The Bible, Hell, and Other Topics of Casual Delight

[mantis]

Actually, the original "Historical Jesus" thread that Paul and I participated in some years ago was quite a bit longer than this.

Laterz.

i wanna suggest something dumb
all of the conflicting people should submit a list of initial thoughts and another party should pick a list of topics, and points to discuss then go over them one after another
even if the "fighters" here dont agree, at least the audience would learn something about the topic

 

[7starmantis]

I really dont like it when people refer to hearing someones ideas or opinions as "learning". If I state my case nad it seems reasonable, you still should not accept it as fact until you have researched it for yourself. This goes for either side of the argument.

 

[mantis]

I really dont like it when people refer to hearing someones ideas or opinions as "learning". If I state my case nad it seems reasonable, you still should not accept it as fact until you have researched it for yourself. This goes for either side of the argument.

fair enough
good point. sorry about that, and i take it back

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I really dont like it when people refer to hearing someones ideas or opinions as "learning". If I state my case nad it seems reasonable, you still should not accept it as fact until you have researched it for yourself. This goes for either side of the argument.

so without researching something yourself, seeing the well argued viewpoints on a subject will not lead to learning anything?

i think people that are not really schooled in the bible and its related myths would learn quite a bit from this discussion, and hopefully it would lead to them wanting to seek out the information that is readily available.

 

[shesulsa]

I really dont like it when people refer to hearing someones ideas or opinions as "learning". If I state my case nad it seems reasonable, you still should not accept it as fact until you have researched it for yourself. This goes for either side of the argument.

Adam, I agree that just because a person hears a viewpoint or opinion that such viewpoint or opinion should not be accepted as "fact." However, I think learning DOES occur when we exchange ideas and opinions. For me, I get to discover another person's thought process which sometimes causes me to question what I know and dig further into fact-finding and moral consequence. So learning actually takes place without a person accepting someone else's feelings as fact.

I think it's a very important point that you brought up and it might even be worthy of its own thread!

Further, kudos for pointing this out - very responsible.

 

[arnisador]

No one is even in the ballpark of longest thread yet.

 

[Marginal]

No, you dont seem to be reading the posts. Fact as set by the accepted deffinition of the word.

Your definition of the Word is what's skewing the facts.

If you are alluding to the fact that my points and "facts" are wrong, simply post a logical verifiable post that proves them incorrect and we'll be cool.

That's impossible as you'll simply offer yet another "Who says this? Are they legion?" I've yet to see you cooly accept any fact that doesn't meet your personal schema.

Otherwise your just mouthing off because you dont like my points.

Yes, but only because of the intellectual double standard you delight in employing.

It seems you have missed the posts where I explain my stance is not neccessarily that of what I'm arguing and have even said its quite different. I'm just offering facts from the bible that discount the alleged contradictions held within the bible itself.

Which is pointless.

 

[7starmantis]

Adam, I agree that just because a person hears a viewpoint or opinion that such viewpoint or opinion should not be accepted as "fact." However, I think learning DOES occur when we exchange ideas and opinions. For me, I get to discover another person's thought process which sometimes causes me to question what I know and dig further into fact-finding and moral consequence. So learning actually takes place without a person accepting someone else's feelings as fact.

I think it's a very important point that you brought up and it might even be worthy of its own thread!

Further, kudos for pointing this out - very responsible.

Quite right! Thats really what I meant, not that learning doesn't occur, but that this type of discussion would push people to seek out what they believe or seek out the "truth".

Good point Geo!

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Your definition of the Word is what's skewing the facts.

You keep saying that but offer no deffinition yourself. You say mine is skewed but yet dont even attempt to point out my own skewed deffinition. Would you mind defining the word and contrasting it to my supposed deffinition allowing me to see the differences? If not your point is moot.

That's impossible as you'll simply offer yet another "Who says this? Are they legion?" I've yet to see you cooly accept any fact that doesn't meet your personal schema.

As I recall your posts seem to follow this trend more than anoyone elses on this particular thread.....

That's your opinion. Who else supports it?

However, support of a point is vital to a sound argument. If you can't offer some type of proof or support your only offering up your own beliefs or opinions and thats really not what this thread is about, at least to me. I've "cooly" accepted many alleged contradictions and "facts" however I simply and "cooly" offer facts to show the "other side". This is known as debate. That is what this thread is about. If what your saying is that I have yet to simply accept what someone is saying as truth and not offer an argument of my own.....your expectations of debate are off by far.
Once again, allow me to point out to everyone here, your again blindly trying to hold me to some personal agenda or "schema". You should really read this thread man, my personal schema or agenda is quite different from the simple debate we have going here. This is a clear cut case of someone taking debate way too personally and injecting that emotional bias into others posts.

Yes, but only because of the intellectual double standard you delight in employing.

You are very good at accusations but lack on the support or proof side. Name calling goes only so far, unless you care to explain what "intellectual double standard" I am "delighting in employing" your arguement is simply that...argumentative.

Which is pointless.

You may find this debate pointless, but if so, why are you still reading it? Maybe you hsould offer some points yourself instead of simply chiming in with your unaccounted accusations and name calling. I'm not trying to offend you or upset you, but your not offering anything but your own dislike of people who make the points I'm making. Attack the points, not the one making the points.

:asian:
7sm

 

[Marginal]

You keep saying that but offer no deffinition yourself. You say mine is skewed but yet dont even attempt to point out my own skewed deffinition. Would you mind defining the word and contrasting it to my supposed deffinition allowing me to see the differences? If not your point is moot.

That'sthe whole point. "Debating" this topic with you is moot. You sat down and made yourself some handy rules like "Don't reference historical context" which makes the discussion pointless.

As I recall your posts seem to follow this trend more than anoyone elses on this particular thread.....

Not really. I've just been repeating the arguments you tossed out at others early on in the thread. If they seem nit-picky and substance free now....

You are very good at accusations but lack on the support or proof side. Name calling goes only so far, unless you care to explain what "intellectual double standard" I am "delighting in employing" your arguement is simply that...argumentative.

That's the point of an argument. Does trumpeting "I win!" count as a storied debate tactic? Does telling folks to "Calm down"? Count as high debate?

Attack the points, not the one making the points.

:asian:
7sm

It's a shame I can't follow you for an example for that. For the points you so dispassionately bring up just for the sake of playing devil's advocate (apparently) you certainly seem to retreat to that very behaviour a lot.

 

[7starmantis]

That'sthe whole point. "Debating" this topic with you is moot. You sat down and made yourself some handy rules like "Don't reference historical context" which makes the discussion pointless.

Ok, well when the discussion is about contradictions within the bible, the source text is pretty important wouldn't you say? It seems your still being guided by your personal bias and reading that into other's posts. I didn't say not to refrence historical data, but that discussion of a text containing within itself contradictions to itself, obviously produces discussion of said text. Historical data means nothing to that discussion. This is a trite excuse for those who cannot post on said topic. Once again you are offering these excuses rather than points or facts. If historical data can prove or disprove internal contradictions of the bible, by all means please share it with us. What we have seen is that of all the attmepts of that clearly take supositions and context to a whole new level. A simple study of the text is adequate to show their inacuracy. I guess I'm trying to say (in a way not to offend) is "put up or shut up". :wink:

That's the point of an argument. Does trumpeting "I win!" count as a storied debate tactic? Does telling folks to "Calm down"? Count as high debate?

Ok, thats why in my last posts I made a distinction between what you are calling an argument and a debate. If your here to simply argue, then go ahead, but honest debate is not based in argumentative behavior. No one in this thread has "trumpeted I win!". Again, this is stering off the course of the topics to an argumentative point that has nothing to do with the discussion. If your trying to allude that all I'm presenting is "I win" and "Calm dwon" you really need to re-read the thread. Thats simply an ad hominem fallacy to mask not having a point.

It's a shame I can't follow you for an example for that. For the points you so dispassionately bring up just for the sake of playing devil's advocate (apparently) you certainly seem to retreat to that very behaviour a lot.

Now your claiming I'm attacking the people here instead of the points. You can't be serious. Your agenda here has become clear and is clouding your posts. I have simply offered facts and support to counter many points made here. The fact that you see those posts as attacks only illuminates your personal bias and agenda.

Can't you see whats happened here? Look at your last several posts. They are all about me and have nothing to do with the topic at hand. This is called argumentative ad hominem. If you have points to make acording to the topic by all means share them. If you only care to attack me because of my supposed affiliation with those who also make the same points I make...please do us a favor and refrain.

7sm

 

[heretic888]

Settle down, guys. There's no need to make things personal here.

Geez.

 

[7starmantis]

Settle down, guys. There's no need to make things personal here.

Geez.

Your concern is noted, but nothing is getting personal here. We are having discussions and this is part of that process. No need making it into things its not, lets all just continue to post as we feel needed to. If things get personal or cross a line we have a great mod team (I'll step down for this thread as I'm involved) who will handle the issues.

7sm

 

[Snapcrackler]

I believe in the Bible and I know that Jesus is alive and helping me every day. I need the help.

Everybody will find out the truth in the end, which really is just a short while away for all of us. I hope and pray, that you guys that are opposed to Jesus, will just give your troubles to Jesus, ask Him to help you, believe that He died for you guys. If I am wrong, than I am wrong, but I am sticking to it until I croak.

If you believe in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then you have to believe in the Devil and Demons. It's like a package deal. You know, the Devil that is always trying to keep you from thinking that there is an almighty God that really likes us enough to send someone like Jesus to save us.

Lots of people throughout history make fun of Jesus, more than anyone makes fun of other religious figures. Likewise, lots of people throughout history have hurt or kill others "in Jesus's name" and accuse others "In Jesus' name". This is wrong and twisted, and it turns people away from Jesus.

But the bottom line is that the Bible does not condone any of that messed-up stuff. If you want to read the Bible and see what it is really about, you can start in the old testament and read a chapter each night and pray about it a little. Just check it out for yourself. Remember that the original Bible was written in Aramaic, so pick a translation that is reasonable, for me I do not like King James. Living Bible or something like that works a lot better for me.

Remember it's like translating Chinese to English and the better the translation, the more sense it is going to make to you; I do not know anyone that likes to talk in "thees and thous". God Knows you because He made you. Just ask him to show you the way and listen to Him through the Bible and prayer. What do you get, if you ask Jesus into your life, believe that Jesus was killed for your sins and that he rose from the dead and lives today?? Peace, eternal life, that huge crushing weight pulled right off your back, for starters.

Psalm 144:1 Blessed be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

Tang Soo

 

[heretic888]

Remember that the original Bible was written in Aramaic, so pick a translation that is reasonable, for me I do not like King James.

Actually, if you're talking about the New Testament, it was originally written in Greek. The Old Testament quoted by the New Testament authors was also a particular Greek translation called the Septugaint.

Not that Aramaic translations can't tell us anything about primitive Christianity, but the texts we're working with were primarily written in Greek.

Laterz.

 

[ajury]

wow I am amazed that 20 pages in people are still mostly civil. Good job folks and thanks for letting us read.

 

[Ken Morgan]

ummm....you do realize that no one has posted on this thread in six years.....right?

 

[granfire]

No wonder everybody was so nice...