The Arts i plan on mastering / What is Mastering really mean?

[fissure]

How the hell did this thread end up talking about TKD anyway?

 

[J-kid]

You make a few good points, Yet are thinking is very diffrent. It seems alot of what you are saying is closed minded and your deafeting yourself befor you start. You know there are some good sayings you should take into good consideration, Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small. But if you never try and never open up your mind You wont get anywhere. Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form. I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything. And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.


To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

Uhhh No. that’s not it at all.
In fact that is not even how a well trained martial artist behaves, especially one that is on the way to “mastering” anything.

Judo-Kid,

I think you should go to where Yiliquan1 trains and ask him to show you what he is talking about........feeling is believing

 

[white belt]

The arts I want to master.

By white belt

1) Brickin'(c)
2) Kimchi Gong
3) Magnet Qi Gong
4) Whatever Dillman is drinking.
4) Finding TKD discussions when they try to avoid me.
5) Growing my hair back.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
You make a few good points, Yet are thinking is very diffrent. It seems alot of what you are saying is closed minded and your deafeting yourself befor you start. You know there are some good sayings you should take into good consideration, Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small. But if you never try and never open up your mind You wont get anywhere. Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form. I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything. And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.


To Yiliquan1

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible. Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves, Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

I find it funny that you point things out but never back them up.

What art did I not approve of? Again, you are making yourself look like a fool by trying to discredit others, especially when you can't back them up.

If at all, the only thing I disapproved was commercialized MA for combat which can includes every art, and the idea of complete mastery.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Also Mastery dosnt have to be the dictionary form.

What? The language we are all speaking is comprised of words, whose proper use and definition are collected in dictionaries... The dictionary form usage is the proper usage of any word - trying to argue against that makes little sense.

I believe mastery comes from within your self, The power of not giving up and i am not talking about chi or anything.

This is the kind of mastery that many folks on here thusfar have implied comes with lifelong martial arts training, and is unattainable by chasing after "mastery" in multiple arts (since it is unlikely that even in one lifetime it would be reached in one art). Developing a will to win doesn't necessarily indicate "mastery," only a strong, indomitable spirit.

Some points on the "philosophical" mastery -

*If you think you are a master, you aren't.
*Mastery isn't what you think it is.
*The real master doesn't proclaim himself as such; likely, he would deny such a possibility even exists.
*A master exists to serve others, to help others along the path. Any deeds done out of self-interest void the perception of mastery.

And yes you can win a wrestling state after one year. with enough skill and training you can. Like i said some people learn faster then others and can pick up skills at a unbelievable rate.

Sure. Anything is possible. But are they wrestling "masters?" Far from it. They would still have much to learn, and ultimately a competitive win does not mean that they are unbeatable nor invincible - just that on that day, against that opponent, they triumphed. Tomorrow is another day.

Interesting quote:

"Today is victory over the self. Tomorrow is a victory over lesser men."

Think on that.

You make a good point, on kids not being able to master a art. To most extrems you are correct, But once you get into your teens it may be possible.

Again, every person is an individual. We have all been discussing broad, brush stroke generalities. But those individuals capable of such amazing feats are few and far between, which is why there are so few Olympic champions, but there are droves and droves of Olympic hopefuls. Big difference between those who hope and those who can...

Also you talk about chi- What i believe you call Chi is just you moving your muscles with brain inpulses that are sent to nerves,

No. That is the basic definition of all motion. Your brain sends a neural impulse to the muscles to move, and they do.

Sometimes like when your really mad and want someone to get out of your way your able to shove right threw them because your mad and able to use your feelings to turn into strenghts or a higher level due to higher stimulie. I think this is what you refur to as chi perhaps.

Again, no. In order to make use of qi, it is important that the mind not be clouded with strong emotions such as anger or fear... That doesn't mean they aren't present, simply controlled thanks to longterm training. What you are talking about is an adrenaline fueled short term pump brought about by extreme emotional distress. Big difference.

Again, you are invited to come out to where we train and see for yourself. Hell, I'll come pick you up if need be...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Like if you never try you will never win. Now if you never give anything a shot and you always say thats to hard befor you start, You lose, At least if you try and fail you have a chance no matter how small.

Have you been out in the real world?


Many people tried as hard as they could to get a million dollars from working 12 hours a day and studying day and night but they still can't reach it.


If you weren't born with natural ability to be fast and running, then you will never make it past high school track.


For smaller goals, yes, you can do them if you try. An example would be, "I want to be able to sense pressure on the mat so I don't get pinned" or "I want to improve my awareness to improve my blocking, counter-offensive, etc."


You know how many people wanted to be president? No matter how hard they tried, and how much money they spent, they did not become president.


You need to step out in the real world. Things don't always go your way, no matter how hard you try. You can always reach goals on self-improvement like "I want to be faster" but that won't make you fast.

Goals like "I want to make reigonals" is a realistic goal while still aiming high. However, "I want to be an Olympic sprinter and shatter the record" is impossible unless you were born with great genetics.


