The "better to die on your feet" thread

[Bill Mattocks]

I read the above statement recently, but it's not the first time I've read or heard it. The full saying is:

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

Sounds good, doesn't it? Very macho. One thinks of Old Glory and the Marlboro Man and John Wayne and stuff.

The problem is, it is the opposite of self-defense in most circumstances.

OK, if you are definitely going to die, then yes, I suppose it is better to go down swinging, given that even in the face of insurmountable odds, if you at least resist, you could possibly live. A tiny chance is better than none. And dead is dead, so why not try to hurt the bastard that is killing you?

But for most of us, that will never be the case. We won't be faced with situations where we will definitely die no matter which action we take.

We may be faced with situations in which we don't know which response will lead to our death and which will not, but that's a different question.

Self-defense means defense of self. You can not defend yourself when you are dead. You can't defend anyone else when you're dead, either. When you are dead, your options end.

Being alive means still having choices and opportunities.

An old story says that a thief was convicted to die, but he told the king that if he gave him a year, he would teach his horse to fly. The king, realizing he risked little by indulging the condemned man, gave him a year to try. Another prisoner asked the man why he had bothered; it was impossible to teach a horse to fly, so he was only prolonging the inevitable.

The condemned prisoner explained, "A lot can happen in a year. The king could die, in which case there is often a general amnesty to celebrate the new king. There could be war, and the kingdom would need every able body to fight the enemy. The walls of the prison might fall down. And who knows, maybe this damned horse will learn to fly."

The point? When given a choice of dying on your feet or living on your knees, choose life. Life means you might be free again in time; death means death.

Would I grovel, beg, and otherwise humiliate myself to stay alive? You bet I would. That's self-defense, when it comes down to it. Every animal knows that; if faced with certain death, they back off, run away, do what they have to do to obey their prime directive; to stay alive.

To puff up one's chest and declare that they would prefer death to giving up their wallet, or car keys, or backing down to a bar fight, etc....well, that's not self-defense. That's the opposite.

 

[Steve]

I appreciate the post, Bill, and agree completely. What you're talking about here is the difference between taking a principled stand and self defense.

The principled stand is not self defense, surely. What makes it a principled stand is not the fighting back... physically, at least. It's the choice to risk harm knowingly because you have decided that the risk of harm is less important than the response (whatever that response might be).

When Mahatma Gandhi or MLK, Jr. put themselves in harm's way, they did so knowing that it would likely result in physical harm, and may end with their deaths. That is, as you say, the opposite of self defense. But, in Gandhi's writings, he touches on choice, cowardice and the potential for physical harm. Choosing non-violence is not the same thing as avoiding violence. Choosing non-violence is the act of taking a principled stand in the same way that "die on my feet" can be a principled stand. Avoiding violence and harm is self defense, but may be a sign of cowardice.

Interesting thread. I look forward to reading the discussion.

 

[hoshin1600]

I agree with your sentiments Bill but I feel you are using the quote out of its correct context. You or people you have heard, are putting the quote in an every day self defense situation. It doesn't belong there. Rather the context fits much better within a frame work like ISIS in the middle east. People are prisoners within their own society and culture. When faced with things like an oppressive government the quote makes perfect sense. When used outside of the correct context the use of the quote is like a hat and a hand bag on a pig.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree with your sentiments Bill but I feel you are using the quote out of its correct context. You or people you have heard, are putting the quote in an every day self defense situation. It doesn't belong there. Rather the context fits much better within a frame work like ISIS in the middle east. People are prisoners within their own society and culture. When faced with things like an oppressive government the quote makes perfect sense. When used outside of the correct context the use of the quote is like a hat and a hand bag on a pig.

I agree, but unfortunately, one hears people making such declaration with regard to actual self-defense situations all the time. One describes a threat scenario and then asks for advice on how best to defeat one's attacker, on the base assumption that giving up one's wallet or car keys simply isn't an option worthy of consideration; one *must* fight back or risk not being a martial artist.

 

[RTKDCMB]

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees."

Sounds very Klingon.

