the number of years hes been doing changes constantly, from the range hes given, hes started anywhere from age 6 to before he was born (could have sworn he said he was 19 at some point too, but don't hold me to that)
The Difference Between a Martial Artist and a Fighter
- Thread starter Zenjael
- Start date
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It's not an attack, kiddo. You made a statement (well, actually a LOT of statements) that flies in the face of reality. I raise the BS flag and ask you to explain. You refuse. Well, actually, I suspect you CAN"T, because your statements aren't actually true.
I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction.
You may want to re-examine your assumptions about which of you was comparatively inexperienced. He had 6 years training in a discipline which emphasizes full-contact sparring and physical conditioning at a level well beyond what you'll experience in most commercial dojos. On top of that, he also has significant experience in an art that practices full contact sparring with weapons which can strike much more quickly than punches or kicks.
On the other hand, most of your almost 20 years of training took place in your childhood. Unless you grew up in Thailand and started fighting pro at age 12, most of that training was not at the level that would be demanded of an adult martial artist. Furthermore, your training has been scattered among different martial arts. I've seen your video of you sparring. Given the level of ability demonstrated in that video, frankly, I would expect a boxer with 6 years of hard training at a good gym to dominate you.
Perfecting your technique should make you a better fighter - unless the techniques you are perfecting are something unrelated to combat. I guess if your techniques are practiced purely for meditative, health, or cultural reasons then they might not affect your ability to fight. Of course, if all your techniques fall into that category then there might be some debate as to whether what you are practicing is truly a martial art.
Really? I've been around a lot of martial artists and I've rarely encountered such a thing. Usually it's the first thing they learn when they sign up for lessons. I suppose there are some beginners who just know they've signed up for "karate" lessons and haven't yet learned that they're doing Shotokan as opposed to Shorin-ryu, but once they've been showing up for a little while they generally catch on.
It depends on what definitions you're putting on these terms. By my definitions, they are overlapping but not identical categories. A fighter is someone who fights - whether in competition or in the streets. He or she may or may not draw upon a martial art as the basis for his fighting ability. A martial artist is someone who practices a martial art. He or she may or may not ever get into a fight. Hopefully he or she would at least have an improved ability to handle him or herself in a fight, should one occur, based on that practice. If not, see my earlier question about whether one is truly practicing a martial art.
Are you under the impression that good technique is about looking pretty for the judge's scorecards?
How exactly are you defining "phenomenal martial artist"?
[YT]EkiKjJ4ybu4[/YT]
Oh yeah, you're phenomenal all right... anybody still got the link to his knife demo? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
WC_lun
Senior Master
Alex, you are young and so inexperienced you don't even know what it is that you are asking. Martial artist are people who train in applied violence. We all have our different reasons for training and how/when that violence is applied(ie sport, tournamant, self defense, etc) A fighter fights. It will vary how and what a fighter will fight, from individual to individual. Your corrupted and fantastical definition of martial arts is that more akin to a religion. If you want a moral code given to you by someone else, enlightenment, or just someplace that tells you how great you are, go find a religion.
That doesn't mean martial arts cannot reinforce a religion or spiritual belief. It can, just like everyday life can and should. However, martial ability or skill in a person in no way ordains them with magical powers giving them special knowledge about morality or spirituality. You have no special insight.
A common saying in kung fu circles is you cannot pour tea into an already full cup. You could learn much from your failure to match up against a skilled boxer. Your (mistaken) statements about your own prowess indicate you are not really ready to do that yet. Something to think about.
That doesn't mean martial arts cannot reinforce a religion or spiritual belief. It can, just like everyday life can and should. However, martial ability or skill in a person in no way ordains them with magical powers giving them special knowledge about morality or spirituality. You have no special insight.
A common saying in kung fu circles is you cannot pour tea into an already full cup. You could learn much from your failure to match up against a skilled boxer. Your (mistaken) statements about your own prowess indicate you are not really ready to do that yet. Something to think about.
Beautiful!!! :lfao: (And it's obviously a totally different world up there!)
So what is your purpose with this statment (in bold)? Is this your opinion or do you know something we don't? Very rude for a so called mentor.