What you are saying is like knowing perfect grammar, knowing all the rules of the language, knowing the definition of every word, knowing all literary works of the language, able to cite all literary devices in every work of literature, etc. Is that even possible for one language? No, no matter how hard you try, it is not possible. People try all the time, but we do not have the capability nor the time to master even one language.

What you're saying is you want to master English, Spanish, French, Mandarin, Arabic, Greek, Latin, Portugese, Sanskrit, and German.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Zen Priest asks himself a question:

Master, are you there?

Same Zen Priest answers himself:

Yes, I am here.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What? The language we are all speaking is comprised of words, whose proper use and definition are collected in dictionaries... The dictionary form usage is the proper usage of any word - trying to argue against that makes little sense.



This is the kind of mastery that many folks on here thusfar have implied comes with lifelong martial arts training, and is unattainable by chasing after "mastery" in multiple arts (since it is unlikely that even in one lifetime it would be reached in one art). Developing a will to win doesn't necessarily indicate "mastery," only a strong, indomitable spirit.

Some points on the "philosophical" mastery -

*If you think you are a master, you aren't.
*Mastery isn't what you think it is.
*The real master doesn't proclaim himself as such; likely, he would deny such a possibility even exists.
*A master exists to serve others, to help others along the path. Any deeds done out of self-interest void the perception of mastery.



Sure. Anything is possible. But are they wrestling "masters?" Far from it. They would still have much to learn, and ultimately a competitive win does not mean that they are unbeatable nor invincible - just that on that day, against that opponent, they triumphed. Tomorrow is another day.

Interesting quote:

"Today is victory over the self. Tomorrow is a victory over lesser men."

Think on that.



Again, every person is an individual. We have all been discussing broad, brush stroke generalities. But those individuals capable of such amazing feats are few and far between, which is why there are so few Olympic champions, but there are droves and droves of Olympic hopefuls. Big difference between those who hope and those who can...



No. That is the basic definition of all motion. Your brain sends a neural impulse to the muscles to move, and they do.



Again, no. In order to make use of qi, it is important that the mind not be clouded with strong emotions such as anger or fear... That doesn't mean they aren't present, simply controlled thanks to longterm training. What you are talking about is an adrenaline fueled short term pump brought about by extreme emotional distress. Big difference.

Again, you are invited to come out to where we train and see for yourself. Hell, I'll come pick you up if need be...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

You also bring up a good point...

Most Olympic athletes may win the gold medal one day, while not even being ranked in the next major competition a few months later.

In wrestling, it happens all the time. I've seen guys who are on the national level and get pinned by a mystery person.

Next tournament, once the mystery man is known for pinning the national guy, the national guy whoops on him.

Even look at Greene, he has his bad days at sprinting.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Zen Priest asks himself a question:

Master, are you there?

Same Zen Priest answers himself:

Yes, I am here.

A dozen bottles of cheap beer can bring you to Zen then.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Kirk
Is it the same stuff as found here?

http://www.mitsuboshi-web.com/english/shorinji/index.html

Sorry counldn't answer before (different time zone).

Nope, nothing like it. But I think this could be interessting for them.

If I remember correctly they use a combination of a Kendo helmet, and a TDK "armor". The stick is hard PVC with fome around it. But knifeman.dk would know better.

/Yari

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Musashi was full of it eh? [easy for you to say].

You know the problem many people have in the martial arts is that they think training has something to do with being better than someone else[thus being able to win a fight/trophy etc].
No matter how long they train their understanding never changes and so their mind stays the same as a bigginers, ignorant.

To think that one day you will 'master' an art [or a number of them], is to limit yourself to a fixed end of training, You reach the end the day you think you've mastered everything.

[I laugh every time I hear people say;"We took the best techniques from several styles and created are new devistating fighting form."]

If you just want to be a good fighter, why bother learning an 'art' ? just go out and fight, you'll soon get to know if you're any good at it or not?

After almost 30 years of training in karatedo, I can say with all humility that I am a better person than I was as a teenager.
Older [yes] wiser[maybe?] better able to deal with the way I handle problems [absolutely].

My students think I'm quite masterfull when I teach them, but my teachers in Okinawa think I've still got a long way to go to master anything!

Dosen't everyone know it's the journey, not the arrival, that's the important thing in all this?

Mike.

Amen. Great post! Kind of ironic that K² responded by calling you a karate master.

I think that there have been a LOT of good points brought up throughout the entirity of the thread. Ryushikan sticks out in particular (obviously Mike Clarke above as well, though he didn't participate as vigorously). Sorry if I didn't mention anyone who I thought brought up a good point, but I'm tired! The thread, however, is definitely a good read despite some of the unnecessary bickering.

