The Arts i plan on mastering / What is Mastering really mean?

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Well i believe you can become a master By mastering teaching ablity , all the skills , the technics and the grace of the art. I dont believe in ******** chi maybe you do thats fine. I am christen and that would be against my relegion. But for anyone else who wants to believe in it thats fine and i wish you the best of luck shooting fire balls or what not. I believe it takes a good time to master the arts but it can be done and i will do it. Best of luck to you all Judo-kid.

I am a Christian also, but what is your point?

What he basically meant by healing was the ability to do an opposite action to your action. The idea of a reaction to every action is found in the Bible, what is your point? You seem to misunderstand chi along with other things.

 

[MartialArtist]

Actually, TKD, the generic name, incorporated archery especially and it was originally meant to be a combat art and now, it's more of a hand-to-hand combat art.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I know this is definitely gonna make me the most unpopular person here, for saying this. Musashi was full of it. People who made those claims about taking long long time to learn a martial art were/are mostly interested in keeping newcomers at bay.

Since I will be needing fire support, I am taking the pre-emptive strike of bringing out this site.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/index.html

Knock yourselves out. It is unlike any martial art site you have seen.

That site is trash, the webmaster is trash. I talked to him online and his sources for information is so inaccurate (he even argued that Bo Jackson was 6'4" and grew three inches from the transition between major league sports) it's not even funny. His lack of knowledge in the arts, film, or anything for that matter.

His site is listed as a mcdojo at McDojo.com

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by MartialArtist That site is trash, the webmaster is trash. I talked to him online and his sources for information is so inaccurate (he even argued that Bo Jackson was 6'4" and grew three inches from the transition between major league sports) it's not even funny. His lack of knowledge in the arts, film, or anything for that matter.

His site is listed as a mcdojo at McDojo.com

I have zero interest in Shotokan, Zero qualification in Shotokan and my view in that area would not worth a piss on. So I have no idea of his expertise in Shotokan.

However, everything else he talks about on his site, makes perfect sense. It rubs many people the wrong way. But he isn't wrong. If anything, he is right on the money regarding the politics and human frailty involved in dojo politics and practices. I don't see how you can disagree with that.

Any one who reads the site can judge for himself/herself.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
Musashi was full of it eh? [easy for you to say].

You know the problem many people have in the martial arts is that they think training has something to do with being better than someone else[thus being able to win a fight/trophy etc].
No matter how long they train their understanding never changes and so their mind stays the same as a bigginers, ignorant.

To think that one day you will 'master' an art [or a number of them], is to limit yourself to a fixed end of training, You reach the end the day you think you've mastered everything.

[I laugh every time I hear people say;"We took the best techniques from several styles and created are new devistating fighting form."]

If you just want to be a good fighter, why bother learning an 'art' ? just go out and fight, you'll soon get to know if you're any good at it or not?

After almost 30 years of training in karatedo, I can say with all humility that I am a better person than I was as a teenager.
Older [yes] wiser[maybe?] better able to deal with the way I handle problems [absolutely].

My students think I'm quite masterfull when I teach them, but my teachers in Okinawa think I've still got a long way to go to master anything!

Dosen't everyone know it's the journey, not the arrival, that's the important thing in all this?

Mike.

Musashi pulled the 10000 days number out of his a$$. There is no proof nor anything to prove that must be the set length. MA is a fighting skill. It is a matter of physiological and psychological training and conditioning. You definitely do not need that long to produce a proficient boxer or a Muay Thai fighter, or any MA fighter. If you go to tell any athelete that it would take him/her that long to be proficient at his/her sport, you would get laughed out of town. No one in the sports field buy this BS except for people in the MA world. They believe this b/c their masters fed them this BS the same way their grandmasters fed them the same cr@p. :asian: And I say this with all due respect and no malice nor disrespect intended to anyone in particular.

Of course your knowledge and insight grow and advance with age, and you are better off than you were 27 years ago. No one denies that.

If you want to approach MA as a personal charater development or life philosophy or some ZEN nature journay of personal enlightenment, may be it takes 27 yrs. The thing is, chances are by then, you would have matured and mellowed and become a better person simply b/c you have grown wiser in age. Heck, you could be playing golf for that 27 yrs and still might have achieved that milestone. And MA might have squat little to do with it. People outside of the MA world do and often grow older and wiser in time.