 

[Buka]

The OP covers a lot of circumstances. And I think everyting I do would depend on just those circumstances.
I'm not about to go looking, and I don't want to be part of no posse. In those circumstances I'll take the Philo Sandeen route. He was a character on the Rockford Files. When Rockford was heading out to go after the bad guys, Philo said, "History dictates that someone stay behind to tell the tale. I say let them someone be Philo Sandeen."

I'll gladly back down from a bar fight, no problem there. But for someone of my background if you can't see trouble in a bar coming from a mile away you just ain't paying attention. Or you're young, drunk or blind. Really it is just that easy.

But you ain't getting my car keys no matter what your deal is. Hell, my house keys are on there. Is my car worth my life? No more than you trying to take my car is worth your life.

Would I grovel and beg to stay alive? Hell, yes. I'm married, groveling and begging are second nature to me. But if someone is harming a woman, a child or a dog in front of me, I'm going in. Always have and always will. I'm old anyway, what am I going to miss, my golden years?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The OP covers a lot of circumstances. And I think everyting I do would depend on just those circumstances.
I'm not about to go looking, and I don't want to be part of no posse. In those circumstances I'll take the Philo Sandeen route. He was a character on the Rockford Files. When Rockford was heading out to go after the bad guys, Philo said, "History dictates that someone stay behind to tell the tale. I say let them someone be Philo Sandeen."

I'll gladly back down from a bar fight, no problem there. But for someone of my background if you can't see trouble in a bar coming from a mile away you just ain't paying attention. Or you're young, drunk or blind. Really it is just that easy.

But you ain't getting my car keys no matter what your deal is. Hell, my house keys are on there. Is my car worth my life? No more than you trying to take my car is worth your life.

Would I grovel and beg to stay alive? Hell, yes. I'm married, groveling and begging are second nature to me. But if someone is harming a woman, a child or a dog in front of me, I'm going in. Always have and always will. I'm old anyway, what am I going to miss, my golden years?

I see nothing inherently wrong with deciding that some action is more important than one's actual life. I merely point out that brave or noble or morally correct and dead is still dead. If your survival is what you consider to be of paramount importance, then such behavior is contrary to that. No one is required to always choose to save their own life regardless of other considerations. I just suggest that people consider that before they have to make such decisions. In my case, for example, car keys are not worth my life, their lives, no life at all. They are things. Things can be replaced, but only if I'm still alive to do so. I like my truck. I won't be driving it much when I manage to retain the keys but die in the process.

 

[Tames D]

My first thought when I read the OP was 'fighting on your feet vs being on your knees in an orange jump suit'.
I guess my question is... what would you do if you found yourself on your knees in an orange jump suit? I know what I would do. I'd like to hear others responses.

 

[Buka]

I see nothing inherently wrong with deciding that some action is more important than one's actual life. I merely point out that brave or noble or morally correct and dead is still dead. If your survival is what you consider to be of paramount importance, then such behavior is contrary to that. No one is required to always choose to save their own life regardless of other considerations. I just suggest that people consider that before they have to make such decisions. In my case, for example, car keys are not worth my life, their lives, no life at all. They are things. Things can be replaced, but only if I'm still alive to do so. I like my truck. I won't be driving it much when I manage to retain the keys but die in the process.

You are correct, and I can't really argue with any of it.

And I certainly wouldn't teach or encourage anyone to defend their car, like you said It's just a thing.

But if I can't defend my principles when they're tested they weren't really principles, they were just nonsense. My car is a 15 year old clunker. Ain't worth squat. But it is to me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Would I grovel, beg, and otherwise humiliate myself to stay alive? You bet I would.

Sometimes this is what actually gets you killed. There have been many people who have grovelled and begged for their lives and it still were killed. I can only speak from my experience on this and is no way a go to plan. When I was in that position I didn't beg, nor did I try to make the person angry. From the time the gun was pointed to my head to the time he walked away, I was focused on presenting myself as someone who he didn't want to shoot. There were a few things that I knew right away. I wanted to stay on my feet for mobility purposes. If I'm going to be shot anyway then being on my feet is the better choice. I also didn't want to show fear because I didn't want to empower him, but I didn't want to over do it because I didn't want to appear defiant. He was already angry and I was in a bad position to try to wrestle the gun away. I didn't want to beg because I didn't know if begging was something he hated with disgust and I didn't want to present myself as something that was disgusting. In general with don't think well of something that disgusts us.

