The Arts Today: A Comparison, A Rant

[ralphmcpherson]

I think it comes down also to what people want out of martial arts these days. I did martial arts very briefly 25 years ago and most people did MA to learn how to fight , how to defend themselves etc. I started back in martial arts in my 30's and realise that a huge percentage of people doing MA have no interest whatsoever in "learning how to fight" , in fact most people I speak to have started in the arts to get fit , healthy , strong , flexible etc. I know this is the case for me , I havent been in a fight for 20 years so I dont see learning how to fight as a priority of mine. With more people joining up for the fitness reasons the whole outlook on MA has changed.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

Society, by and large, is less tolerant of "discomfort" then it once was. Most students want to learn "martial arts" with the least bit of pain and discomfort possible. Many will not stay if they perceive they are being "hurt". Even though the teaching premise of the arts has the potential to hurt or injure others.

Part of the current commercial school "model" is to teach with as little pain and discomfort possible. Your average student these days will not continue to come to class if hurt consistantly. To stay in business you have to keep students. You keep more students if you do not hurt them. There are still those students that do not mind some pain and bruising. Sadly, they have become the minority. I think as teachers we should give the students what they want, within reason, on an individual basis. You can be a little "rougher" with those that do not mind. However the "rougher" students should not be paired with the ones that do not appreciate that style of training. Sometimes hard to achieve a balance there, so the best "default" is to less rough, generally.

All this said without mentioning the "liability" aspect. I believe liability is the REAL reason the training methods have changed over the years. We live in a sue happy environment. One in which you can easily spend thousands of dollars defending your innocence. A truly sad state of affairs. Best to not be "on the radar" at all. You do that by dialing back your training and teaching methods. No longer will a "waiver", words or a handshake save you from the "litigation mongers". The problem is our society in general, of late.

I am sorry about this, but that is what we have to work with, in most cases, these days.

Good topic. Thank you.
Milt G.

 

[just2kicku]

Alright, I'm gonna chime in with my $.02.

I feel that society as whole has gotten too soft.

When I started, if as a kid you got your face broke, too bad. You rubbed some dirt on it and kept fighting. You dared not cry, because your parents would knock the **** out of you and give you something to cry about. Back then, parents pushed their kids, made sure they practiced and knew what they were supposed to do.

Fast forward to today, with "positive reinforcement" and time outs, instead of the good old fashioned *** whooping that one used to get when I was a kid, and you have the perfect scenario for the Mcdojo. A non contact, (just like at home) system that rewards kids with a belt for learning how to tie their damn shoes.

Now I'm not saying that you should take it to the other extreme either, but I think a little blood in the dojo is a good thing. I also think if parents would quit babying their kids, and not threaten to sue because Johnny got cut, then they would have tougher kids.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Train old school.
Get sued by mommy.
Get fired for not being able to work.
Have your sanity questioned by those who don't think you're sane.

 

[Jenna]

Train old school.
Get sued by mommy.
Get fired for not being able to work.
Have your sanity questioned by those who don't think you're sane.

Method Man? No wait.. I got it.. RZA?? MC Hammer? Haha I am just joking with you, that is one very concise response. Jenna x

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

For me part of the answer is compartmentalization.

Our regular class as a rule does not allow anyone under 18 in (There can be exceptions if the youngster is family to one our students or associates.)

We tell people right up front that fighting hurts and so does training to fight, no way around it if they actually want to learn to take care of themselves in a violent encounter.

We are polite and friendly but we make it clear that you need to prove yourself to us not the other way around. You either want it or not it's a semi eleiteist attitude. (Seeing as our old school was 90% Military and half of those were Spec Ops, we see the value in that mindset as long as you are not rude to people.)

We would rather have 4 people on the mats who train hard and realisticall and want to be there then 20 who go through the motions half assedly while patting themselves on the back.

I also run a Kidz Martial Arts Club at the gym I work at but I do some things differently.

