The Arts Today: A Comparison, A Rant

[MJS]

I suppose this will be one of those 'hot' topics, one that will be a NHB sort of thread, however, while it no doubt will get hot, feelings will get hurt, keep in mind....a) I intend to keep all of my posts well within the rules, although I can't speak for others, I'm hoping they do the same, b) some tender hearts will get hurt, no doubt. Part of being in the arts, and on a forum, is to have a thick skin. If the words of some on the net offend you, God help you in the real world. That being said....here goes......

I've been in the arts for a bit over 20yrs now. I didn't know much when I started, but I've had the chance to see quite a bit, fastforwarding to present time. I've read books, articles, spoke with various people...all of which has shown the same thing, that the arts have really changed from past to what we see today. Back in the day it was nothing to get banged up, whereas today, the slightest bit of contact, and people cry foul, because their glass child got hurt or hit too hard. Better clear the sidewalks for the campout of lawyers. Back in the day, the focus was on learning, which took time, lots of time, whereas today, if Johnny isn't keeping up with Joey, God forbid, and he doesnt get promoted at the same time, God forbid we have Johnny wait until he's old enough for black belt, instead of giving it to him when he's 7.

Is that what the arts have come to today? A bunch of take my dough dojos, who promote kids who aren't old enough to drive yet? Seems like the mentality is, as long as the kid shows up to class, can compete well, and knows his stuff, who gives a rats *** if he's 7 and a 1st degree, or 12 and a 3rd degree. If thats what it comes down to today, thats sad and very pathetic!

People run around saying, "Well, Master so and so thinks Joey looks good so he is deserving of that 4th degree....even though he's only 12." Well, people must be living with blinders on, because if thats what they think, they're kidding themselves. I mean really, if you were paying GM or Master X, X number of dollars, of course they're going to promote the kid. They're getting paid, do you really think they give a **** about Joey?

Thank God there are still schools around today, to counter the McDojos that are so rampant today. Schools that put quality over quantity and dont cater to the Jones', who think it's all about them, and who feel that their 8yo should be a 2nd degree.

Its sad, and its a joke. And frankly, I'd be ashamed to admit that my kid is that young and has that rank.

Enough ranting from me for now.. ....I'm sure there're others who will agree and those that disagree. I just wonder, how people can sleep at night, knowing that their kid is a laughing stock amongst other martial artists...those who bust their *** on the mat, those who have put in the blood, sweat and tears into training, those who dont run and cry when they get hit.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I can understand your complaints. To some extent, they are twin copies of the complaints people have about public schools today.

Fortunately, there are cures for both - go private. In a very practical sense, if McDojos promote Johnny to BB in 12 months at age 12, so what? In what way are you harmed? You could call him a rainbow belt and it would mean the same thing.

As to the training hard and getting injured part...

I train hard, I get injured. Life goes on. However, I'm not willing to endure broken jawbones, needing stitches every other week, etc. I'm not training in martial arts to be tough, rough, and downright badass. I have a job, I have to go to work every day. Taking time off work to go get stitches or have bones set - not a good thing. If it should happen from time to time, oh well. If it is a regular thing or if it's considered cool to beat on each other to that point as a regular event, then no thanks. I'm not training for the MMA.

 

[MJS]

I can understand your complaints. To some extent, they are twin copies of the complaints people have about public schools today.

Fortunately, there are cures for both - go private. In a very practical sense, if McDojos promote Johnny to BB in 12 months at age 12, so what? In what way are you harmed? You could call him a rainbow belt and it would mean the same thing.

How will the 'harder' schools be hurt? By harder, I mean any school other than the McDojos, the ones with contact, dont promote 7yr olds to 3rd degree black...well, those people could lose students. If its not understood from day 1, what is expected, then those people will leave and go to the easy school. Of course, if its understood, then the harder school has nothing to worry about. But again, people need to understand that.

As to the training hard and getting injured part...

I train hard, I get injured. Life goes on. However, I'm not willing to endure broken jawbones, needing stitches every other week, etc. I'm not training in martial arts to be tough, rough, and downright badass. I have a job, I have to go to work every day. Taking time off work to go get stitches or have bones set - not a good thing. If it should happen from time to time, oh well. If it is a regular thing or if it's considered cool to beat on each other to that point as a regular event, then no thanks. I'm not training for the MMA.