Mr Clark, I read your articles and bio and you have my respect as a true MA master.

In "The secrets of Karate-do " you mentioned that training in classical Karate for self defence is futile and most blackbelts cannot fight. Correct me if I am wrong, that can only mean that it is not a fighting art in your view.

In "Is science killing the art of Karate?", I see your points about people piling scientific terms to decorate their martial art and sell it as scientifically based MA. But that is just cosmetic decoration and certainly does not pertain to making use of modern atheletic performance enhancement training methods. Hence, Science is NOT killing MA, rather snake-oil charlatans using fake scientific mumbo jumbo are polluting the art.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Musashi pulled the 10000 days number out of his a$$. There is no proof nor anything to prove that must be the set length.

He most likely did pull it out of his a$$…..but he did it after killing 60 people in duels by the time he was 30.
Maybe with all the fights to the death you have won you have a better number? (joking)
However he wrote those words when he was about 60 years old and added that he now knew he didn’t win by skill and said it was most likely luck.

Originally posted by KennethKu
In "The secrets of Karate-do " you mentioned that training in classical Karate for self defence is futile and most blackbelts cannot fight. Correct me if I am wrong, that can only mean that it is not a fighting art in your view.

I don’t know about Mike’s view but in mine it would suggest that many…..too many dojo have gone the “way” of the business instead of the “way” of the defensive art.
Which produce “kuchibushi” (mouth warriors) that can talk a good game but can’t walk it like they talk it when things get going.

Case in point:
In my dojo we spar full contact with bogu gear. (see photo)
My enrollment drops after each time we do bogu. If I announce we will be doing bogu the next class only the serious folks show up.
Many of the people in my dojo come from other styles some as high a 5th dan so they are not all “beginners”.
One guy claimed to be the All Osaka Champion when he was in University. The guy couldn’t last 1 round of bogu.
Full contact sparring is not what I would call “real” Karate but it is a bit like Marine Corps boot camp…….it weeds out the nut cases & falsely brave…….

Mike,
Why is it so many of the “young guys” on these boards that haven’t trained very long seem to think they have all the answers and most of the “old guys” on these boards that have “been there and done that” seem to have only more questions than answers when they train………weird eh….

 

[KennethKu]

Musashi was talking about the philosophical aspect of MA, IMHO. Musashi might have attributed his victory to luck than skills, but we all know better that the more skilled you are the luckier you get.

I understand your point. The fact is, 1+1 =2, it does not matter whether Einstein said so or the 3 stooges said so. It is still true. If something is true then it is true, irrespective of the messenger.

As regarding to sparring in full protective gears, I have being proposing that as the most effective training for the one training to attack. The response I got is "you don't need protective gears. What you need is to be able to control your strike. There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force" " Yes Maam. If you say so Maam."

If you run a school, you just have to cater to the need of your students. If they want to learn a performance martial art as sport instead of a combat martial art, they want what they pay for. Not going to argue with that.

Lastly, in reference to your remark addressed to Mr Clark regarding young bucks having solutions to every problem under the sun, I don't presume to offer answers here. Rather simply suggesting somethings different from the prevailing view, for further exploration. If I came across any differently, my apology. I certainly do not have answers. At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Kenneth,

I wasn’t referring to you in my comment to Mike Clarke.
It was about this thread specifically and most BBs in general.
Your answers seem to reflect what you think in a reasonable way (i.e. I can figure out where you are coming from instead of just ranting)
Nothing wrong with different opinions.

Originally posted by KennethKu


As regarding to sparring in full protective gears, I have being proposing that as the most effective training for the one training to attack. The response I got is "you don't need protective gears. What you need is to be able to control your strike. There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force" " Yes Maam. If you say so Maam."

I hear that ("There is no need for you to hit at full speed and full force") from a lot of Japanese Karate teachers too. It’s a cop out.
Hell, I have enough control NOT to hit someone….that’s easy. (I have heard that called “dead kumite” 1 meaning is not spirit another is if you practice fighting that way you will die in the real world )
It’s when someone is out there trying to kick your butt and cause you bodily harm that you need “control”! Mental and physical.
How will that person know if they have put enough power into the strike? They won’t.
The All Osaka Champ. That I mentioned was a “tippy-tap” (no to light contact) competitor and was fast enough but had “0” power in his strikes………in fact most of the time I stopped blocking them because they didn’t hurt. He could neither deliver or take a punch……which is pretty common for people that practice the way he did.
Trial by fire is good sometimes………the bogu just keeps you from getting a broken nose or your teeth knocked out………it’s still hurts enough to let you know you were “tagged”.
It also keeps you honest with yourself.

Originally posted by KennethKu
If you run a school, you just have to cater to the need of your students.

I disagree with that idea. The first thing I tell my students is “I don’t teach ballet or social dance….I teach martial arts and with that there is a small amount of pain occasionally, nothing they can’t handle and I won’t ask them to do anything beyond their level.”
The serious ones stay and the people that probably would have wasted mine & the other students time leave. Which works out the best for both of us.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Why is it so many of the “young guys” on these boards that haven’t trained very long seem to think they have all the answers and most of the “old guys” on these boards that have “been there and done that” seem to have only more questions than answers when they train………weird eh….

I know it wasn't meant for me, but I'll jump in with my 2 cents.

Because when you've been there, done it, and bought the t-shirt, you don't want to buy anymore....

Or said differently:
For each step you grow, a double path grows infront of you.


/Yari

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Case in point:
In my dojo we spar full contact with bogu gear. (see photo)
My enrollment drops after each time we do bogu. If I announce we will be doing bogu the next class only the serious folks show up.
Many of the people in my dojo come from other styles some as high a 5th dan so they are not all “beginners”.
One guy claimed to be the All Osaka Champion when he was in University. The guy couldn’t last 1 round of bogu.
Full contact sparring is not what I would call “real” Karate but it is a bit like Marine Corps boot camp…….it weeds out the nut cases & falsely brave…….

That's WAY COOL! How often do you get to do that???

Excuse my ignorance, but what's bogu gear, and wear can you
get it?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
That's WAY COOL! How often do you get to do that???

My students can do it every class if they want.
We do 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rests between rounds.
In the summer those rests seem like about 1/2 second.

Originally posted by Kirk
Excuse my ignorance, but what's bogu gear, and wear can you
get it?

Bogu just means safety eguipment, it's the head gear, gloves and chest protectors.
I have included a better photo so you can see what it looks like.
My photo was not clear so I stole one from the net.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Sorry about that my fat finger hit the send button.

You can buy the Bogu gear at many MA shops in Japan.
A member of our Assoc. is one of the few people that import it to the US.
I will try and find his website for more info.

 

[chufeng]

KennethKu stated that he had "At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified."

You mean hypotheses don't you?

A theory is something that has been tested and reviewed by a number of people within a certain discipline...a hypothesis is a scientific "guess" that you are trying to prove...

As far as your comments about Musashi...you are right in that he was talking about an art as a Way of living...because he saw martial arts as a Way...that encompasses a philosophy, code of ethics, skill in the martial aspect, wsidom, and a certain spirtuality...

Since this thread is about "mastery," I think one should think about What is mastered (if anyone ever truly reaches that level)...
I submit that we train NOT to defeat others, but to destroy our own ego and cut to the heart of what's real...that doesn't happen quickly...So, Ken, your definition of "mastery" is different (more in line with Judo-Kid's) than RyuShiKan's, Mr. Clark's, mine, or Musahi's...(not that any of us even come close to the level Musashi achieved)...but thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

that would be wisdom and spirituality...
does this thing have spell checker???

chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan .......I disagree with that idea. The first thing I tell my students is “I don’t teach ballet or social dance….I teach martial arts and with that there is a small amount of pain occasionally, nothing they can’t handle and I won’t ask them to do anything beyond their level.”
The serious ones stay and the people that probably would have wasted mine & the other students time leave. Which works out the best for both of us.

My mistake . You are absolutely correct that you have the absolute right in deciding how your school is run and what you want to teach.