Too many people, regardless of the subject (be it MA, career, etc etc), focus solely on the end result or the final goal when looking towards the future. In my admittedly inexperienced opinion, the means is FAR more important than the end, because what you put into the means wholly determines what you get out of it. However, it seems that the means as somewhat ignored, especially by young people, because few are patient enough to wait for the end goal, let alone work hard for it the entire time. It can get quite exhaustive and tedious, both mentally and physically (hopefully), knowing that what you won't get what you're working for a long time in the future. I can't say that I'm not guilty of it myself, being that I'm young too, however I feel overwhelmed enough by what I'm studying at the moment such that I can't imagine how many lifetimes "mastery" would require. I like that. Sure, it sounds great to be 9th dan in 14 styles and 12th dan in your own personal 40-word long fighting system, but I think it's great to be a black belt, and learning. All I want to do is be both learning and proficient in what I'm learning, and I can see that that's a LONG road that I'm travelling, and I wouldn't have it any other way. However, the only thing I can do is take it step by step, doing my damndest to be the best I can FOR ME at what I do at the moment. No, I'll never be a "master" or will I ever be 10th dan, but I couldn't care less. There's so incredibly much in a single art that I could spend a lifetime refining each technique attempting to get closer and closer to "perfection", if such a thing exists (in reality, it doesn't). If I'm proficient in my art, progressively learning and becoming better (even if it's finding small things in the same motions, its still learning), then I'm great. And I know I'm not alone in this, but too many are focused on being the renaissance men of martial arts, and I don't think it's necessary. Why have a basic, superficial understanding of 15 techniques from 150 arts when I can have an in depth, more whole understanding of 20 from 1? Sounds good to me. Just my inexperienced opinion.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Youth,as they say, is often wasted on the young. But then this is nature I guess?

I heard once that the trade off for youth, strength, beauty and agility was wisdom.

As I age (I have only just begun upon that path), I find that the trade off is by far in favor of the old(er)...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

To martial artist,

I dont feel like brawling with you on-line today, What i post is my oppenion added with facts.

Alot of your stuff is the same way, You can nether prove it nor disprove it.

You allso dont have to space every sentance apart






This far.











Dosnt make you look any smarter.








Now you say have you been in the real world. Yes and i know people fail at gaining a million Dollars $$ but some people do it, They try and try and try and guess what people do make a million dollars. If you were not so pessimistic you might be able to see what i am talking about.

 

[Matt Stone]

So, Judo-kid...

You want to come out to see what Yiliquan and qi are all about?

We have training every Saturday at around 0900. We finish up around 1230. Training is outdoors, so dress warmly...

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Angus
Amen. Great post! Kind of ironic that K² responded by calling you a karate master.

There is nothing ironic in that. To each his own. Your truth is not my truth; my way is not your way. Just b/c someone does not see the world the same way as I do, does not mean I do not respect him/her. Mr Clark pursues his art in his own way and he has devoted his life to that end. He has found his enlightenment and fulfilment in the process. I have nothing but respect and admiration for men and women with such commitment and dedication, eventhough I do not necessary agree with everything they say. Besides, Mr Clark is 6th dan. He is at the master level.

I myself have no such aspiration. I take the practical view that MA is a skill set, a tool to achieve an end, which is to prevail in combat. I do not wish to engage in combat and would rather live a peaceful life.

I fail to see why some people think they are holier than thou as if their way is the only way, which is arrogance in disguise.

There is a big world outside your limited confine of this technique vs that technique. Just b/c you may want to take MA as the end in in itself, does not mean everyone else must see it that way. I don't disrespect people who devote themselves to MA. But I also don't care much for disrespect thrown my way neither.

Judo kid is 16 and his view reflects that of a typical 16. I don't hold that against him as he will learn and grow in time. Please do not pigeonhole everyone else who does not see the world the same way into one simple category of young bull. For all you know, you may be talking to someone 10 years your senior.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

Kenneth, in my article I was expressing the view that many groups today pass people out as dan grades that don't have a good understanding of their system, they are simply victims of someones need to make a living from karate.

As for classical karate training not being good for self defence?
Again my point was addressing the way karate is taught in many places these days. Hoshin, purpose, this is key to understanding the art you're involved in. We have many people today who don't understand this and seem to think that training in karate is a 'one size fits all' answer to everything from character building to fighting off a thug in a dark ally.

My point was, if you want karate to work in a real fight, this has to be part of your purpose for going to the dojo and so you need to train with this in mind. If you're not bothered about such things, then you should be focussed on other aspects of the art.
But thinking one way and training another will leave you with very little in either camp.

Thanks for the clarification. There is no disagreement here.

 

[J-kid]

Again i am sick of people using my age against me , LAMO. Kennethuku you say hes just a 16 year old Har Har Har. Great way to prove your point sounds kind of dump coming from someone older who should be able to come up with somthing better then he is 16. When will people learn age isnt a great agument we are all diffrent i am not like any other 16 year old we are all very diffrent i can tell you that with all out honesty. Your Old and Confused retire. Lol see what i mean sounds lamo when someone trys to make a age comparesent to the way you talk or right.

 

[J-kid]

Lol i ment write at the end of that last paragraph.

I might go see your school some time for the fun of it (just dont come running at me with a kendo stick or anything LOL.)

 

[KennethKu]

Look kid, it is one thing to say "I want to grow up to be the president of the United States " and another to actually become one. I have not pounded on you like every one else. Give it a rest. You are not convincing anyone here. What you are mouthing off is simply ridiculous. Everybody but you, knows it. Stop making a fool of yourself by keep pressing it.