Likewise Bill, I too have a job, that I can't afford to not show up at, all because of an injury. No, I'm not talking about a workout so hard that the students are being taken out by ambulance. But I'm talking about getting hit and being able to take it. If people can't take a hit in the dojo, how are they going to survive in the real world? If I'm doing self defense in class, I should be able to grab someone by the lapel, hard, and move them, just like it would happen in the real world, and not have them cry that I'm going too hard. I should be able to throw a punch and if they miss and get hit, not cry.

If you get hit in sparring and it takes the wind from you or you get knocked down, dont be a baby about it...get back up and fight. Thats what I'm talking about.

 

[Omar B]

I hear ya man. Though from the standpoint of a dojo owner, you gotta have kids to make more money, kids want validation so they need a promotion every month, they wanna spar so they have these huge pads. So you end up with young kids with inflated belt levels who have never taken or given a real punch, and would likely have their parents sue if it did happen.

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

 

[MJS]

I hear ya man. Though from the standpoint of a dojo owner, you gotta have kids to make more money, kids want validation so they need a promotion every month, they wanna spar so they have these huge pads. So you end up with young kids with inflated belt levels who have never taken or given a real punch, and would likely have their parents sue if it did happen.

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

Good points, but of course, thats why, there're 2 types of school owners. One has a school thats his bread and butter, while the other has another FT job. Now, this isn't to say that the guy with the FT job who runs the school on the side, isnt going to want to make money, but there is a difference, and if I were to run a school, I'd enroll kids that were at least 10. I've taught for many years, and more times than not, the younger ones just do not have what it takes. So that brings up the question...if they have the attention span of a fly, how can those same kids be promoted to 3rd degree if they're 10 or 12? So they screwed off when they were little, but suddenly did a 180 and now they're worthy of high rank?

Validation...while I do see your point, its those same parents and kids who see the belt for more than it is, and they assume their kid is worthy of it, but what happens when the kid gets his *** kicked? "But Joey was a BB. Why did this happen???" Not saying that the arts make you invincible, but I'd rather get more satisfaction having the kid learn quality material that he can do, and make work under pressure, rather than giving him a pacifier (a belt) every month, when he really isn't worthy of it.

Now, some will say that their kid is and maybe they are worthy of it. But, IMO, the odds of a 12yo 3rd degree, having the same understanding of things as an adult, is few and far between. I've taught people kata and techs. Told them to practice on their own for 10 min. and I'd be back. I'd come back, they'd say they had it, so I'd ask to see it. Know what happened? More times than not, I was able to find things wrong with the kata, and when that punch was really coming at them, they fell apart. So yes, on the surface they do 'have it' but deep down, no they did not.

 

[MJS]

Maybe teens/adults should be taught separately and the kids have a different belt system. I know I slogged it out from 12 to 16 as a brown belt and it didn't bother me one bit. But then I knew realistically that I could not perform at a black belt's level so I could not have it. Whereas today spoiled kids (or is it spoiled parents) need to see it.

I didn't comment on this in the other post, so I'd like to do so now. My old school had 10 techs and 2 kata per belt. Younger kids, the 4, 5, 6 yr olds, did half the material, so 5 techs, 1 kata. Once they reached BB level, they were given a Jr. BB, and then went back to learn the other material. I'd rather see a JR. BB used, and promote the kid to full BB when they're 16 or 17, instead of a 12yo 3rd degree. So, by the time the kid was old enough, they were ready to test for adult BB, knew all the material and still felt like they were accomplishing something.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How will the 'harder' schools be hurt? By harder, I mean any school other than the McDojos, the ones with contact, dont promote 7yr olds to 3rd degree black...well, those people could lose students. If its not understood from day 1, what is expected, then those people will leave and go to the easy school. Of course, if its understood, then the harder school has nothing to worry about. But again, people need to understand that.

Would the parents of those kids who choose a McDojo choose your dojo if they had no other choice? I suspect that not all of them would - perhaps not even many of them.

Many people clearly view MA as a form of babysitting for the kids, and a set of awards and trophies for them to use in showing off to the neighbors what great kids they have. Their values are not the same as yours, which is why they choose the McDojo. If the McDojo's suddenly vanished, I don't suspect that the parents would change their values suddenly.

Likewise Bill, I too have a job, that I can't afford to not show up at, all because of an injury. No, I'm not talking about a workout so hard that the students are being taken out by ambulance. But I'm talking about getting hit and being able to take it. If people can't take a hit in the dojo, how are they going to survive in the real world? If I'm doing self defense in class, I should be able to grab someone by the lapel, hard, and move them, just like it would happen in the real world, and not have them cry that I'm going too hard. I should be able to throw a punch and if they miss and get hit, not cry.

