The Arts Today: A Comparison, A Rant

[ap Oweyn]

My apologies. Feel free to address my points, if you wish.

No worries MJS. I hope I've addressed some of them in my response to Xinglu. But I'm still planning on addressing yours in full. But I'm a stay-at-home dad. And my diminuitive master is calling.


Stuart

 

[ap Oweyn]

That was my thinking as well. Its not that we're dangling it in front of them, but simply making them wait. God forbid a child waits for something.

I think there's a difference between telling them that something is going to take A LOT of time and effort versus telling them that they can't have something because they're a kid. One makes it clear that what they want is attainable, but far from easy. The other takes it totally out of their locus of control and into the hands of Father Time.

 

[MJS]

Well now, wait a minute, Xinglu. I said that expectations should be scaled. Not lowered. I've clearly stated that various times. And what you're describing here is a scaled expectation. You were expected to have a technical command. You were NOT expected to "beat" to a grown adult by "taking him out." And you certainly weren't expected to beat a grown adult in a real, no-holds-barred situation.

That's scaled. Literally, scale pertains to size, yes? You were expected to show a good command of technique, but there was an acknowledgment that, given your relative sizes, you weren't going to dole out the damage required to eliminate the threat (had the threat been real).

Let me use this as an example...I'm not expecting to put a 12yo kid, against a 40yo adult, who weighs 3 times the kid, in a sparring match. But, If that 12yo can't fight against another 12yo without crying and complaining, then IMO, he's not ready for BB. The same with an adult. If by the time you're say brown belt, that adult can't handle getting grabbed and moved around, during techniques, without complaining that its too hard, IMO, thats in a way, taking away from my training. I dont want to sound selfish and maybe I do, but I'm there not only to reap the benefits of the other things I gain from the arts, but also for SD, which is at the top of my list. I never asked for a promotion, and there have been times when I failed a test, but I'm glad that I failed, because if I was just handed that belt anyways, I think it takes away from it a bit.

Again, this is something I said in my earlier post. That we should talk with students about what really matters. If your school was up front about what the real objective is, and made it clear that the black belt wasn't the epitome of martial artist-ness, then they did what I described.

I know you're addressing this to another member, but I'll comment on a part of this post. This IMO is the biggest problem. The inst. isn't making his/herself clear up front. I met up with a Martial Talk member this past Sunday. Joe aka: Just2kicku, was who I met. He commented, and I agree, that not only should a newbie watch the beginners class, but also an advanced class or two. Why? So the student will know whats coming down the road. Could this scare people away? Maybe, but at least it'll take away from the shock factor down the road.

I also realize that some school owners have other jobs, vs. those that run a school as their sole income. But still, even if you have a commercial school, and student enrollment is important, I still dont think the inst. should lower themselves and their standards. I'm a big Survivor fan. I watch the show every week. The show has been on for quite some time. I have to laugh when I hear people complain about the lack of food, how hungry they are, that they have to eat disgusting things, that they're subjected to the elements, that they're not going to shower or shave for long periods of time. They act like this was a shock to them. Why? How could it be? They didn't know what they were getting into? Its kinda like a kid having a childhood dream of becoming a cop. I had that dream, as my Grandfather was one. Yet to think you're going to become a cop and never have to worry about getting into a fight, have to work long hours, crazy shifts, deal with a wide variey of lifestyles and people, is kidding yourself. Sorry for the rant, but I got on a roll.

I said that we can't hold up the black belt as being the most important thing and then offer no avenue for earning it. You're countering with a school that DIDN'T present the black belt as the most important thing. And I stated clearly that, if the black belt is unattainable, then we should stop dangling it in front of kids' (and parents') noses as "the goal." Your school apparently did just the opposite.

But there is an avenue to get it, if you're a kid. This is where the Jr. BB comes into play. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post. The kid, who is young, say 12, gets the jrbb, and learns all of the other stuff that they didn't, because of their age, and then, at 16, 17 or 18, they're ready to test for adult BB. I'd rather see that, than a 12yo 3rd degree.

Then you don't actually disagree with me, as I said I don't use a belt system anyway. But that, if you're going to use one, setting objectives that a child can't achieve, without telling the child as much up front, is a mistake. Conversely, I said that if you DO award the child such a belt as an acknowledgment of progress, it should come with clear explanations of what that realistically means.

