Racism in Martial Arts

[Touch Of Death]

Many Chinese MA instructors don't teach Japanese students even they share the same skin color.

It ain't about what shade you are.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore.

For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.

Now we can use our knowledge of western combat or other arts to surmise how the motions in the shell should be applied, but we will arrive a different conclusions to those the underlying Taekwondo philosophy would lead us to when understood in context. We tend to do that without thinking about it, we fill in blanks from our own experience and end up with something that might work, and might even look like Taekwondo and be called Taekwondo, but it won't be Taekwondo, because the fundamentals underlying it will be different. There are also plenty of schools out there doing this, teaching this, and being very successful with it.

If I want to fill in those gaps with the right native Taekwondo information, there really are a limited number of places to get it. I believe in going to the source, the specialist, the expert, regardless of who or where that might be. I don't perceive that to be racism, but perhaps I am wrong. These are just my opinions, after all.

You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore.

For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.

Now we can use our knowledge of western combat or other arts to surmise how the motions in the shell should be applied, but we will arrive a different conclusions to those the underlying Taekwondo philosophy would lead us to when understood in context. We tend to do that without thinking about it, we fill in blanks from our own experience and end up with something that might work, and might even look like Taekwondo and be called Taekwondo, but it won't be Taekwondo, because the fundamentals underlying it will be different. There are also plenty of schools out there doing this, teaching this, and being very successful with it.

If I want to fill in those gaps with the right native Taekwondo information, there really are a limited number of places to get it. I believe in going to the source, the specialist, the expert, regardless of who or where that might be. I don't perceive that to be racism, but perhaps I am wrong. These are just my opinions, after all.

Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...

The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.

Is that closer to your viewpoint?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...

The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.

Is that closer to your viewpoint?

I assure you it will be easy to dismantle his argument, but you won't touch his Korean Flava.

 

[Danny T]

Study the term harder.

Epic is from French ‘epique which comes from Latin epicus or from Greek epikos.
All pertaining to or constituting a long poem, tale, story, prophecy, proverb in a heroic sense. It refers to a long narrative told on a grand scale of time and/or place.

An Epic may have been religious in nature or even racist as well however, Epic it self is not.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Epic is from French ‘epique which comes from Latin epicus or from Greek epikos.
All pertaining to or constituting a long poem, tale, story, prophecy, proverb in a heroic sense. It refers to a long narrative told on a grand scale of time and/or place.

An Epic may have been religious in nature or even racist as well however, Epic it self is not.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a journey that concludes with a spiritual transformation. If that ain't religious, nothing is.

 

[Touch Of Death]

By the way, martial arts training, even in neighboring countries to Korea, are all journeys that are supposed to conclude in spiritual transformation. The epic of it all is why you train. You want the stuff.

 

[geezer]

Study the term harder.

Darn. I wasn't so clear on "epic" but I really thought I knew what harder meant.

Anyway, to get back to the OP, the cultural bias (racist is such a loaded word) in favor of seeking teachers whose nationality or ethnicity matches that of their art is a legitimate topic for debate. As Tony and others have pointed out, this bias more apparent in TMA, especially the less common TMA, than it is in competitive martial arts. In sport and competition where, above all, winning matters ...well winning matters above all! People pick their coaches largely on the basis of results ...along with all the other normal factors like location and convenience, pricing, personality, and so on.

With the more exotic TMA, the cultural identity of the instructor naturally plays into marketing. Just as students of a foreign language seek out a native speaker to learn from, martial artists often seek out a native practioner of whatever art they are interested, whether it be Japanese, Chinese Korean Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, Brasilian, Nepalese, Tibetan, Native American, Hawaiian, ...or Klingon. Good luck finding the last one. Hehehe

I don't know if I'd call it racism, cultural romanticism or what. It is definitely a form of bias. I mean, one of my escrima instructors is Mexican-American, and he never earned a black belt in any martial art that I know of. Yet for realistic self-defense and fighting, IMO his stuff is better than most of the well known Filipino instructors I've seen. Interestingly, his top assistant is Filipino, grew up in the FMA, served in the US Marines and is tough as nails. A pretty good endorsement. But there is always the cultural bias. These days probably the worse thing you can be is white. ...er ...that would be me. Lends a whole new twist to the phrase "white man's burden".


One easy way out is to suddenly find out that you have some ancestry in the appropriate ethnic group and then play it up big time. Like this picture of Darth Vader after he found out that he was 1/16 Cherokee:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/be/67/a1/be67a19210ead420fe473998cc6e98ce.jpg

 

[Danny T]

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a journey that concludes with a spiritual transformation. If that ain't religious, nothing is.

Not really.
The journey isn't the epic.
The story telling about the journey is the epic.The journey is simply the journey.
Spiritual isn't just being religious. Religious is believing in a god or a group of gods and following the rules of a religion. One can be spiritual and not be religious. One can have a spiritual experience or transformation not having anything to do with religion.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Now, you are just splitting hairs.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Darn. I wasn't so clear on "epic" but I really thought I knew what harder meant.

Anyway, to get back to the OP, the cultural bias (racist is such a loaded word) in favor of seeking teachers whose nationality or ethnicity matches that of their art is a legitimate topic for debate. As Tony and others have pointed out, this bias more apparent in TMA, especially the less common TMA, than it is in competitive martial arts. In sport and competition where, above all, winning matters ...well winning matters above all! People pick their coaches largely on the basis of results ...along with all the other normal factors like location and convenience, pricing, personality, and so on.

