The art or the artist

[lonecoyote]

It seems like a lot of forums (not this one particularly)can sometimes degenerate into style vs. style and technique vs. technique discussions, which can get pretty heated at times, but I'm sure many of you have seen individual martial artists that can do amazing things that, while they wouldn't sound practical, writing about them, these people can make them work for them. I've read people saying that there is no way a spinning back kick would work on the street, but you can bet that there is a guy out there who does hundreds of them a day, and can do it faster than a lot of us can punch, and is one bad dude. I've met people who have given me the impression that whatever martial art they did I wouldn't want go hardcore with them, if they did martial ballet, they would be pirouetteing on my face. Whatever works for you, or whatever you can make work, isn't that a lot more important than my style is better than yours? Not so much what you do but who you are. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there limits to this way of thinking, like, it doesn't matter how hard you train your (insert art here) or how tough you are, you will get beaten by a good (insert art here) man?

 

[dubljay]

It is most definitely the practitioner and not the art that they study. Simply being prepared (being aware of your surroundings, muscle memory responses to certain situations ect, which most if not all arts teach) will help in a SD situation. For this kind of preparedness the practitioner must be comfortable with the mechanics (body movements) and the philosophies the art that they study. Each art with its own philosophies and ways of training must match the person that studies it.


Just my opinion

-Josh

 

[terryl965]

It's the man behind there Art but even the weakest man can have a great day against the suppior fighter. Training can do alot to give you the edge but heart is what makes a fighter plan and true. :bow:

 

[Flatlander]

It takes a medium and an artist to produce art. It takes an observer to critique it. The appeal of art is subjective to the observer. :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

If we credit the art for the win, can we blame it when we lose? :asian:

 

[Corporal Hicks]

If we credit the art for the win, can we blame it when we lose? :asian:

Good question, to credit the art for a win would be using the art properly, if you lose then you could credit the art also for it has shown a weakness, a weakness you are now aware of and can learn from. No art is perfect, its all a learning experience!

Regards

 

[MJS]

It seems like a lot of forums (not this one particularly)can sometimes degenerate into style vs. style and technique vs. technique discussions, which can get pretty heated at times, but I'm sure many of you have seen individual martial artists that can do amazing things that, while they wouldn't sound practical, writing about them, these people can make them work for them. I've read people saying that there is no way a spinning back kick would work on the street, but you can bet that there is a guy out there who does hundreds of them a day, and can do it faster than a lot of us can punch, and is one bad dude. I've met people who have given me the impression that whatever martial art they did I wouldn't want go hardcore with them, if they did martial ballet, they would be pirouetteing on my face. Whatever works for you, or whatever you can make work, isn't that a lot more important than my style is better than yours? Not so much what you do but who you are. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there limits to this way of thinking, like, it doesn't matter how hard you train your (insert art here) or how tough you are, you will get beaten by a good (insert art here) man?

Good discussion! IMO, I think that all arts have something to offer. That is one of the main reasons I like to look at different arts, work with different people, share ideas, etc., because there will always be something that can be shared and in the long run, both people will benefit from it.

As for what techs. will/will not work...I think that everything has its place and time. However, we need to make sure that we find the right place and time to execute the tech. we choose. If we're on icy conditions, IMO, I don't think that going airborn is the best choice. Same can be said for crowded areas such as bars/clubs, etc. The same can also be said for the person we're fighting. If it appears that this person is good with his hands, doing a long range defense would be the best option.

Train for the goals you want to acheive. Keep in mind that while we devote a certain number of hours to training, there will always be someone better than us out there. Just because someone trains, no matter how big and bad they may appear, they are not Supermen.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

Good question, to credit the art for a win would be using the art properly, if you lose then you could credit the art also for it has shown a weakness, a weakness you are now aware of and can learn from. No art is perfect, its all a learning experience!

Rather, no practicioner is perfect. The art has had the ages to perfect it although is still is not perfect either. ie. who punches with a horizontal fist like in poomse/form? TW

 

[loki09789]

Rather, no practicioner is perfect. The art has had the ages to perfect it although is still is not perfect either. ie. who punches with a horizontal fist like in poomse/form? TW

I really don't agree with this idea completely. I say that only because the conditions/applications for the 'arts' changes with each application. Look at the technology of war and civilian life and how empty hand arts have changed due to that alone. Look at the nationalization of first world countries and the relative safety that we live in that are citizens of them. We don't 'test' our arts in reality as regularly or as desparately as our predecessors did - Thank GOD!

In the martial arts community/market, I see competitive venues, popularity, trend and market schemes driving a lot of the innovations that have impacted martial arts recently much more than any application necessities.