Got it. Well, I've been hit hard enough to drop me, and I didn't cry, but I did say 'ow' and a bunch of not nice words (to myself). And I hurt my knee badly enough at one point that I could not train for awhile. So I didn't.

If you get hit in sparring and it takes the wind from you or you get knocked down, dont be a baby about it...get back up and fight. Thats what I'm talking about.

I'm with you on that. But getting back to kids in McDojos and parents of those kids - they don't want that. So they don't go for it. I don't see that changing.

 

[suicide]

theres nothing you can do or anybody can do about it , its just gonna make ma look bad when a 12 year old girl beats up a 12 year old boy thats a 2nd degree black belt on the playground :knight2:but it happens all the time and its been happening - question for you MJS what age were you when you started in the MA ? theres alot of reasons why a kid becomes a 3rd degree chicken mcnugget at the age of 13 but at some point that kids mentality will strenghten and he will realize that he has to step his game up , especially if hes going to tournys. with other kids that do do this MA for all the right reasons - if not that kid will be into something else by the time he reaches grand master chicken mcnugget status at the age of 16 , who knows maybe there parents just want some cool pics of the kids in gi´s to hang up in there living rooms ...

 

[MJS]

theres nothing you can do or anybody can do about it , its just gonna make ma look bad when a 12 year old girl beats up a 12 year old boy thats a 2nd degree black belt on the playground :knight2:but it happens all the time and its been happening -

Wasn't looking for a solution to the problem, as I know that would be next to impossible. Like I said in the title of the thread, a rant.

question for you MJS what age were you when you started in the MA ? theres alot of reasons why a kid becomes a 3rd degree chicken mcnugget at the age of 13 but at some point that kids mentality will strenghten and he will realize that he has to step his game up , especially if hes going to tournys. with other kids that do do this MA for all the right reasons - if not that kid will be into something else by the time he reaches grand master chicken mcnugget status at the age of 16 , who knows maybe there parents just want some cool pics of the kids in gi´s to hang up in there living rooms ...

I was 12 and got my 1st degree black when I was 16. I've been training in Kenpo for 23 yrs. now. I'm just a 3rd degree. I'm a first degree in Arnis. Frankly, I really dont give a crap about rank or promotions. My goal is to train and learn, nothing more, nothing less. When my teachers are ready to promote me, they will. I do not ask, now will I ever ask when I'll be promoted to another rank.

Oh and in case you're wondering why so many years in Kenpo and just a 3rd degree....no particular reason. I did transition between Kenpo schools, which also required me to learn their material. As I said, rank isn't important to me, because when the poop hits the fan, its my skill that'll make or break it for me, not the belt with the stripes.

 

[MJS]

Would the parents of those kids who choose a McDojo choose your dojo if they had no other choice? I suspect that not all of them would - perhaps not even many of them.

I do not own a school. I train and teach when I can. If someone were to walk thru the doors and inquire about the training, I'd tell them what I could and refer them to the head inst. I can't control who comes to the school and who leaves the school. I can tell them how the training is done and whats expected. Its really up to them. Do they want to spend their money on quality instruction or spend it at a place that doesn't give a crap about the quality, as long as they promise a BB in 2 yrs.

Many people clearly view MA as a form of babysitting for the kids, and a set of awards and trophies for them to use in showing off to the neighbors what great kids they have. Their values are not the same as yours, which is why they choose the McDojo. If the McDojo's suddenly vanished, I don't suspect that the parents would change their values suddenly.

Thats the way I viewed the 4yo classes when I taught, as babysitting. Some parents actually stayed, asked questions and were and active part of their childs learning. Others...I usually only saw them in passing, as they'd drop the kid off, and wait outside when it was time to pick them up. Sometimes when I had to tell the parent something, I'd have to have the child go out and tell the parent to come in, which was like pulling teeth. God forbid they support their child. And keep in mind...it was those same parents that were the first to complain when their kid wasn't moving up.

Got it. Well, I've been hit hard enough to drop me, and I didn't cry, but I did say 'ow' and a bunch of not nice words (to myself). And I hurt my knee badly enough at one point that I could not train for awhile. So I didn't.

I injured my knee, due to someone else, and I was out of training for quite some time. It sucked, and I was walking like I was 90. LOL. I've had the wind knocked out of me, been hit where I thought I was going out, bumps, bruises and hit in the nose more times than I'd like to remember. Fortunately never a break though.

I'm with you on that. But getting back to kids in McDojos and parents of those kids - they don't want that. So they don't go for it. I don't see that changing.