First off I dont teach our style per say, it's a combo of things I have learned throughout my life. There are techniques from Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Jujutsu, Judo ect. The idea is to give the kids a broad expouser to the arts so that they can see for themselves what elements of the arts they like and so if they want to delve deeper into say kicking and puinching, they might go into karate as they age, another into Judo and some might want to join my regular class.

Right now I have no real ranks other than a couple of the older kids are refered top as Centurions and the little ones are all Legeonaries (Yes I'm a history nut) and I say this with a smile. The "Centurians" look out and help the younger kids, they leanr to act as an example, this I feel is good for building charachter.

I want them to learn real attributes for future study and to feel that they dont need some worthless belt given to them for validation. Their validation is "Your getting really good at that!" " Great Job!" "Now that's being a leader!"

Rule #1 Listen to Sensei, it's not because I know all there is to know, it's because I whant you all to learn and be safe and I have a plan to do that.

Rule #2 Be good to each other, You are here to learn from each other. You are all a team.

Rule #3 Martial arts are for protecting youraself, others and what is right in life, never to bully. We teach you real techniques here, let other kids pretend to be Power Rangers or Jedi Knights at martial arts class

Rule #4 Fighting Hurts, unless you are really hurt, suck it up and train.

 

[Omar B]

It's like my dad always says, "You play pool up to match your opponent." It's made painfully clear in many cases, if someone's playing against you in whatever sport a crap opponent brings nothing to the table in terms of skill, strategy or talent. While it's the reverse for someone with skill. Having said that, the lowering of standards, the handing out of belts, the padding, just lowers the standard of martial arts across the board.

When I was learning we didn't use padding, we learned control. Stop the kick before making contact, light contact, or pushing through the target. It's a concept that's almost lost, kids can't measure distance, they can't pull back on a strike if Sensei yell "Stop." Subtleties of form and muscle control are lost, heck, even a missile can be aborted.

 

[Zero]

I, like many others I'm sure, hear you loud and clear MJS. I've also been in MA for over 20 years now and have trained and competed in judo, TKD and karate.

A while back a colleague heard Itrained in karate and freestyle. She then said, "Oh my daughter's a blackbelt" with this kind of gleamingly proud smile. I almost laughed in her face, given her kid is not even in high school yet!

Having kicked the stuffing out of more BBs and dans than I can remember and also being served myself by fighters in different styles with no senior belt or colour system, I've concluded that belts in general don't mean a monkey's brass razzoo (whatever that means) for a rating of ability.

Probably the best all over club was my one back home in goju ryu. Run by a cop (4th dan) and a huge wrestler/bouncer and the head sensei who owned a store near by. They ran the dojo afterwork for the love of the art and for mixing it up and training others of a like mind. Subs were $10 per month to cover rent of the hall and the odd new boxing bag.
Like Omar, we would also go around to the sensei's house and work out and train on his car pad. Protection was nothing but a mouth guard and a groin guard if you wanted and it ranged from bare fists to heavy gloves depending on the type of training. Blood on the floor and all that.

Sometimes I'd come home on a Friday night from training and have to soak in a hot bath til almost midnight before I could move and go out on the town, those were the days.

Thing is though, the head sensei took kids and intermediate classes when we worked alongside him doing competition sparring/training and the like. We also were asked to mix it up with the kids for their benefit; they never had any more preotective gear, we just used that thing called "control".

The seniors and older practitioners gave and got given it to the level they were comfortable with, nothing more.

I've actually switched to muay thai and mma as I have found it hard recently to find a karate club or style that competes and trains allowing head strikes with the fist/hand, I've tried shotokan, goju ryu and kyokoshin here. It's all kyokoshin-like rules. Which is fine and hard-core but I like to be able to hit someone in the face/head when I'm fighting in tournaments as this is what I do on the street if needed. Hell, I know generally a leg attack to the head is slower than a fist (although Bill Wallace would disagree) but a shin to the side of the head opens up the old mellon a helluva lot more than one normal punch!!