The time that I could have spent begging for my life was spent listening to him and trying to respond in a way that would be least likely to cause him to pull the trigger. I also tried to slightly reposition so that the gun wasn't pointing dead center of my head. I also tried to watch for intent. I thought if I could pick up intent then I could react seconds before he pulls the trigger. My thoughts were the longer I can delay him the most likely I'll be able to get out of this situation either by positioning myself to fight for the gun if the opportunity presents itself or by him not shooting me. Accepting death was not factored in because that was totally out of my control. I felt my only chance was to keep my ears and eyes opened for an opportunity to delay, reposition, and not be the person who he wants to shoot. Right before he walked away he said that he liked me and acknowledge that I didn't beg and show fear. I think the only reason he said that was because I agreed with him on some of his rant and didn't present myself as being the thing that he hated. The experience was like walking a tightrope made of dental floss. I have never been so focused in my life.

I wasn't being robbed in this case, the man was just crazy and angry. There was no chance for me to avoid it. I opened a door of a building, entered, and had a gun placed to my head.

 

[Jenna]

Perhaps there is more to the sentiment than just two peiple involved in some altercation over stuff??

For me, I exist under the threat my heart will fail and have done for some years. Still, I have no intention though of acquiescing to an inevitable death. The same death that is inevitable for each of us. To me, knowing in full colour 4K HD how I will die rouses a defiance in me that is well stated by a preference to die standing rather than live kneeling.

We are not designed to be on our knees. It is only the fear of death and the absurd notion that we somehow "own" our possessions, our loved ones, that they are "ours".. it is these things that can cause a person to fall on their knees and plead for life. Yet death of the body is certain. So where is the reason to be on ones knees??

Jx

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sometimes this is what actually gets you killed. There have been many people who have grovelled and begged for their lives and it still were killed.

There is no way to guarantee that any given response will have a positive outcome. Armed criminals are, by their nature, somewhat unpredictable. Many factors go into a decision to fight back, flee, submit to the demand (whatever that might be), etc. I can't make a hard-and-fast rule and I don't think anyone can. "If bad guy does X, then you must do Y and you will survive." Or, as you said above, "sometimes..."

The point I was making is this; if I believe that I have a better chance of survival by giving up my keys, wallet, car, etc, than if I would if I fought back, then I will do the thing that I believe will result in my survival. That does not mean I will be right; I could submit and be killed anyway. However, if I fight and the aggressor has the actual means to kill me, then there is a high possibility he will kill me. I will not take the option most likely to result in my death in order to be more manly, macho, martial artist-y, etc. But that is merely a choice, one among many. It is no less valid to decide to fight over any act of aggression. But that's not self-defense if it is more likely to result the victim's death, is it?

Self-defense, as I keep saying, is about defense of self. If one chooses to fight an armed aggressor over car keys, no problem. But let's not call that self-defense, because it's not.

I do have some hard-and-fast rules for myself, though. For example, although I believe I would hand over my wallet, keys, car, etc, to an armed aggressor and hope for the best outcome, I would not submit to being made to go anywhere. For example, if a gunman tried to drag me into a back room, make me get into a car, etc, then it's game on. My belief is that such actions have a very high probability of my being killed as a result, so at that point, I may as well fight back with all I have; I have nothing to lose in my estimation.

I have had previous discussions with others on this topic, and the thought has been raised that if I wait to fight back until someone has ordered me into a car, back room, etc, then it may be too late to fight back effectively. This is true; it's the chance one takes.

No one can say what an armed aggressor will do with any certainty; no one knows what is in their mind or what their capabilities really are. All one can do is attempt to read the situation as best as one is able, to make an intelligent decision that is geared towards survival and not some macho movie bullcrap, and then to act on that; the outcome may or may not result in one's own death, but what can you do? There are no guarantees in this world.