They just want what I said in another post....a BB for their kid in 2yrs. Somehow the BB has this magical power. Guess I missed that in my training. LOL. Seriously though...I dont see anything changing either, sad as it may be, and I'm not looking for a solution, as there probably is none.

 

[Omar B]

This is one of the reasons I love my Hanshi so much. He's got a full time job, he's got rid of the dojo around a year after I got BB (one of my reasons for moving from Seido to Kyokushin for a few years) and we lost touch to focus on his profession. Now we are great friends and he teaches at his house who he wants, not for money, but for the art. His only students are his 2 children (who were instructors already when I was learning) and his wife.

Karate for the love of the art, not for financial gain, that's what it's all about. Backyard and garage dojos where the training's tough and you don't have to answer to anyone. That's the answer, leave the McDojos to the ones who want to teach children and deal with the parents and their BS, do it like Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker did back in the day, small private training groups.

 

[MJS]

This is one of the reasons I love my Hanshi so much. He's got a full time job, he's got rid of the dojo around a year after I got BB and we lost touch to focus on his profession. Now we are great friends and he teaches at his house who he wants, not for money, but for the art. His only students are his 2 children (who were instructors already when I was learning) and his wife.

Karate for the love of the art, not for financial gain, that's what it's all about. Backyard and garage dojos where the training's tough and you don't have to answer to anyone. That's the answer, leave the McDojos to the ones who want to teach children and deal with the parents and their BS, do it like Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Bruce Lee, Ed Parker did back in the day, small private training groups.

What a great post! I couldn't agree more! I too, have had some awesome workouts that were conducted in a garage or backyard. A handful of people, who aren't there for rank or title, belts or any BS. Just some good ol' hard training. Nobody ran away to seek out a lawyer if there was an injury.

As for the 2nd part of your post...agreed again. I teach and train because I love it.

 

[Nolerama]

I see this concern come up a lot. Especially Omar's point of kids needing validation, so the dojo owner gives them belts.

Are there any MA schools out there that are more sportive and rate the kids on performance? I mean, if I had kids, that's where I'd send them.

It's like any school (from a St. Louis perspective- city teachers, please pardon me)... You can send the kids to a public school, and they can get an "education" meaning they went through the motions... Or you can send them to private school, and they get a better one by having more competition among their ranks and better instruction (generally speaking).

Ultimately, it's the consumer's right to choose. If a parent wants their kid to add BB trophies on their wall, then it's their choice. If parents want their kid to properly learn an art, then that particular child will become better educated than his McDojo peers, over the same amount of time, but with less accolade.

 

[Jenna]

These are just my thoughts directed at nobody! And I would split my viewpoint in two directions..

On the one hand I think that the arts as I behold them today are soft; perhaps feminised. I think when I began, the arts were male and adult -centric and so I think there were certain prerequisites of "toughness" if you will, and also certain expectations of practitioners regardless of their sex, age or physical condition [do not whinge bout it unless you are busted bad or falling down in agony]. And so now the arts are more open to everyone and maybe those same standards are no longer applicable [or certainly no longer applied].

I do not know if that is better or worse?? I think as a female in and around boxing since childhood and MA from the 1990s, having to fit myself into this predominantly adult male arena is an exercise in confidence and perhaps physical toughness still, that is not I think what women today seek nor parents of younger children, nor many of the younger guys unaccustomed to physical effort and stress. And so the arts surely move with the new demands? Else there will be nobody to do carry any legacy of any kind??

And but on the other hand, none of this irritates me so much as some of you guys I think because how I do my art is how I do it, irrespective of what the general state of MA affars, or the consensus among the MA community might be. Further, my rank is a mere token and is in actual fact, quite irrelevant should I ever be called upon again to use the knowledge therein. Also, I would not compare myself to a child of same grade and because that is a child, and children have children's grades corresponding to their physical abilities [as separate from those of adults] yes? There is not a comparison to be made.

Yes I think our culture is very goals-oriented and this has of course trickled through into MA, particularly I think when organisations are of a commercial nature and have accounts to reckon. Yet surely no matter how we might rue the loss of quality or of the old standards, none of that prevents any of us from practicing our arts as we wish?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Omar B]

I wouldnt call it feminization. I think it started with Jhoon Rhee introducing all the saftey gear making every kid able to copy their heroes Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, etc. Kids want to be like their idols (heck, I stared karate because of Batman so I'm non to talk). Problem comes when kids want to learn how to fly through the air and spin like a top, just like the Power Rangers, rather than spending 6 months to a year at white belt learning how to stand properly.