So maybe MJS, you and those like minded gotta stick to the old school type dojos and if inclined send your kids there. The McDs are for the main stream couscous eating parents that need someone to babysit the kids.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats *** if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. ....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their *** on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats *** if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. ....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their *** on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

The big change came in the eighties.

Dojo owners saw the potential market in people looking to get into shape but not wanting to go to the gym out of embarrassment or just not liking the environment.

Along the same lines, by that time, the children's market already existed, but it was taken to new heights. Dojo owners figured out that if they offered an after school program with pick up and drop off, they were able to get more students because they had addressed a need in the customer's mind.

The big conflict is this: people who want to get into shape just want to get into shape and learn some techniques that may be helpful if they are mugged. In their mind, it is the learning the of the technique, not the hard practice, that makes them safe. But the main reason that they joined was that they could get into shape in an environment that was not chock full of muscle men and where they did not have to wear shorts or clothing that revealed how out of shape they truly were.

And people who have their kids in martial arts have them there to make them better kids, not better fighters. They were drawn in by things like, "Discipline, self control, courtesy" that are splashed all over the literature. Let us not forget the promise of a healthier kid and possibly better grades in school due to the aforementioned dicipline and self control. They want their kids in an environment where postitive values are reinforced and where their kid can get exercise while they are still at work.

Neither group really wants to be good fighters.

By appealing to these two groups, especially the children's market, the schools have on the one hand, added to their bottom line and offered a service that was previously not available. On the other hand, classes to accomodate these two groups took over the schools. Why? Because there are a lot more people who want a nice benefit to enrich their kids and out of shape adults than there are people that are really serious about self defense or being really proficient in a martial art.

Collectively, school owners did what any sensible business owner would do: address the market and focus on the programs that will most effectively pay the mortgage.

This is a problem that, quite honestly, we can only blame on ourselves.

With regards to the children especially, the classes were never clearly differentiated from the serious martial arts class. Because of this, mom and dad do expect that their child will earn a black belt.

And we, collectively allowed this. As an industry, we do not have the guts to tell mom and dad that their kid needs to be either an adult or an MA Mozart to get a black belt. We are afraid that they will leave and go to someone who will give their eight year old a BB. And that someone is just down the road and is every bit as fearful of losing business as the first school, and will thus furnish the BB to children.

As an industry, we put the emphasis on the black belt. Mom and dad may not be able to afford five to six years of class. Also, kids (and many adults) often lose interest after about two years, so in order to retain the students for more than a year and to capture every test fee from each customer, time to black belt has pretty much been set at eighteen months to two years.

Really, the only answer is to clearly delineate the childrens' class and fitness classes from the full on martial art class and deemphasize the black belt.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Most of your complaints revolve around kids' standards being "too soft." And then you say that, "in the good old days," everyone banged and they were generally tougher.

Kids weren't. Not really. I've been involved in this stuff for 26 years myself. And we weren't tougher. Kids got bored, frustrated, upset, and so on. That's got exactly sod all to do with martial arts and everything to do with being a kid.

So when you say that people banged, I'm guessing you're referring to the adults, or at least young adults. In which case, I'd say there's no way they're softer now. Say what you will about the advent of MMA. But it seems clear to me that the "light brush" style of sparring you mentioned is more a relic of the 1990s than an indication of today. Today, more people want to gear up and pummel one another. I don't know the last time I heard any noise about a fighter on the point circuit. But MMA guys, you hear about all the time, even at the amateur level. And those guys are working very hard at conditioning and contact sparring. Doesn't seem "soft" to me.

As for children being taken seriously while wearing black belts, I don't see why they (or their parents) should be particularly embarrassed. Frankly, I think it's the people who take that so seriously who ought to be embarrassed. For their absolute inability (or unwillingness) to put things in perspective. I have a black belt. And the day that I feel my achievement is cheapened because some 10-year-old also has one is the day I need to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask myself what I've been up to for the past 26 years. The black belt is a metaphor for a process. The kids' process is different from mine. And that's fine. The accomplishments in that process are different. Doesn't make them easier or more trivial. And it certainly doesn't make those kids less deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts.

