective is the teachers are assessing their own students. Quad erat demonstrandum. Unconscious bias applies in these circumstance and it’s hard to overcome them. Better to have an unknown panel doing the assessments, then unconscious bias can be ameliorated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That’s not really objective is the teachers are assessing their own students. Quad erat demonstrandum. Unconscious bias applies in these circumstance and it’s hard to overcome them. Better to have an unknown panel doing the assessments, then unconscious bias can be ameliorated.

I agree about the bias. At the same time, an independent panel can’t know much about the student’s actual overall ability - just how they perform on the test. I don’t know of a way to mitigate that - all testing methods have limitations.

 

[Gyakuto]

I agree about the bias. At the same time, an independent panel can’t know much about the student’s actual overall ability - just how they perform on the test. I don’t know of a way to mitigate that - all testing methods have limitations.

How about a day long assessment…teaching them in a class and seeing what they can do?

 

[lklawson]

How about a day long assessment…teaching them in a class and seeing what they can do?

Belts and ranks are only useful within the context of the school or organizing body for that branch of the art. A black belt in X isn't the same as a black belt in Y, never mind any other color or rank. I think the school/org should make their own standards and the rest of us not only shouldn't care but really don't have much right to decide for them anyway.

Now, deciding for us in our art/club/whatever, that's different.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jshieh]

If you take money/business aspects out of the belt question and focus on learning, belts are not at all that important. They are just artificial grids superimposed on an individual's skill continuum. They are a convenient tool/frame of reference to help describe a skill level within a particular school or organization. This can be helpful as a motivator, organizer of info, and an indicator of relative ability amongst the instructors and students. It can make things easier for all concerned, especially in group classes where members/teachers aren't so familiar with each other. Rank is a mere description, not the thing it's describing.

For serious, self-motivated students who have a close relationship with their instructor belts are not needed at all. This described most all karate students prior to the 1920's, before it went public. Not by coincidence, there was little stress on belts/rank at that time. (Earlier for judo, later for Okinawan karate.)

The Orient is big on hierarchy, much like the military. Rank is very important in the military. But if you look at our Special Forces, rank plays a lesser role, small tactical teams more informal about rank. These elite groups fit the description of "serious, self-motivated." This description does not fit most modern MA students - thus the reliance on ranks.

Where does the relatively more "rankless" Muy Thai and some FMA fit in? Maybe three considerations: I think it's safe to say these two societies are less structured than Japan/China and without the historical military traditions. This perhaps made them less rank conscious. Secondly, their teaching was not institutionalized in the school system on a large scale like karate and judo were (I don't think). Thirdly, MT and FMA students are a smaller and perhaps more serious esoteric group, resembling the early karate students and not so rank conscious. But with growing popularity in the West, it would not be surprising to see a belt/rank system evolve in the future.

I registered an account just so I can "like" this comment!

 

[Yanli]

Over the years I have collected a decent number of black belts, and various degrees in different systems.

Currently I'm training in Muay Thai, where there is no belt system. Despite the fact that I'm proud of a few of the belts I have achieved, overall I am greatly enjoying training in a system that has no belt ranking system. It's liberating!!!

My belts have given me legitimacy over the years, and that's been helpful occasionally, to give me a platform to teach. But overall, I dislike what a belt system brings into the culture of a gym.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but what do you guys think of the belt ranking systems? The politics of belts? It seems everyone is either A. Over promoted or B. Under promoted and ultimately it can be all a major distraction from effective training.

Thoughts?

I agree that a belt system can have a negative effect for some, for some it is just a symbol, for others its a reward for their effort. In my opinion or belief, one should search for greater joy in their own recognition of achievements, and not others. I think that if someone truly wants to learn MA, then they will strive on because they want to learn all that they can, belt or no belt. I am a 41 year Wing Chun instructor and WC does not use belts, or at least many do not, I find more pride in my students and my achievements, not the belts.

 

[Callen]

I am a 41 year Wing Chun instructor and WC does not use belts, or at least many do not, I find more pride in my students and my achievements, not the belts.

A 41 year Wing Chun instructor! Have you considered participating in the Wing Chun sub-forum here?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How about a day long assessment…teaching them in a class and seeing what they can do?

That would go further, but you'd still only have one class for assessment. And their performance would be colored by things like nerves, test anxiety, etc. And the longer the independent examiners spend with test subjects, the more subject they are to the same kinds of biases as the instructor.