With the more exotic TMA, the cultural identity of the instructor naturally plays into marketing. Just as students of a foreign language seek out a native speaker to learn from, martial artists often seek out a native practioner of whatever art they are interested, whether it be Japanese, Chinese Korean Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, Brasilian, Nepalese, Tibetan, Native American, Hawaiian, ...or Klingon. Good luck finding the last one. Hehehe

I don't know if I'd call it racism, cultural romanticism or what. It is definitely a form of bias. I mean, one of my escrima instructors is Mexican-American, and he never earned a black belt in any martial art that I know of. Yet for realistic self-defense and fighting, IMO his stuff is better than most of the well known Filipino instructors I've seen. Interestingly, his top assistant is Filipino, grew up in the FMA, served in the US Marines and is tough as nails. A pretty good endorsement. But there is always the cultural bias. These days probably the worse thing you can be is white. ...er ...that would be me. Lends a whole new twist to the phrase "white man's burden".


One easy way out is to suddenly find out that you have some ancestry in the appropriate ethnic group and then play it up big time. Like this picture of Darth Vader after he found out that he was 1/16 Cherokee:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/be/67/a1/be67a19210ead420fe473998cc6e98ce.jpg

I think that is why you will never be Korean. To you it is romanticism, but to them it is THE WAY. Racism is not a good label for it, but if it talks like a duck...

 

[geezer]

I think that is why you will never be Korean. To you it is romanticism, but to them it is THE WAY. Racism is not a good label for it, but if it talks like a duck...

Er ...no, I think I will never be Korean ...BECAUSE I'M NOT KOREAN!!!!

As far as the "romanticism" reference I made, I was talking about Westerners who naively romanticize Asian cultures that they do not understand well. Sort of like the guy who came into my class and said that he wanted to study kung fu so he could live his life "like Quai Chang Caine". Sheesh! Fortunately he wandered off, presumably on his own personal journey of transformation. Epic no doubt.

Anyway the point is I think we actually kinda agree ...Que no?

 

[Gnarlie]

Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...

The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.

Is that closer to your viewpoint?

Yes, it is. There is some overlap with other asian martial arts, for example the Taegeuk concept, which also can be expressed as as Tai Chi.

But there are certainly uniquely Korean aspects.

I would also expect there to be uniquely native aspects to other arts in their originating countries/locations.

Would I learn better Krav in Israel?
Better Catch Wrestling in Lancashire?
Possibly.

But I think the further removed the originating culture is from our own, the more important it is to understand that context in order to appreciate the art fully.

I'd be looking for the expert regardless of the art and where it originated.

 

[Gnarlie]

You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.

Nope, you can keep your label, thanks. I do what I need to do to understand what I study. That applies to everything, not just Taekwondo.

I assure you it will be easy to dismantle his argument, but you won't touch his Korean Flava.

If you view dismantling to be appropriate, why don't you go ahead and dismantle my argument yourself, instead of making snide sarky comments?

 

[Tez3]

You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.

He studies a lot of wildlife? or perhaps this?
Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Using words in the wrong context confusing people and then trying to persuade them you are correct is just pointless.
nat·u·ral·ist
[ˈnaCHərəlist]
biologist ·
botanist · zoologist · ornithologist · entomologist · ecologist
a person who practices naturalism in art or literature.
a person who adopts philosophical naturalism.
ADJECTIVE
another term for naturalistic.
RELATED FORMS
naturalist (noun)
naturalists (plural noun)
naturalist (adjective)

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

Several of us have pointed out what 'epic' means, and it's not what you think it does.

 

[Touch Of Death]

He studies a lot of wildlife? or perhaps this?
Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Using words in the wrong context confusing people and then trying to persuade them you are correct is just pointless.
nat·u·ral·ist
[ˈnaCHərəlist]
biologist ·
botanist · zoologist · ornithologist · entomologist · ecologist
a person who practices naturalism in art or literature.
a person who adopts philosophical naturalism.
ADJECTIVE
another term for naturalistic.
RELATED FORMS
naturalist (noun)
naturalists (plural noun)
naturalist (adjective)

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

Several of us have pointed out what 'epic' means, and it's not what you think it does.

I meant the art is part of the epic. Sorry you were ruffled.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nope, you can keep your label, thanks. I do what I need to do to understand what I study. That applies to everything, not just Taekwondo.

If you view dismantling to be appropriate, why don't you go ahead and dismantle my argument yourself, instead of making snide sarky comments?

OK your argument is complete bull, People are people, and there is nothing Koreans do or know that the rest of us can't do and know.

 

[Gnarlie]

I meant the art is part of the epic. Sorry you were ruffled.

Both your use of 'epic' and your use of 'naturalist' are pretty much meaningless in this context, as people have pointed out.

Those words do not mean what you think they mean.

Further use of those terms without further explanation from you on how you feel they apply is pointless. If you explain what you mean instead of trying to justify your use of those terms, maybe we can understand each other.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Both your use of 'epic' and your use of 'naturalist' are pretty much meaningless in this context, as people have pointed out.

Those words do not mean what you think they mean.

Further use of those terms without further explanation from you on how you feel they apply is pointless. If you explain what you mean instead of trying to justify your use of those terms, maybe we can understand each other.

Like I said, it is bull crap to believe yourself or your people to be superior, and the only ones that can possibly get it. There you go. Plain and simple.

 

[Gnarlie]

OK your argument is complete bull, People are people, and there is nothing Koreans do or know that the rest of us can't do and know.

Correct. There is nothing that we CAN'T potentially do or know. But that is not my point.

There are things that we DON'T know and CAN'T understand without the help of natives to the culture where the art was born.

Keep trying.

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