Hell, as adults, it seems to me we ought to be less fretful about the black belt. Yet, most of the time, I hear adults wanting to take away or reduce the value of the black belt a kid wears. Not to give the kid a more realistic sense of his abilities, but so as not to demean the value of the belt the adult is wearing. Those priorities seem very confused to me.

We should give children a realistic appraisal of what it means to have their black belts. It's our fault for building it up into some sort of superpower in the first place. We spend years touting this thing as the be all, end all. Then we get all bent out of shape because they want one. It's absurd.

A black belt is a marker. And it's certainly not the last one they'll need. Kids OR adults. But that's the one we all talk about like the second coming, so that's the one everyone fixates on.

I think it's time to get over it. Use it as a reference point. But don't dangle it in front of kids like a tasty treat and then yank it away, proclaiming "you're not old and mature enough to get this."

A kid wearing a black belt is a kid. Bottom line. If that kid thinks he can "take" an adult, he needs an education. But they didn't write the hype. We did.


Stuart

Amen, brother!!

Daniel

 

[Zero]

That ap Owen dude kinda had a good counter-rant there!

 

[JDenver]

Same post from me as everything regarding this generation of kids -

-ENTITLEMENT-

They whine when things seem 'unfair'. They're taught that everyone is always equal in all things. Nothing can be done to challenge them or to ask that they work harder and do better. They take no responsibility for their own actions causing them any problems or how what they do is a barrier to their success. They don't wanna work for anything. They deserve whatever they want. If they want it then they should get it, especially if they're paying money for it.

It applies not just to MA, but every avenue of young adult ambition now of days.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And who's fault is it that today's kids have an entitlement mentality?

It did not just happen.

Today's kids watched mom and dad as they proudly verbally abused every salesman they ever dealt with until they got the price that they "were entitled to."

Today's kids also watched mom and dad go to big box stores to get the better prices that they felt "entitled" to, putting small businesses and domestic manufacture out of business by doing so, but not caring one bit, happilly buying made in China while hypicritically driving to Wal Mart with a "Buy American" bumper sticker on the back of their car.

Today's kids watched as our corporate executives moved the manufacture of American products to China and other countries all to enable themselves to make that bigger bonus that they felt "entitled" to have, while closing down American factories and putting hundreds and sometimes thousands of people out of work.

Today's kids drank in the television ads that adults produced that told them that they were "entitled" to an number of things. They watched as our government produced "entitlement" programs and told the public that they were "entitled" to this, that and the other so that they could obtain votes.

Today's kids watched mom and dad get themselves up to their eyeballs in credit card debt in order to maintain a lifestyle that they could not afford on the money that they made.

Today's kids watched mom and dad make idiot housing purchases, purchases that Fannie May said that they were "entitled" to, getting into more home than they could afford with adjustable rate mortgages and other junk programs the bankers offered all to have a McMansion when they should have purchased a rambler. They also watched our bankers and real estate agents push and promote these idiot purchases. Mom and dad happily bought into it against all common sense, and together, Mom, Dad, the real eastate agents, and the bankers collapsed the economy.

They watched our government officials and corporate leaders demonstrate that they felt "entitled" to give themselves hefty raises and bonuses while the rest of the country struggled with unemployment. They have watched adult lawyers take frivolous lawsuits to absurdity because their clients are "entitled" to that money.

Today's kids have watched our government exercise deficit spending for decades in order to fund their own pet entitlements.

Finally, today's kids get to watch mom and dad whine and cry about how our country is in debt, that they are up to their eyeballs in credit card debt, that they are out of work, and that nothing is made here anymore, completely ignorant of the fact that they facilitated and rubber stamped it all because they were "entitled" to have it. So entitled that they ruined our country in the process.

Todays generation of kids has an entitlement mentality because it is what they were taught to to have. We cannot blame them for paying attention to the lesson. Shame on us for doing so.