I would say that if we all were applying our arts regularly in reality instead of primarily training, that we would look a lot more alike than we do AND we would all be doing far less VOLUME of intricacy and Rank Running and much more consistency and fundamentals with an emphasis on timing, speed, power and grit rather than on flash, ego, 'artistic/systematic purity.'

The same shift in martial arts happened when peace settled on Japan and all these old time swordsman began getting territorial because reputation meant income/students/status in a time when those things could not be earned through battle.

 

[Andrew Green]

There are good painters and bad painters, but painting is niether better or worse then sculpting.

The problem we often have in the martial arts world is that some actors think that because they can act they can scullpt better then the sculptures, Animate better then the animators, act better then the actors, sing better then the singers, dance better then the dancers and paint better then the painters.

 

[relytjj]

Assuming we are talking about fighting exclusively. How you train in whatever art you practice is more important than your particular art. The individual is more important than how he/she trains. That is my take on it.

individual > training > art

 

[Miles]

Assuming we are talking about fighting exclusively. How you train in whatever art you practice is more important than your particular art. The individual is more important than how he/she trains. That is my take on it.

individual > training > art

I think this is a very perceptive observation.

Assuming we are speaking of "Do" arts (i.e. Karate-Do, Judo, Hapkido, Taekwondo)...we are discussing a path...literally "head way." They were designed to make better people....period. Remember the ideal is to not have to fight.

Each person on the path has individual physical and mental characteristics (i.e. age, flexibility, physical strength, stamina, reflexes, timing, indomitable spirit, etc.) which will make him/her a better fighter to varying degrees.

The manner in which one trains will impact how successful they may be in a fight. If you train without contact, you may be surprised at how contact affects you as both the recipient (i.e. impact) and the initiator (i.e. reaction force). Do you run for stamina? Eat properly? These are all variables.

What is great is that each of us has the ability to try to maximize our training experience. We are the greatest (and I believe) most important variable in the equation.

Miles

 

[Touch Of Death]

Rather, no practicioner is perfect. The art has had the ages to perfect it although is still is not perfect either. ie. who punches with a horizontal fist like in poomse/form? TW

What has perfected the art through the ages?

 

[Chronuss]

What has perfected the art through the ages?

An ounce of logic is worth more than a ton of tradition that has become obsolete through the weathering of time.

 

[47MartialMan]

I have to say that the art had recruited/inspired the practitioner-first. Without the initial inspiration, then there will be no student.

 

[Miles]

I have to say that the art had recruited/inspired the practitioner-first. Without the initial inspiration, then there will be no student.

Hopefully, this won't degenerate into a "chicken before the egg" discussion.

But the newbie student was inspired (or turned off!) by an instructor/practitioner whose training (good or bad, hard or lackluster) dictated how well the art was performed (or not!). The "art" was transmitted to the artist by an artist with more experience (instructor).

Miles

 

[47MartialMan]

I had thought about that as I was making my post.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

It seems like a lot of forums (not this one particularly)can sometimes degenerate into style vs. style and technique vs. technique discussions, which can get pretty heated at times, but I'm sure many of you have seen individual martial artists that can do amazing things that, while they wouldn't sound practical, writing about them, these people can make them work for them. I've read people saying that there is no way a spinning back kick would work on the street, but you can bet that there is a guy out there who does hundreds of them a day, and can do it faster than a lot of us can punch, and is one bad dude. I've met people who have given me the impression that whatever martial art they did I wouldn't want go hardcore with them, if they did martial ballet, they would be pirouetteing on my face. Whatever works for you, or whatever you can make work, isn't that a lot more important than my style is better than yours? Not so much what you do but who you are. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there limits to this way of thinking, like, it doesn't matter how hard you train your (insert art here) or how tough you are, you will get beaten by a good (insert art here) man?

I don't think it's necessarily about a particular style in general, I think it's more about finding an art that interests you and works for your body and mind individually. I've watched many people learning the exact same things and each perform it differently ~ some much more efficiently than others. I do think this can be enhanced by having a good teacher who can impart the knowledge in a way it can be translated and practically used by each individual. Some people are more flexible than others, more perceptive, quicker, stronger, more relaxed, powerful, and aware - these talents are innate but can be enhanced by what is taught. For me personally by opening myself up to the possibilities of other arts and experiences with other teachers to see what they have to offer, I have visibly improved my self defense skills. If someone outside of my art shows me something that works, why would I throw it away? I say keep it and use it to your advantage.

You shouldn't take what you or a would be opponent can do for granted, and I think it's best to assume that anyone you meet is a natural, and respect that they might just may be studying the perfect art for them and may possibly have mastered it. :asian:

 

[47MartialMan]

So, be weary of the opponent or the hype of the art?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

So, be weary of the opponent or the hype of the art?

How about? - respect for both :asian: