The "better to die on your feet" thread

[Bill Mattocks]

I think you are taking her statement out of context

Not intentionally, I assure you. I exaggerated to make a point. As humans, we all know we are slated to die at some point. While it may seem a romantic notion to die on one's feet, fighting the noble battle for X, Y, or Z, in fact, it is merely death, no matter how it occurs. Dead is dead. Philosophy is nice, but dead is still dead.

I am no samurai, fighting for my lord and his honor. I served in the military, I played that role and would have fulfilled my obligation if required to do so. But I can tell you that based on my experience, it is unnatural act, and not one which makes much sense when one has to choose between a set of car keys and one's own guts on the sidewalk.

Bottom line; I prefer not to die at all. I accept that one day I will die, and it will probably not be a time, place, or method of my own choosing. It will come unbidden and unwanted, I suspect. If I can avoid it for as long as possible, that seems the best course of action. I am not a character in a movie. I do not intend to die fighting over my wallet so that others can say "At least he went down swinging." What comfort will that be to my widow? How does it pay the rent or buy her food? If I have to be blunt, ******** on that noise; take the wallet, I can make more money.

 

[Steve]

 

[oftheherd1]

I understand. Let me just say that I have not had 20 years of such training. I've had the basics in the military as an MP and also in my dojo, but the caveat has always been "If you're not prepared to practice this thousands of times and over the course of many years, you'd be a fool to try it." And I agree. For you, having trained and being confident in your skill, I have no doubt it would be a wise choice for you. For me, not so much.

Again, however, if I honestly believe that the man with the gun in my face is actually going to pull the trigger anyway, I'll do whatever I think might protect me to survive. There are no "always do X" rules; each situation is different. Heck, I can even envision a situation in which and armed and drugged gunman fires without even meaning to do so, just because he's so messed up. Yeah, if I think we're in that kind of situation, it's game on, full force, win or lose.

The real-life scenario I always use in these discussions is this one:

Subway Shooting

The situation was that a 71-year-old retired Marine was eating in a Subway restaurant when it was entered by armed men, who proceeded to rob the customers.

He was legally armed with a .45 ACP pistol. However, when the two men demanded his wallet, he gave it to them. He did not draw his weapon at that time.

However, when the two armed men tried to herd the employees and customers into a back room at gunpoint, he drew his weapon and shot one in the chest, one in the head.

That, in my opinion, is a textbook example of a 'good shoot'. The man kept his wits. He evaluated his risk. His goal was clearly to stay alive; he was more than willing to give up his wallet to do so. Only when he determined that the risk to his life was unacceptable did he engage the gunmen. When he made that decision, he acted quickly and decisively. Of course, I'm a bit biased because I am also a Marine.

See Subway Shooting for more on Mr. Lovell. The only thing I was curious about was the report of his flying Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. I was on Okinawa when President Kennedy was killed in Nov 63. I got to Ft Belvoir about Feb 64. The MP company there had a platoon about the size of most MP companies. Its sole function was providing security for the presidential helicopters there, in Texas, and other places the helicopters deployed to. They were still doing that when I left in 1966. They had been doing it for some time. My understanding was that only US Army pilots were piloting President Johnson. I guess I was wrong. Apparently that was a duty shared by the US Army and the US Marine Corps until 1976, when the duty became the sole responsibility of the USMC. The things on learns as one ages.

Anyway, your points are well taken Bill, as well as those of Steve and others. There is no one-fits-all for choosing to fight or be humiliated. I have been in some really sticky situations where I could have easily been killed. In fact, in some I was pretty sure I was going to die. Fortunately I am still around. Mostly because of not giving in but not trying to be aggressive either. I guess sometimes it is how we act and sometimes just the luck of the draw.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

See Subway Shooting for more on Mr. Lovell. The only thing I was curious about was the report of his flying Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. I was on Okinawa when President Kennedy was killed in Nov 63. I got to Ft Belvoir about Feb 64. The MP company there had a platoon about the size of most MP companies. Its sole function was providing security for the presidential helicopters there, in Texas, and other places the helicopters deployed to. They were still doing that when I left in 1966. They had been doing it for some time. My understanding was that only US Army pilots were piloting President Johnson. I guess I was wrong. Apparently that was a duty shared by the US Army and the US Marine Corps until 1976, when the duty became the sole responsibility of the USMC. The things on learns as one ages.

Anyway, your points are well taken Bill, as well as those of Steve and others. There is no one-fits-all for choosing to fight or be humiliated. I have been in some really sticky situations where I could have easily been killed. In fact, in some I was pretty sure I was going to die. Fortunately I am still around. Mostly because of not giving in but not trying to be aggressive either. I guess sometimes it is how we act and sometimes just the luck of the draw.

Agreed. Sometimes things go badly no matter what we do. Other times, one of the most amazing martial arts weapons is politeness. Show some respect and see how things change. No promises that they will, but it costs nothing to try.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if someone is harming a woman, a child or a dog in front of me, I'm going in. Always have and always will. I'm old anyway, what am I going to miss, my golden years?

A friend of mine, after his wife died, he tried to commit suicide. I told him he should either

- go to fight a war, or
- save some woman in the dark alley.

I like the following speed.

 

[Jenna]

Maybe you all are big and tough and look like you can take all comers.. me I do not look like much and I have been in too many situation where I am like SUPPOSED to have that dumb lovely attitude that demand I lie down - or in this case get on my knees - and take what I am given and shut up.. too many people of ill intent get away with far too much because there are exactly those like here who will plead with them, beg, grovel what ever.. "take what you wish only pleeease leave me alone in my precious existence and do not hurt me!"

My nanna would turn in her grave if she thought I would ever present that attitude to any one demanding it of me. I will be on my knees for no person. That **** is weak.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe you all are big and tough and look like you can take all comers.. me I do not look like much and I have been in too many situation where I am like SUPPOSED to have that dumb ******* attitude that demand I lie down - or in this case get on my knees - and take what I am given and shut up.. too many people of ill intent get away with far too much because there are exactly those like here who will plead with them, beg, grovel what ever.. "take what you wish only pleeease leave me alone in my precious existence and do not hurt me!"

My nanna would turn in her grave if she thought I would ever present that attitude to any one demanding it of me. I will be on my knees for no person. That **** is weak.

There is nothing wrong with your point of view, but it is not a self-defense oriented one. As I have been trying to say.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Also you must consider the mentality that we are already on our knees in one form or another, and standing up is only an option if you knew you were on your knees.

 

[Jenna]

Also you must consider the mentality that we are already on our knees in one form or another, and standing up is only an option if you knew you were on your knees.

That is too profound for here ToD. You may be expelled for it! Jx

 

[drop bear]

You can stand back up if you want. Knees are not so limiting.

I mean if we are getting all metaphysical here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can stand back up if you want. Knees are not so limiting.

You just can't knee down for the rest of your life. Also you should not get used to it.

 

[drop bear]

You just can't knee down for the rest of your life. Also you should not get used to it. Everybody will die soon or later.

And here we get the metaphysical, metaphorical? Bit.

If we consider movement getting on your knees does not mean you are going to stay there.

Or life in general say we let an insult to our pride pass does not mean we cannot enforce our authority at a later date.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You just can't knee down for the rest of your life. Also you should not get used to it.

Tell me how you feed your family when you are dead.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Tell me how you feed your family when you are dead.

One should not live in fear all his life and think that he is the prey and others are all predictors. Many years ago, someone threaten to kill me next time we met. I managed to corner him one day and wanted to settle thing once for all. He said, "Look at how strong you are and how weak I'm. How can you take advantage on me?"

After that day, he tried to stay away from me all his life. Did I take my risk to corner him that day? Of course I did. Since I could solve my problem once for all. I made my enemy to feel that he was the prey, my risk taking was worthwhile.

 

[Tames D]

Tell me how you feed your family when you are dead.

It's called life insurance. My family will have plenty to eat when I'm dead.

 

[Tames D]

I look at it this way... I'm threatened for my money, I may still get murdered anyway. I'm not taking that chance. I'll defend myself. Cause, like Bill, I also want to live. I won't leave it in some A holes hands whether I live or die. I'll fight for my life, not close my eyes and hope he doesn't pull the trigger after I give him my keys and wallet.
This is not about being brave, it's about survival.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I look at it this way... I'm threatened for my money, I may still get murdered anyway. I'm not taking that chance. I'll defend myself. Cause, like Bill, I also want to live. I won't leave it in some A holes hands whether I live or die. I'll fight for my life, not close my eyes and hope he doesn't pull the trigger after I give him my keys and wallet.
This is not about being brave, it's about survival.

The overwhelming preponderance of armed robberies do not end in murder. This would tend to make your assumption incorrect. If you want to live, you should choose the option least likely to end in your death.

 

[Tames D]

The overwhelming preponderance of armed robberies do not end in murder. This would tend to make your assumption incorrect. If you want to live, you should choose the option least likely to end in your death.

Sorry Bill. I still won't take that chance. I don't trust anyone that would put a gun in my face. Can you provide statistics to support the statement you made?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All people who have worked in restaurant would know that when armed robberies ask you to go to the walk in, if you don't fight back, you will be shot in the walk in. Everything in our life involve with risk.

 

[Tgace]

I think this is being over thought.

The saying "better to die on your feet"...on its face...says you are going to die either way.

If I'm going, I'm going to do my best to make it tough.

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