I think one thing many instructors do to try to mitigate this is having students have to get permission from their instructor before they can test before a panel, so you get a bit of both. Both sets of issues still exist, but are somewhat mitigated each by the other.

 

[OLD DOG NEW TRICKS]

Over the years I have collected a decent number of black belts, and various degrees in different systems.

Currently I'm training in Muay Thai, where there is no belt system. Despite the fact that I'm proud of a few of the belts I have achieved, overall I am greatly enjoying training in a system that has no belt ranking system. It's liberating!!!

My belts have given me legitimacy over the years, and that's been helpful occasionally, to give me a platform to teach. But overall, I dislike what a belt system brings into the culture of a gym.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but what do you guys think of the belt ranking systems? The politics of belts? It seems everyone is either A. Over promoted or B. Under promoted and ultimately it can be all a major distraction from effective training.

Thoughts?

I have instructed and trained in many styles over the years. The belt system tends to be a motivator for most students. A few students have no interest in the belts they just train for the love of the arts. A very personal choice. My personal preference after many years of training is to not worry about belts and enjoy the fellowship and knowledge obtained from any and all training.

 

[MyFitteLife Ninja]

Over the years I have collected a decent number of black belts, and various degrees in different systems.

Currently I'm training in Muay Thai, where there is no belt system. Despite the fact that I'm proud of a few of the belts I have achieved, overall I am greatly enjoying training in a system that has no belt ranking system. It's liberating!!!

My belts have given me legitimacy over the years, and that's been helpful occasionally, to give me a platform to teach. But overall, I dislike what a belt system brings into the culture of a gym.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but what do you guys think of the belt ranking systems? The politics of belts? It seems everyone is either A. Over promoted or B. Under promoted and ultimately it can be all a major distraction from effective training.

Thoughts?

I believe that belts are helpful only to keep students motivated. As we all know, certain schools/teachers will guarantee a belt as long as you complete the training. To this end, belts do not signify anything. If you are training to be able to defend yourself then you should be more concerned with your fitness, agility and strength than a color around your waist. I have met way too many black belts who would not stand a chance in a real confrontation. If you are training for exercise and the social component of the martial arts then that's great.....just don't try and defend yourself with that.

 

[OLD DOG NEW TRICKS]

Belts do come in handy. You know that cardboard box of stuff you no longer use that you have in the back of your closet?

It would get squished if it wasn't filled with belts, patches and old fighting gloves.

Thats hilarious and true.

 

[kfman]

Over the years I have collected a decent number of black belts, and various degrees in different systems.

Currently I'm training in Muay Thai, where there is no belt system. Despite the fact that I'm proud of a few of the belts I have achieved, overall I am greatly enjoying training in a system that has no belt ranking system. It's liberating!!!

My belts have given me legitimacy over the years, and that's been helpful occasionally, to give me a platform to teach. But overall, I dislike what a belt system brings into the culture of a gym.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but what do you guys think of the belt ranking systems? The politics of belts? It seems everyone is either A. Over promoted or B. Under promoted and ultimately it can be all a major distraction from effective training.

Thoughts?

Forget belts, just take me to dinner... I teach kung fu where there are no belts. Learning a new form is like getting a belt. In traditional kung you are a teacher or a student.

 

[Johnkungfu]

Over the years I have collected a decent number of black belts, and various degrees in different systems.

Currently I'm training in Muay Thai, where there is no belt system. Despite the fact that I'm proud of a few of the belts I have achieved, overall I am greatly enjoying training in a system that has no belt ranking system. It's liberating!!!

My belts have given me legitimacy over the years, and that's been helpful occasionally, to give me a platform to teach. But overall, I dislike what a belt system brings into the culture of a gym.

I'm not saying it's all bad, but what do you guys think of the belt ranking systems? The politics of belts? It seems everyone is either A. Over promoted or B. Under promoted and ultimately it can be all a major distraction from effective training.

Thoughts?

I was always denied promotion. From the begining- i hated belts i found them to have only one real purpose which a good teacher would replace- other then safety for tech - its a ego and politics game which to me has destroyed the essence of martial art created a system of politics and glory - no glory in war or death so i think they also do not take it seriously and result shows - pro fighters rarely last long without perm injury so self defense will be a issue and law consequence change the game - i agree with you.