I get so jealous reading old black belt magazines (since they are all up on Google books) about those full contact days when Chuck had his team, Parker had his team and MA had such a high standard. Hard to find a good, private group though, heck for a while a local TKD instructor and I worked out every morning at the local park.

 

[MJS]

I see this concern come up a lot. Especially Omar's point of kids needing validation, so the dojo owner gives them belts.

I wonder though..do those same parents expect their child to actually be capable of defending themselves? As I've said, the ma's dont make you Superman, but one would think that if you've trained hard, hard being the key word, that you'd stand a better chance, the odds would be more in your favor, so to speak. Imagine the look on the parents face, when Johnny gets his *** kicked in the school yard, and they run to the inst. at the McDojo, demanding a refund, because he should have been teaching them skills that worked. IMO, I think there would be satisfaction just knowing that you're getting something for your hard work, not something thats just handed to you. Thats the problem...so many are used to being spoon fed, they know no other way.

Enrolling in the McDojo: $90/month
Enrolling in the "Masters Program" which is a sure shot 2yr BB program: $1200
Seeing the look on the parents face when Johnny gets his *** kicked: Priceless!

Are there any MA schools out there that are more sportive and rate the kids on performance? I mean, if I had kids, that's where I'd send them.

Sure, there're lots of them.

It's like any school (from a St. Louis perspective- city teachers, please pardon me)... You can send the kids to a public school, and they can get an "education" meaning they went through the motions... Or you can send them to private school, and they get a better one by having more competition among their ranks and better instruction (generally speaking).

Ultimately, it's the consumer's right to choose. If a parent wants their kid to add BB trophies on their wall, then it's their choice. If parents want their kid to properly learn an art, then that particular child will become better educated than his McDojo peers, over the same amount of time, but with less accolade.

Hopefully, there will always be parents that are smart enough to see thru the McDojo, fries and a coke with the black belt program, and go to schools that put quality over quantity.

 

[Jaspthecat]

MJS:

You have re-affirmed for me why I no longer bother going for rank and belts.

Far as I'm concerned they don't mean s**t if they are being given out for the wrong reasons.

I gauge ability on whether you can whoop me in the ring not on the arbitary colour of your belt / sash.

With respect to contact and injury, I feel sorry for you guys in the US, it seems far more litigatious over there than here in the UK. Problem is, I see the UK going the same way. I think it should be made clear to students (and parents) that MA can be a contact sport and there may be bumps and grazes on the way. If you do get injured (despite it being a controlled environment) then just suck it up and quit your crying.

 

[Xinglu]

At the dojo I trained at growing up, if you were under 18 - no BB. It didn't matter how good you were, there needed to be a certain level of emotional maturity to go along with it, so 18 was the min. age at which a BB could be earned. They are, to the best of my knowledge, still upholding that standard. There, a BB still means something.

That was my upbringing in MA, and I'm right there with you beating my head into the wall when children are promoted to BB. Bottom line, a BB should be able to control and dominate the fight of any lesser rank regardless of age. I've yet to meet a 12 y/o who can dominate and control even an adult yellow belt.

 

[Omar B]

I remember the first time I saw a child black belt, I was at a tournament and it was the first time I saw karate outside my own dojo. All the different uniforms and colors was a bit overwhelming, but seeing a kid who I was without a doubt older than wearing a BB shocked the crap out of me. Up on till that point I didn't know it was possible because it just didn't work that way where I came from.

Huge capitalist I am I still believe karate (as well as most MA) are better served outside of a money making structure. Get together with a couple senior students from your school (even the brown belts) and from other schools too, figure out who's got a private back yard with a good fence and soft grass, and start getting deep into what the art is about. You can't fully get into your meditation zone and work out with a 1 hour class. Nor can you get assigned those crazy tasks like when my Hanshi says "1000 or every kick on both sides." Know how long it takes to do 1000 front snap kicks with perfect form? Then the roundhouses, side kick, hook kick, crescent kick, back kick, etc, then change sides? The money based 1 or 2 hour structure of class in the modern dojo severely hampers the art in itself.

 

[artFling]

I think I want both. I want to train hard. I expect to get hurt from time to time and I have.

But I also want one day to tie a black belt around my waist (purple now). I do not know if I'll make it because at the age of 46 I have rapidly progressing arthritis. I'm working with a skilled karate instructor who works with me. He helps me modify where I need. Still one day, I want to have a legitimate black belt. And that means something to me. If my physical condition keeps me from it, I'll be very disappointed. Very. But I won't tie it on, unless I have the requisite skills. Because it means something to me. I want to know that in my instructor's eyes at the very least, I earned and legitimately hold the rank of BB.