Daniel

 

[Omar B]

Wow, I love this topic.

Daniel, great points on the previous page. You've made some valid points about the mindset of someone doing MA for fitness.

Makes me think of my motivation and early years in karate. I started at 5 so it was about hero worship on my part. My Sensei was rough, old school, was in Kyokushin with Nakamura and joined Seido when he left so I guess as rough as it was as a kid I didn't know any different. My parents are old school about discipline and the class was an after-school activity at an Anglican Private School so I guess discipline permeated my whole existence. So maybe kids today don't have type of parents and schooling I and in many cases you guys had growing up in the '80's (or earlier for some).

As for the adults joining just to get fit and learn a few moves. Something I didnt experience myself. Just never had many classes with adults because I was in a Prep school and by the time I had my BB I was 16 and in that specific class at the real dojo. People in BB classes usually by then have a pretty well formed idea of why they are there and why they stayed that long and it's never usually fitness I find, nor is it usually simply fighting. I know I don't do it for fighting.

 

[Xinglu]

I don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.

For that - I blame the instructors that lead them to believe these things and the parents for reenforcing it. It frustrates me because those children that don't get corrected grow up and perpetuate the "hype" as Stuart called it.

 

[pete]

i guess i just don't get it, with all this ranting and raving???

how is it exactly that what a kid does or wears in a children's class have anything to do with how one trains as an adult?

pete

 

[Xinglu]

Why should there be a kids class? I never had one growing up it was just class. I was held to the same expectations as everyone else, if that meant I spent an extended time at a belt level, that's what it meant. I was't the only kid either, there were a lot of them. None of use were deluded into thinking that time = grade, rather were collectively agreed that skill, knowledge, and mindset = grade. Because that is what we were taught. Furthermore, we didn't lose interest because we progressed slowly and at a snails pace compared to adults, but we worked and trained harder.

I see kids today at many schools that treat any rank under BB as "all the same," "meaningless," or otherwise "second-class." I do think that attitude has cheapened their experience and lessons at those levels. Now, those kids learned that from someone, my guess, the instructor. Who in turn learned it from their instructor.

So the root of the problem IMHO is the attitude surrounding it all.

 

[JDenver]

And who's fault is it that today's kids have an entitlement mentality?

It did not just happen.

Today's kids ...............

Daniel

Agreed with all.

I'm pointing out something around entitlement without all of the factors, which I agree with.

Besides, I am a teacher, and young adults DO get it, and DO have to take responsibility for their own actions. It takes time, but you can break them out of entitlement.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I don't think it cheapens anyone's achievement other than the kids. I see it as a way of setting the child up for failure. That is what frustrates me, is seeing the children think it means something it doesn't. That leads to a whole host of related problems.

Why? How have they failed? Giving away a black belt is one thing. But scaling the challenges of a child attaining a black belt is entirely another.

The fact that they couldn't then take out an adult attacker is our failure to provide them with a realistic sense of their abilities. But how does recognizing their dedication, practice, discipline, and stick-to-it-tiveness lead to failure?

At its most basic level, any belt grading system is simply a structured setup of goal setting and reward. Provided we're honest with them about what the goals are and what the rewards mean, I fail to see how giving them recognition results in failure.

For that - I blame the instructors that lead them to believe these things and the parents for reenforcing it. It frustrates me because those children that don't get corrected grow up and perpetuate the "hype" as Stuart called it.

Well, we all reinforce it. This thread reinforces it. We tell them the black belt is the golden apple. And then we turn around and tell them not to want it until they're older. Makes no sense.

If ability is the actual golden apple, then kids should be given a frank and realistic talk about their abilities, appropriately scaled. And we should all stop yammering on about how awesome the black belt is.

I don't mean to sound combative. I just think we spend way too much time mystifying this stuff, fixating on symbols, and obscuring what would be a whole lot more useful if we were just clearer about it.

No offense intended, everyone.


Stuart