I was thinking in terms of serving the needs of the clients. But you are talking about the teaching of an art. If I were to operate a school, it would have different courses to meet different needs. But that is only a reflection of personal view, and has no value to anyone else.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
KennethKu stated that he had "At best, a bunch of theories waiting to be verified."

You mean hypotheses don't you?

A theory is something that has been tested and reviewed by a number of people within a certain discipline...a hypothesis is a scientific "guess" that you are trying to prove...

As far as your comments about Musashi...you are right in that he was talking about an art as a Way of living...because he saw martial arts as a Way...that encompasses a philosophy, code of ethics, skill in the martial aspect, wsidom, and a certain spirtuality...

Since this thread is about "mastery," I think one should think about What is mastered (if anyone ever truly reaches that level)...
I submit that we train NOT to defeat others, but to destroy our own ego and cut to the heart of what's real...that doesn't happen quickly...So, Ken, your definition of "mastery" is different (more in line with Judo-Kid's) than RyuShiKan's, Mr. Clark's, mine, or Musahi's...(not that any of us even come close to the level Musashi achieved)...but thanks for bringing this thread back on topic.

The term hypothesis is fine with me. It is only important to stress that I am open to be proven incorrect. Only the truth matters. Personal views are subjected to verification and scrutiny. I will toss my personal views out as soon as they are proven wrong. (I understand it is easier said than done. More often it is everyone knows I am wrong , except me *sigh* ))

I would not bother with "mastery". It is an ideal state that actually does not really exist. How do you really determine mastery? Knowledge has no ending and no boundary. Exploring and discovering and improving, is a never ending process.

But you can achieve a level of competency where your fighting skill is reasonably good enough to prevail in combat. JudoKid defined mastery as being able to beat everyone, which basically means mastery is impossible according to his definition. So he is not exactly too far off , but unfortunately for him, he happens to think it is possible to defeat EVERYONE. *sigh* Even Karate Great Mas Oyama ran into a Tai Chi (sp?) guy he couldn't defeat. (Before readers get any great idea about Tai Chi, 99.999% of TaiChi practitioners have a hard time fighting their way out of a wet paper bag. If I offended anyone with this, my apology. It is no different than stating that 99.99% of Mcdojo cannot fight their way out of paper bag.)

I do consider MA as a fighting skill that can be taught scientifically and learn to be proficient at within a reasonable (practical) period of time. This basically focusing on the practical use of MA in military, law enforcement, personal security areas. You need to teach the personnels to be proficient in H2H combat within short and practical time. You can't seriously be talking about 10000 days there. And here, MA is more a fighting skills, than a way of life.

I try to live my life as a good person (and hope that I am successful). There is no need for MA to shape my life philosophy. I found mine long ago. Some people find their philosophy in MA and pursue MA as a way of life. I have nothing but the highest respect for that. But that is NOT the only way MA is suppose to be, neither must everyone be required to pursue MA in that manners.

 

[Pyros]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Actually, TKD, the generic name, incorporated archery especially and it was originally meant to be a combat art and now, it's more of a hand-to-hand combat art.

I thought TKD both as a name and a curriculum are very new inventions?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
My students can do it every class if they want.
We do 3 minute rounds with 1 minute rests between rounds.
In the summer those rests seem like about 1/2 second.

No doubt! I fully admit a 3 minute round would knock my *ahem*
in the dirt. But I'd love to push that until I did make it.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Bogu just means safety eguipment, it's the head gear, gloves and chest protectors.

In your opinion .. how do you think this equipment would fair
against FMA sticks? The assistant instructors at my school said
they were looking for equipment like this, for regular sparing, and
stick sparring.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You can buy the Bogu gear at many MA shops in Japan.
A member of our Assoc. is one of the few people that import it to the US. I will try and find his website for more info.

Yes, please do. I'm very interested.

Is this type of sparring common over there?

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Kirk

In your opinion .. how do you think this equipment would fair
against FMA sticks? The assistant instructors at my school said
they were looking for equipment like this, for regular sparing, and
stick sparring.

Try and PM knifeman.dk . I know they use this kind of equipment in their dojo.


/Yari

 

[Kirk]

Is it the same stuff as found here?

http://www.mitsuboshi-web.com/english/shorinji/index.html