My Arnis system that I train in, has belts, but they're not worn. Actually for the under BB ranks, you just move up a level, with the rank, even though you dont get the belt. Once you reach BB, then you get a belt, but even then, I don't wear mine unless its a special occassion, ie: belt tests, or the group shot at a camp/seminar. Personally, I like this. And even now, my Kenpo BB, is a plain belt. No stripes, nothing but a plain belt.

Again, no disrespect intended. I think we're closer to agreeing than it seems. And even if I'm wrong, and we agree to disagree, there's no hostility in it. I hope that's clear.


Stuart

I think that we agree more than we disagree, as well.

 

[MJS]

I think there's a difference between telling them that something is going to take A LOT of time and effort versus telling them that they can't have something because they're a kid. One makes it clear that what they want is attainable, but far from easy. The other takes it totally out of their locus of control and into the hands of Father Time.

I agree, and this is why I think teachers should be upfront. If they have a policy to not ask when promotions will happen, then that should be made clear and it should be honored.

Inst: "Hello Mrs. Jones, Joey. Let me explain a little about the school."

Mrs. Jones: "How long will it take for my little Joey to get his black belt?"

Inst: "Well Mrs. Jones, it takes at least 6yrs. Joey is only 5, but that doesnt mean that when he's 11, he'll get a BB. I do not award them to people under 16. What I do though, is award a Jr. BB, which allows him to learn the rest of the material that is required of him. The JRBB is one step below full adult BB. He has something to show for his hard work, but will not be considered a full BB until he is 16."

Now, Mrs. Jones has 2 options: 1) Stand up, thank the inst. for his time, and walk down to the McDojang, or 2) see that she is enrolling her son in a good school, one that doesnt hand out rank, makes the students work, and decides to enroll Joey.

 

[ap Oweyn]

MJS,

I agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts. I'm an advocate of the Jr. BB myself. It serves as a recognition that the child has achieved something important, but still indicates the reality of their situation, as I mentioned earlier.

That's part of what I would consider scaling the experience.

I've never advocated letting people glide through a ranking system just so they don't feel badly about themselves. It's supposed to be a challenge.

For the record, our current arnis club takes the same approach. People have rank, but don't wear belts. I'm anticipating it'll work just fine, though we've just instituted that particular measure. I came up in an arnis system that had a full belt system and we wore them every class. Then another system where we didn't have or wear ranks of any sort. This is the first time that I'll be doing some sort of middle ground.


Stuart

 

[Zero]

I've learned that most people only want to be able to say they are black belts. They don't actually want to put in the blood, sweat, and tears necessary to achieve the actual skill that was once associated with that rank.

They'd rather pay their dues, show up a few times week, and get their certificate and belt saying they are a black belt in about a year.

There was a time when simply being a "black belt" garnered respect... that was before the McDojo and the Power Rangers. LOL

CC, sadly you have hit the nail on the head regarding many in the MAs, across many different styles.

Even when I was a junior, yellow up to brown, I could beat most black belts who would come training at our goju ryu club and also in tournaments (from goju and other karate styles). I think given that our club had some very accomplished ex-heavy weight national title holders other clubs would come (with good intentions) quite regularly to train with us and the sensei and spar. I was generally surprised or disappointed at the lack of fighting skill and mind set by many black belts and dans that I would spar with. I am not saying they were not good but I had always expected another level from someone who is 2nd dan or more... They had obviously done the time on their katas to meet grading requirements but I don't think the majority spent that extra time either in the dojo or at home on the bag really working out techniques and timing - and also conditioning.

I think I was lucky that I found a club run by those that had been full contact and serious competitors in their day and that also worked full time in dangerous enviornments (LEOs etc). We'd have people come in for a session or two and then never show again, perhaps as they found easier avenues to BB or whatever they were after elsewhere! I still remember the hiding I was given by the sensei (having switched from TKD to goju) the first night I demo'd the club. Nothing serious of course but cut lip, bruised and winded with a solar hit I droped like a sack of spuds. But, maybe with some trepidation, I was back there the next week, as I thought (like you obviously) sh#t, if these old dudes can woop my **** so easily I want to be trained by these guys!!