I'm going to stick my head up in support of Dirty Dog, not that he can't stand up for himself but just to know he is not the only one who thinks Alex has his head up his €#Ā£&. If you have followed Alex's posts over he past six months you wouldn't have asked the question. Every second post contains something that contradicts the post before and the level of misinformation or lack of understanding is profound. Yet Alex still finds it necessary to tell us at every opportunity: "I consider myself a phenomenal martial artist".
I take everyone at face value. We are all martial artists of differing rank and time in service. We all put forward our thoughts and I respect those even if I disagree with the ideas expounded, especially in 'The Study'. But what I cannot stand is someone with obviously little knowledge or ability putting themselves up as an expert and making claims that do not stand up to scrutiny.
In particular, the claim of fighting with 'shattered' ribs and having them set to continue was interesting to say the least. If someone tells the truth about themselves they will not have an issue with me, but sometimes we need to run the BS flag up the pole, even if it could be considered rude. :asian:
Cyriacus
Senior Master
So You jump on Dirty Dog for saying
"I think it's important for people to know when a poster has a severe case of craniorectal impaction."
But find it totally ok for Alex to say
"Dirty dog; I will not answer your question. Keep asking, keep receiving silence.
PM the question. I won't answer it either, it's not your business, and in my eyes, aren't someone worth taking the time to explain. You hold onto the past, petty, and break forum rules doing so. Meh to you."
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Tames, speaking as a fellow Mentor with Dirty Dog, yeah, there might be one or two things that we know that others don't, but that's actually not the relevant bit here. To understand why Alex receives the posts, it's probably a good idea to look to his background on this site... most specifically the number of his threads that have ended up being moved to The Great Debate area.
Here's some reading material:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101871-Difference-Between-Hitting-Too-Hard-and-Being-Too-Experienced
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102225-Sparring-Fighting-Drunk
(One of the ones moved to the Great Debate)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101984-Zenjael-s-Self-Defense-Methodologies
(Another moved to the Great Debate)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102791-Police-Response
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/103644-Can-Anyone-Identify-This-Technique-For-Me
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101737-A-theory-on-Ki-and-Chi
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/102331-Okinawan-Karate
(Another TGD thread)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/101735-Baguazhang
(And one more TGD thread).
As you can see, questioning Alex and what he puts forth as "reality" is really an approach that has a lot of merit. Especially for anyone who hasn't encountered him before, and might take what he's saying as accurate. Speaking of which, I might take a look through that OP we have here, and see what I can find there... hmm....
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Alex if you make extrodinary claims expect to be asked for an explination
Flail chest Treatment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_chest#Treatment
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Right. Let's see what we have here, then.
Okay, the first thing I'm going to say is that this is a lot better written than many of your previous efforts... there's no mis-used words or terms, and only a few cases of confusing grammar... but I do have to ask, if the bulk isn't considered important for people to read, why put it down? To that end, as you might expect, I'm dealing with the whole thing.
And here is more of what we expect from you...
Yes, you have too much pride in your handwork. If you have any, then you have too much. We've seen it, remember. (For any who are unsure, Alex is the shorter of the two in the above linked clip, in the darker top and long pants).
The rest of this entire paragraph is self-congratulatory garbage, showing you as living in your own land of self delusion. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you were outclassed. I'd say someone with six months in a boxing gym would outclass you pretty damn easily, six years is hardly needed.
Uh... he's a boxer and Kendoka, yeah? Aside from Kendo no Kata, which is typically only done by more senior people with any regularity or focus anyway, what forms would he have been doing? This is part of why we don't tend to believe a lot of what you say, it goes against your own claims or statements. But even with that said, in order to be a better boxer (fighter), you need to get as good as you can with the techniques of boxing... to score in Kendo, it needs to be a technically correct strike... so I'm not sure what you're thinking the distinction is between becoming a better fighter and perfecting techniques. Neither of which are anything to do with the "philosophical side of the arts".
Huh?
You're not a good fighter, but as you progress through martial arts, you are forced to become a good fighter, so if you've progressed through martial arts, then you're a good fighter? So have you not progressed through the martial arts then? And if so, what has your "multiple rankings" have to do with any of this? Or are you now a good fighter, in which case what was the first statement about?
What on earth are you going on about here? WTF and ITF are organizational bodies that govern different groups of TKD, so in a way, they are styles, as it's simply a way of saying which of the two dominant approaches is being followed. I'd hardly think that, if you probed further, they couldn't tell you which exact form of TKD within those organizations they are a part of... and as far as "countless people" not being able to name the exact form of martial arts they study, I really, really, really doubt that. Next, differentiating between "penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes"? And here was I thinking you were making more sense this time around.... Alex, "penetrating" is the action during the event, "penetration" is the observation of the action after the event... there really isn't a difference.
When we get to Aikido (leaving, for the moment, that Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do, as is Chung Do Kwan, when it all comes down to it), what are you talking about here? How exactly do you have a clue what Ueshiba did, and how it compares to the forms of Aikido found today? And, more to the point, if Aikido has evolved into a range of expressions, what's the point of your statement? (Oh, and in terms of your phrasing, "how O-Sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself", uh, seeing as he died in 1969, he doesn't really conduct himself so much these days, in any way). Each different form of Aikido is a form of Aikido... it can trace itself back to Ueshiba, sometimes to a particular stage of his development of the art, so what are you talking about? And your final, bolded statements, wow, what are you on about? You really don't seem to have a clue about what makes something a martial art there, son, or how one would attain actual skill, or be considered a master in one.
For crying out loud... so you, being a "phenomenal martial artist" (yeah, I skipped ahead there), but being "not a good fighter", means you here are not a "true martial artist", or a "skilled martial artist"? As for the rest, I think you're projecting there.
Firstly, why should we think, based on the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, and education you've shown, let alone actual ability, that you would be in any position to comment on what a martial artist even is, let alone what any difference would be between a "martial artist and a fighter"? But secondly, just because you have a particularly (and highly impractical) viewpoint, what makes you think that that should, or even would apply to anyone else?
Right. "Phenomenal martial artist". Based on what, exactly? Cause, again, the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, education, and skill seems to belie that idea... And I'm not dealing with the contradictions of this paragraph.... it's just too much of a headache. But to answer the last question you have there, no. In the majority of cases, particularly in sporting systems, the idea of using the art (in the competitions) is very much part of why you train in it.
Okay, the first thing I'm going to say is that this is a lot better written than many of your previous efforts... there's no mis-used words or terms, and only a few cases of confusing grammar... but I do have to ask, if the bulk isn't considered important for people to read, why put it down? To that end, as you might expect, I'm dealing with the whole thing.
And here is more of what we expect from you...
Yes, you have too much pride in your handwork. If you have any, then you have too much. We've seen it, remember. (For any who are unsure, Alex is the shorter of the two in the above linked clip, in the darker top and long pants).
The rest of this entire paragraph is self-congratulatory garbage, showing you as living in your own land of self delusion. Frankly, I'm not surprised that you were outclassed. I'd say someone with six months in a boxing gym would outclass you pretty damn easily, six years is hardly needed.
Uh... he's a boxer and Kendoka, yeah? Aside from Kendo no Kata, which is typically only done by more senior people with any regularity or focus anyway, what forms would he have been doing? This is part of why we don't tend to believe a lot of what you say, it goes against your own claims or statements. But even with that said, in order to be a better boxer (fighter), you need to get as good as you can with the techniques of boxing... to score in Kendo, it needs to be a technically correct strike... so I'm not sure what you're thinking the distinction is between becoming a better fighter and perfecting techniques. Neither of which are anything to do with the "philosophical side of the arts".
Huh?
You're not a good fighter, but as you progress through martial arts, you are forced to become a good fighter, so if you've progressed through martial arts, then you're a good fighter? So have you not progressed through the martial arts then? And if so, what has your "multiple rankings" have to do with any of this? Or are you now a good fighter, in which case what was the first statement about?
What on earth are you going on about here? WTF and ITF are organizational bodies that govern different groups of TKD, so in a way, they are styles, as it's simply a way of saying which of the two dominant approaches is being followed. I'd hardly think that, if you probed further, they couldn't tell you which exact form of TKD within those organizations they are a part of... and as far as "countless people" not being able to name the exact form of martial arts they study, I really, really, really doubt that. Next, differentiating between "penetrating, penetration, and so on, concerning strikes"? And here was I thinking you were making more sense this time around.... Alex, "penetrating" is the action during the event, "penetration" is the observation of the action after the event... there really isn't a difference.
When we get to Aikido (leaving, for the moment, that Moo Duk Kwan is Tang Soo Do, as is Chung Do Kwan, when it all comes down to it), what are you talking about here? How exactly do you have a clue what Ueshiba did, and how it compares to the forms of Aikido found today? And, more to the point, if Aikido has evolved into a range of expressions, what's the point of your statement? (Oh, and in terms of your phrasing, "how O-Sensei, the creator of the art, conducts himself", uh, seeing as he died in 1969, he doesn't really conduct himself so much these days, in any way). Each different form of Aikido is a form of Aikido... it can trace itself back to Ueshiba, sometimes to a particular stage of his development of the art, so what are you talking about? And your final, bolded statements, wow, what are you on about? You really don't seem to have a clue about what makes something a martial art there, son, or how one would attain actual skill, or be considered a master in one.
For crying out loud... so you, being a "phenomenal martial artist" (yeah, I skipped ahead there), but being "not a good fighter", means you here are not a "true martial artist", or a "skilled martial artist"? As for the rest, I think you're projecting there.
Firstly, why should we think, based on the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, and education you've shown, let alone actual ability, that you would be in any position to comment on what a martial artist even is, let alone what any difference would be between a "martial artist and a fighter"? But secondly, just because you have a particularly (and highly impractical) viewpoint, what makes you think that that should, or even would apply to anyone else?
Right. "Phenomenal martial artist". Based on what, exactly? Cause, again, the complete lack of knowledge, insight, understanding, education, and skill seems to belie that idea... And I'm not dealing with the contradictions of this paragraph.... it's just too much of a headache. But to answer the last question you have there, no. In the majority of cases, particularly in sporting systems, the idea of using the art (in the competitions) is very much part of why you train in it.
It's a diagnosis. Not one you'll find a DRG for, admittedly, but I believe it is accurate. Try reading a few of his phenomenal posts.
Well, as someone else said, just because one trains, doesnt automatically mean they're going to be good at what they're doing. One can train for 10yrs, and one would assume that would mean they'd be capable of dealing with a fight, but in fact, thats not always the case.
IMHO, the arts were designed for fighting. That being said, I feel that if you are with the right teachers and training partners, and of course, if you follow their advice, and training methods, that the MAist will also be a great fighter.
:lol: Ahh....I almost forgot about this. Good Lord.......
I do know all about Alex and I agree with everyones opinion.
Dirty Dog is a Mentor. Alex is not.
Hoo boy, lot to reply to. I'll do it in order, and make it as succinct as possible.
Kempodisciple; I do not think the world is out to get me. But when the first reply is what it was, that's just insulting.
Richparsons; the exchange I had brought to mind that while I've met many good fighters in the martial arts, I actually haven't met as many as I thought I had. It raised this question to me; is it better to be a better fighter, or a better martial artist? To me its the latter. My hopes with this post is that martial artists all would prefer to be better at that than being a thug who can throw a punch, so to speak. The post, at least I had hoped, left one or two readers asking themself the question of which theyd rather be. Is that not worth bringing up as a topic?
Iklawson; You are right. However, I said that because that's exactly on the certificate I have. Heck, looking at it now it reads Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. Funny, though mines on paper of course. You know probably better than most tae kwon do has a very... obfuscated history in a myriad of ways. I was trying to simplify, but you are absolutely right in your point. I honor you for that pin you possess, btw.
Geezer; the contradiction is only one because I began martial arts in the early 90s with the advent of those 'turtle' or 'lil'ninja' programs. Did I learn how to throw a front and back punch, and how to do a front kick, and front stance by the time I was 2? Yes. But I would say that I actually began training when I was 4, and in the childrens class for underbelts. I am only trying to be truthful with my own background. I say 20 years because it's true. But I'd say I actually started when I was 4, because that's when it stopped being babysitting, and actual focus on the arts.
I consider myself, and Ill use the word again, a phenomenal martial artist because others who are masters have said this to me. Am I wrong to repeat what others have felt I deserve to be labeled? But prideful? That is something else. One can be honest about one's ability, how one is good, and where one needs work. Most of the people I know, have no idea I practice. It's a topic I really only bring up (martial arts) at the dojo, with training partners, and here. Why? Martial arts is about deception, and a part of that is not to attract overt amounts of attention to oneself.
Pride is wearing your art on your sleeve like a badge. I don't feel right calling myself prideful, when being humble is how so many teachers have let me become their student, and honored me in return. Amazing martial artist? Sure, why not. But there are a lot better, and a lot more whom I could learn from. And I am being honest when I say that I am of that calibur of an artist. But I could also grow more.
But better? Than who? The only person I'm competing against is myself, and I'm both the winner and loser in that race.
Cyriacus; Is it not humble that the person who would consider himself good, would create a post on a public sphere exploring how he was bested. Being a phenomenal, a good martial artist is just that. And when someone is one, they know, and should be able to speak freely about it. Nowhere do you see me stating I'm better than anyone else.
The only way to grow as a 'fighter' is by doing as you said.
I think many though think that when I mean fighter, I am referring to a martial artist who focuses on the combat side. I'm not; I'm referring to people who neglect almost all aspects of the art, and focus only on fighting.
And by outfought, what does that mean to you? That he pummeled me into the ground? That isn't what I meant.
TonyDismukes; Part of my training took place in my childhood. The meat of it, the actual training began at 10 and has never stopped. I practice 3 times a day for an hour each, on top of a morning and night static stretching. I never stopped training, save once, for a short period of time.
The video being referred to is often used as an example by others to prove a point completely irregardless to why the video was made, and posted. I think I've heard so many criticisms on it some even contradict. I posted that video after one of my first threads where it became common view that I do not use control in contact fighting. The video is proof of how erred that is. It was not to demonstrate awesome ability, or perfect technique, it was only some of the style I employ, and how I do have considerable control.
As for people not knowing the name of their own style, it's much more important in the Japanese arts to fully appreciate the technique, art, and founders. I recently visited a school where a martial artist employing the Jhoon Rhee system of forms claimed he was a Moo Duk Kwan practitioner. It's a problem, perhaps it's one mainly with TKD.
Perfect technique I suppose is a misnomer, for the definition of perfection in its own right can disavow the possibility of it happening. Good technique is about executing the technique as it is meant to be, correctly, for the sake of the technique itself, and the art. How often have you sparred someone proud of say their roundhouse, so they flit it out, even when out of range? It's about right movement for the sake of harmony. And when you actually have a combat with true rapport between practitioners... there's a lot less violence than there is harmony.
And by phenomenal martial artist I mean this; someone who practices their art with integrity. The kind of person who if they do a repetition of 20 and make 1 mistake, start all over, ad infinitude until they get it right, or can no longer move. Someone who others come to for advice for how they can improve, and in the interaction, both grow. Phenomenal is too small a word to describe what I mean, but we all know those artists who are like this. They practice not to be cool, not to win, but for the sake of the art itself, and the love of it. You can't define someone like that with just one word, and when you try, it merely makes it seem like they're bragging, or others are talking them up.
The person I respect as a martial artist is he who recognizes it as the art of harmony between body and else, and we learn this in the martial arts more than just by punching and blocking.
But... I also tie my spirituality in Buddhism closely to my martial arts, so I understand my definition is rather unorthodox, or could be considered so.
Wc_Lun; martial arts is my spirituality, alongside my mahayana beliefs. And they compliment each other well, I might add. I always love that old cliche, but I have a simple response to it; ditch the cup, get a bowl.
Knowledge is truth. Truth doesn't conflict with other truth. Likewise, I've noticed that the different styles I can utilize tend not to conflict unless I'm forcing them too.
But experienced... I'll buy that I could use more. But then again I've been mugged twice, stopped two assaults, a convenience store robbery, and just recently someone trying to attack me drunkenly. You tell me how much more experience I need for me to know if my art works or not. I seem to be perfectly fine
.
Dirty-dog; As I said before, you focus on the past. The knife demonstration was when I was in high school, and look closely- those are steak knives. Not combat. Not competition, kitchen cutlery. That entire form was made up, and done to demonstrate a point- that, that particular tournament had a serious problem judging fairly. The fact you actually look at that video and consider it an exhibition of who I am as an artist... why would I keep bantering with you when you can't even glean the actual message behind the video.
It seems the greatest point of contention in this post is my use of that word 'phenomenal'. I have no problem saying I'm not then, if it will appease the masses on this board. But when ability is something subjective, especially in this art, than no one can apply that title to themself. And that's wrong. A martial artist should have integrity, and that includes honesty. And if they are good at what they do, it would be wrong to say otherwise. No one on this board has met me, let alone taken the time to actually practice either with, or against me in a match. It's like blowing hot air until you do, especially when you point to examples of me from 6 years ago, when I'm 22 now. Granted not a long time to pass, but it offers an infinite amount of time to improve with dedication.
I don't walk around calling myself the best artist alive. I am content in just being a martial artist. And that's the thing K-man; for someone who touts experience as the pre-requisite for you to respect them, you are being terribly hypocritical by not in turn giving me that respect in turn. Because this is martial arts, and you know what, my experience in the arts has probably been much longer, and even if much shorter, is just as valuable as the time you've spent.
I've had plenty of injuries I've fought through- it's called perseverance, a trait all true martial artists should have, I think.
Chris Parker; One of my other hobbies is writing. The non-bolded is just background for anyone who may want to read it. I enjoy reading as much as possible, so if I were say reading my post, I'd read the unbolded too, just so I can get more background info. It may not be necessary, but it could help clarify, which we all well know is a difficulty with me.
I wish I could edit that actually; I meant the shodan in Kendo to be applicable toward my background, not his. Such is typing when tired. You, and others make an absolutely valid point that depending on the context of match, how strikes land matter in sport/arts like Kendo. In boxing, the constant improvement of technique is what enables growth. And there is a philosophical side to it- does one focus on sparring, or working with the teacher in private to perfect that technique. I'm of the mind if you perfect the technique, with time and practicing it pragmatically with another one becomes a better fighter.
I would say Chris, on a board like this, where I do not compete I have no place to say whether I'm a good, or a bad fighter. And besides the point, the effectiveness of our fighting is circumstantial at all times, even when the odds are all in our favor. It just seemed prudent that if I'm trying to make a contrast between the arts, and fighting, than if I'm going to put myself in the white as a good martial artist it seems fair that I also admit that I feel I could be a better fighter. I don't compete any longer either.
I noticed my typo as well Chris, but too late for me to edit it. What I mean is; penetrating, transference, pushing types of strikes. My b on the typo.
I'll end my reply on this; I consider myself a well read, and educated individual. But I could always learn more. It's the same thing for martial arts, and I well understand that I have decades to continue. If me considering myself an above average offends, that really isn't on me. But since the last person who told me that is a 5th dan of over 50 years, I don't mind repeating it. But it takes others of equal pride to take offense at someone they think is pride. I am prideful; of the arts, and that I've been allowed to take part in them. But going around thinking I'm better than everyone else? Which seems to be the kind of pride incensing people here...
This whole thread gave me a good laugh- thank you guys for your responses, I actually got some awesome answers for once. It is true, there are multiple paths to martial arts, and it means something to each of us, in our own way. That's not something which is always easy to remember, but I thank you all for the reminder.
Kempodisciple; I do not think the world is out to get me. But when the first reply is what it was, that's just insulting.
Richparsons; the exchange I had brought to mind that while I've met many good fighters in the martial arts, I actually haven't met as many as I thought I had. It raised this question to me; is it better to be a better fighter, or a better martial artist? To me its the latter. My hopes with this post is that martial artists all would prefer to be better at that than being a thug who can throw a punch, so to speak. The post, at least I had hoped, left one or two readers asking themself the question of which theyd rather be. Is that not worth bringing up as a topic?
Iklawson; You are right. However, I said that because that's exactly on the certificate I have. Heck, looking at it now it reads Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. Funny, though mines on paper of course. You know probably better than most tae kwon do has a very... obfuscated history in a myriad of ways. I was trying to simplify, but you are absolutely right in your point. I honor you for that pin you possess, btw.
Geezer; the contradiction is only one because I began martial arts in the early 90s with the advent of those 'turtle' or 'lil'ninja' programs. Did I learn how to throw a front and back punch, and how to do a front kick, and front stance by the time I was 2? Yes. But I would say that I actually began training when I was 4, and in the childrens class for underbelts. I am only trying to be truthful with my own background. I say 20 years because it's true. But I'd say I actually started when I was 4, because that's when it stopped being babysitting, and actual focus on the arts.
I consider myself, and Ill use the word again, a phenomenal martial artist because others who are masters have said this to me. Am I wrong to repeat what others have felt I deserve to be labeled? But prideful? That is something else. One can be honest about one's ability, how one is good, and where one needs work. Most of the people I know, have no idea I practice. It's a topic I really only bring up (martial arts) at the dojo, with training partners, and here. Why? Martial arts is about deception, and a part of that is not to attract overt amounts of attention to oneself.
Pride is wearing your art on your sleeve like a badge. I don't feel right calling myself prideful, when being humble is how so many teachers have let me become their student, and honored me in return. Amazing martial artist? Sure, why not. But there are a lot better, and a lot more whom I could learn from. And I am being honest when I say that I am of that calibur of an artist. But I could also grow more.
But better? Than who? The only person I'm competing against is myself, and I'm both the winner and loser in that race.
Cyriacus; Is it not humble that the person who would consider himself good, would create a post on a public sphere exploring how he was bested. Being a phenomenal, a good martial artist is just that. And when someone is one, they know, and should be able to speak freely about it. Nowhere do you see me stating I'm better than anyone else.
The only way to grow as a 'fighter' is by doing as you said.
I think many though think that when I mean fighter, I am referring to a martial artist who focuses on the combat side. I'm not; I'm referring to people who neglect almost all aspects of the art, and focus only on fighting.
And by outfought, what does that mean to you? That he pummeled me into the ground? That isn't what I meant.
TonyDismukes; Part of my training took place in my childhood. The meat of it, the actual training began at 10 and has never stopped. I practice 3 times a day for an hour each, on top of a morning and night static stretching. I never stopped training, save once, for a short period of time.
The video being referred to is often used as an example by others to prove a point completely irregardless to why the video was made, and posted. I think I've heard so many criticisms on it some even contradict. I posted that video after one of my first threads where it became common view that I do not use control in contact fighting. The video is proof of how erred that is. It was not to demonstrate awesome ability, or perfect technique, it was only some of the style I employ, and how I do have considerable control.
As for people not knowing the name of their own style, it's much more important in the Japanese arts to fully appreciate the technique, art, and founders. I recently visited a school where a martial artist employing the Jhoon Rhee system of forms claimed he was a Moo Duk Kwan practitioner. It's a problem, perhaps it's one mainly with TKD.
Perfect technique I suppose is a misnomer, for the definition of perfection in its own right can disavow the possibility of it happening. Good technique is about executing the technique as it is meant to be, correctly, for the sake of the technique itself, and the art. How often have you sparred someone proud of say their roundhouse, so they flit it out, even when out of range? It's about right movement for the sake of harmony. And when you actually have a combat with true rapport between practitioners... there's a lot less violence than there is harmony.
And by phenomenal martial artist I mean this; someone who practices their art with integrity. The kind of person who if they do a repetition of 20 and make 1 mistake, start all over, ad infinitude until they get it right, or can no longer move. Someone who others come to for advice for how they can improve, and in the interaction, both grow. Phenomenal is too small a word to describe what I mean, but we all know those artists who are like this. They practice not to be cool, not to win, but for the sake of the art itself, and the love of it. You can't define someone like that with just one word, and when you try, it merely makes it seem like they're bragging, or others are talking them up.
The person I respect as a martial artist is he who recognizes it as the art of harmony between body and else, and we learn this in the martial arts more than just by punching and blocking.
But... I also tie my spirituality in Buddhism closely to my martial arts, so I understand my definition is rather unorthodox, or could be considered so.
Wc_Lun; martial arts is my spirituality, alongside my mahayana beliefs. And they compliment each other well, I might add. I always love that old cliche, but I have a simple response to it; ditch the cup, get a bowl.
Knowledge is truth. Truth doesn't conflict with other truth. Likewise, I've noticed that the different styles I can utilize tend not to conflict unless I'm forcing them too.
But experienced... I'll buy that I could use more. But then again I've been mugged twice, stopped two assaults, a convenience store robbery, and just recently someone trying to attack me drunkenly. You tell me how much more experience I need for me to know if my art works or not. I seem to be perfectly fine
.Dirty-dog; As I said before, you focus on the past. The knife demonstration was when I was in high school, and look closely- those are steak knives. Not combat. Not competition, kitchen cutlery. That entire form was made up, and done to demonstrate a point- that, that particular tournament had a serious problem judging fairly. The fact you actually look at that video and consider it an exhibition of who I am as an artist... why would I keep bantering with you when you can't even glean the actual message behind the video.
It seems the greatest point of contention in this post is my use of that word 'phenomenal'. I have no problem saying I'm not then, if it will appease the masses on this board. But when ability is something subjective, especially in this art, than no one can apply that title to themself. And that's wrong. A martial artist should have integrity, and that includes honesty. And if they are good at what they do, it would be wrong to say otherwise. No one on this board has met me, let alone taken the time to actually practice either with, or against me in a match. It's like blowing hot air until you do, especially when you point to examples of me from 6 years ago, when I'm 22 now. Granted not a long time to pass, but it offers an infinite amount of time to improve with dedication.
I don't walk around calling myself the best artist alive. I am content in just being a martial artist. And that's the thing K-man; for someone who touts experience as the pre-requisite for you to respect them, you are being terribly hypocritical by not in turn giving me that respect in turn. Because this is martial arts, and you know what, my experience in the arts has probably been much longer, and even if much shorter, is just as valuable as the time you've spent.
I've had plenty of injuries I've fought through- it's called perseverance, a trait all true martial artists should have, I think.
Chris Parker; One of my other hobbies is writing. The non-bolded is just background for anyone who may want to read it. I enjoy reading as much as possible, so if I were say reading my post, I'd read the unbolded too, just so I can get more background info. It may not be necessary, but it could help clarify, which we all well know is a difficulty with me.
I wish I could edit that actually; I meant the shodan in Kendo to be applicable toward my background, not his. Such is typing when tired. You, and others make an absolutely valid point that depending on the context of match, how strikes land matter in sport/arts like Kendo. In boxing, the constant improvement of technique is what enables growth. And there is a philosophical side to it- does one focus on sparring, or working with the teacher in private to perfect that technique. I'm of the mind if you perfect the technique, with time and practicing it pragmatically with another one becomes a better fighter.
I would say Chris, on a board like this, where I do not compete I have no place to say whether I'm a good, or a bad fighter. And besides the point, the effectiveness of our fighting is circumstantial at all times, even when the odds are all in our favor. It just seemed prudent that if I'm trying to make a contrast between the arts, and fighting, than if I'm going to put myself in the white as a good martial artist it seems fair that I also admit that I feel I could be a better fighter. I don't compete any longer either.
I noticed my typo as well Chris, but too late for me to edit it. What I mean is; penetrating, transference, pushing types of strikes. My b on the typo.
I'll end my reply on this; I consider myself a well read, and educated individual. But I could always learn more. It's the same thing for martial arts, and I well understand that I have decades to continue. If me considering myself an above average offends, that really isn't on me. But since the last person who told me that is a 5th dan of over 50 years, I don't mind repeating it. But it takes others of equal pride to take offense at someone they think is pride. I am prideful; of the arts, and that I've been allowed to take part in them. But going around thinking I'm better than everyone else? Which seems to be the kind of pride incensing people here...
This whole thread gave me a good laugh- thank you guys for your responses, I actually got some awesome answers for once. It is true, there are multiple paths to martial arts, and it means something to each of us, in our own way. That's not something which is always easy to remember, but I thank you all for the reminder.
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