In any case, no response I make or don't make will be in consideration of whether or not others might consider my actions cowardly. That's not really something that will comfort my widow "Well, ma'am, he's dead, but at least he was brave." Granted, if I am going to die anyway, might as well be brave. But if someone sticks a gun in my face and says "Give me your wallet," chances are very high I'm going to carefully and slowly reach into my back pocket, retrieve my wallet, and hope to walk away from the confrontation. "Honey I got robbed" sounds much better to me than the police telling her I'm dead and oh by the way, here's his wallet that the robber didn't get.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Perhaps there is more to the sentiment than just two peiple involved in some altercation over stuff??

For me, I exist under the threat my heart will fail and have done for some years. Still, I have no intention though of acquiescing to an inevitable death. The same death that is inevitable for each of us. To me, knowing in full colour 4K HD how I will die rouses a defiance in me that is well stated by a preference to die standing rather than live kneeling.

We are not designed to be on our knees. It is only the fear of death and the absurd notion that we somehow "own" our possessions, our loved ones, that they are "ours".. it is these things that can cause a person to fall on their knees and plead for life. Yet death of the body is certain. So where is the reason to be on ones knees??

Jx

The reason is the prime imperative of all life, to continue living. I'll do that on my knees if I must, because as long as I draw breath, one day I may again rise to my feet. If I choose death instead, I will never do so, it's over. Where there is life, as they say, there is hope.

I suffer from diabetes, which is slowly robbing me of a variety of physical capabilities; it is a progressive disease. But I take my medication, live with the side-effects, and try to lose weight and stay in some kind of physical condition. Why not say to hell with it, life is short, pass me the beer and cigarettes? Because I prefer life over death, that's why.

I'm not going to be philosophical over the meaning of life and why one would choose to submit to armed aggression when someone puts a gun in my face and demands my wallet or car keys. I have responsibilities that I feel are far more important to me than either my possessions or my poetic outlook towards the impermanence of life. I have a family to provide for, and I'm still fond of drawing breath.

EDIT: And may I say once again, nothing wrong with choosing to fight on principle; I merely not that it is not technically self-defense. It is, I suppose, principle-defense. All good, but let's understand what we are fighting for; our principles or to stay alive. Each is fine, everybody has to choose for themselves which is appropriate in any given situation.

 

[Buka]

There is no way to guarantee that any given response will have a positive outcome. Armed criminals are, by their nature, somewhat unpredictable. Many factors go into a decision to fight back, flee, submit to the demand (whatever that might be), etc. I can't make a hard-and-fast rule and I don't think anyone can. "If bad guy does X, then you must do Y and you will survive." Or, as you said above, "sometimes..."

The point I was making is this; if I believe that I have a better chance of survival by giving up my keys, wallet, car, etc, than if I would if I fought back, then I will do the thing that I believe will result in my survival. That does not mean I will be right; I could submit and be killed anyway. However, if I fight and the aggressor has the actual means to kill me, then there is a high possibility he will kill me. I will not take the option most likely to result in my death in order to be more manly, macho, martial artist-y, etc. But that is merely a choice, one among many. It is no less valid to decide to fight over any act of aggression. But that's not self-defense if it is more likely to result the victim's death, is it?

Self-defense, as I keep saying, is about defense of self. If one chooses to fight an armed aggressor over car keys, no problem. But let's not call that self-defense, because it's not.

I do have some hard-and-fast rules for myself, though. For example, although I believe I would hand over my wallet, keys, car, etc, to an armed aggressor and hope for the best outcome, I would not submit to being made to go anywhere. For example, if a gunman tried to drag me into a back room, make me get into a car, etc, then it's game on. My belief is that such actions have a very high probability of my being killed as a result, so at that point, I may as well fight back with all I have; I have nothing to lose in my estimation.

I have had previous discussions with others on this topic, and the thought has been raised that if I wait to fight back until someone has ordered me into a car, back room, etc, then it may be too late to fight back effectively. This is true; it's the chance one takes.

No one can say what an armed aggressor will do with any certainty; no one knows what is in their mind or what their capabilities really are. All one can do is attempt to read the situation as best as one is able, to make an intelligent decision that is geared towards survival and not some macho movie bullcrap, and then to act on that; the outcome may or may not result in one's own death, but what can you do? There are no guarantees in this world.

In any case, no response I make or don't make will be in consideration of whether or not others might consider my actions cowardly. That's not really something that will comfort my widow "Well, ma'am, he's dead, but at least he was brave." Granted, if I am going to die anyway, might as well be brave. But if someone sticks a gun in my face and says "Give me your wallet," chances are very high I'm going to carefully and slowly reach into my back pocket, retrieve my wallet, and hope to walk away from the confrontation. "Honey I got robbed" sounds much better to me than the police telling her I'm dead and oh by the way, here's his wallet that the robber didn't get.

You give such great posts, such great threads.

I have a different take on some things. But it's just my take.

"Self-defense, as I keep saying, is about defense of self. If one chooses to fight an armed aggressor over car keys, no problem. But let's not call that self-defense, because it's not."

But to me, it is. There are caveats to be sure - if I'm with someone else that is not prepared for the situation my main goal is their safety and only their safety. Otherwise, like the old saying goes, "everybody has to be doing something when they die"....if he wants to be attempting to take my car that's his poor choice.

But if someone sticks a gun in my face and says "Give me your wallet," chances are very high I'm going to carefully and slowly reach into my back pocket, retrieve my wallet, and hope to walk away from the confrontation.

A small difference, but an important one. If he's four feet away I'll give him my wallet, shoes, anything he wants. But if he sticks a gun in my face and hasn't pulled the trigger he's a fool. A dead fool. I taught close quarter weapons disarming to Feds and such for twenty years and I'm really good at it. (But I have no idea how to disarm a knife)(well, an idea, but I can't do it myself) Guns are a long range weapon. Up real close if they aren't fired first, they can be a weakness. They are so much easier to take away than edged weapons.

And I understand the argument that making a move against one isn't smart and isn't self defense. But to me it is.

As for going someplace else with the aggressor - I'm with you. "A secondary crime scene" is one of the most frightening terms I know. Fight right then and there. NEVER go someplace else with them, ever.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A small difference, but an important one. If he's four feet away I'll give him my wallet, shoes, anything he wants. But if he sticks a gun in my face and hasn't pulled the trigger he's a fool. A dead fool. I taught close quarter weapons disarming to Feds and such for twenty years and I'm really good at it. (But I have no idea how to disarm a knife)(well, an idea, but I can't do it myself) Guns are a long range weapon. Up real close if they aren't fired first, they can be a weakness. They are so much easier to take away than edged weapons.

I understand. Let me just say that I have not had 20 years of such training. I've had the basics in the military as an MP and also in my dojo, but the caveat has always been "If you're not prepared to practice this thousands of times and over the course of many years, you'd be a fool to try it." And I agree. For you, having trained and being confident in your skill, I have no doubt it would be a wise choice for you. For me, not so much.

Again, however, if I honestly believe that the man with the gun in my face is actually going to pull the trigger anyway, I'll do whatever I think might protect me to survive. There are no "always do X" rules; each situation is different. Heck, I can even envision a situation in which and armed and drugged gunman fires without even meaning to do so, just because he's so messed up. Yeah, if I think we're in that kind of situation, it's game on, full force, win or lose.

The real-life scenario I always use in these discussions is this one:

Subway Shooting

The situation was that a 71-year-old retired Marine was eating in a Subway restaurant when it was entered by armed men, who proceeded to rob the customers.

He was legally armed with a .45 ACP pistol. However, when the two men demanded his wallet, he gave it to them. He did not draw his weapon at that time.

However, when the two armed men tried to herd the employees and customers into a back room at gunpoint, he drew his weapon and shot one in the chest, one in the head.

That, in my opinion, is a textbook example of a 'good shoot'. The man kept his wits. He evaluated his risk. His goal was clearly to stay alive; he was more than willing to give up his wallet to do so. Only when he determined that the risk to his life was unacceptable did he engage the gunmen. When he made that decision, he acted quickly and decisively. Of course, I'm a bit biased because I am also a Marine.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

For me, I exist under the threat my heart will fail and have done for some years. Still, I have no intention though of acquiescing to an inevitable death. The same death that is inevitable for each of us. To me, knowing in full colour 4K HD how I will die rouses a defiance in me that is well stated by a preference to die standing rather than live kneeling.

Jenna, I understand your defiance. I had a heart attack at 39, when I was just returning to MA training after a long absence. After receiving a stent, a few people asked me if I was going to quit "for my health". Instead, I opted to train harder, doubling the number of classes I attended each week. I wasn't about to let my heart issue beat me without giving it my full effort. Some day, it may kill me... but not as long as I can fight it.
I hope you never lose your attitude.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yet death of the body is certain. So where is the reason to be on ones knees??

Very good point

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Very good point

Eh...not for me.

Death is certain. Why not throw oneself over a cliff now and avoid the rush?

For me, there are a couple of very good reasons. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide what those might be, but trust me, you can't do them when you're dead.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no way to guarantee that any given response will have a positive outcome. Armed criminals are, by their nature, somewhat unpredictable. Many factors go into a decision to fight back, flee, submit to the demand (whatever that might be), etc. I can't make a hard-and-fast rule and I don't think anyone can. "If bad guy does X, then you must do Y and you will survive." Or, as you said above, "sometimes..."

The point I was making is this; if I believe that I have a better chance of survival by giving up my keys, wallet, car, etc, than if I would if I fought back, then I will do the thing that I believe will result in my survival. That does not mean I will be right; I could submit and be killed anyway. However, if I fight and the aggressor has the actual means to kill me, then there is a high possibility he will kill me. I will not take the option most likely to result in my death in order to be more manly, macho, martial artist-y, etc. But that is merely a choice, one among many. It is no less valid to decide to fight over any act of aggression. But that's not self-defense if it is more likely to result the victim's death, is it?

Self-defense, as I keep saying, is about defense of self. If one chooses to fight an armed aggressor over car keys, no problem. But let's not call that self-defense, because it's not.

I do have some hard-and-fast rules for myself, though. For example, although I believe I would hand over my wallet, keys, car, etc, to an armed aggressor and hope for the best outcome, I would not submit to being made to go anywhere. For example, if a gunman tried to drag me into a back room, make me get into a car, etc, then it's game on. My belief is that such actions have a very high probability of my being killed as a result, so at that point, I may as well fight back with all I have; I have nothing to lose in my estimation.

I have had previous discussions with others on this topic, and the thought has been raised that if I wait to fight back until someone has ordered me into a car, back room, etc, then it may be too late to fight back effectively. This is true; it's the chance one takes.

No one can say what an armed aggressor will do with any certainty; no one knows what is in their mind or what their capabilities really are. All one can do is attempt to read the situation as best as one is able, to make an intelligent decision that is geared towards survival and not some macho movie bullcrap, and then to act on that; the outcome may or may not result in one's own death, but what can you do? There are no guarantees in this world.

In any case, no response I make or don't make will be in consideration of whether or not others might consider my actions cowardly. That's not really something that will comfort my widow "Well, ma'am, he's dead, but at least he was brave." Granted, if I am going to die anyway, might as well be brave. But if someone sticks a gun in my face and says "Give me your wallet," chances are very high I'm going to carefully and slowly reach into my back pocket, retrieve my wallet, and hope to walk away from the confrontation. "Honey I got robbed" sounds much better to me than the police telling her I'm dead and oh by the way, here's his wallet that the robber didn't get.

Thanks

"In any case, no response I make or don't make will be in consideration of whether or not others might consider my actions cowardly" I agree with this statement 1000% If that thought comes in mind then I'm not focused on defending myself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Eh...not for me.

Death is certain. Why not throw oneself over a cliff now and avoid the rush?

For me, there are a couple of very good reasons. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide what those might be, but trust me, you can't do them when you're dead.

I think you are taking her statement out of context