The "accuracy" of HEMA

[jayoliver00]

For the record, my primary arts currently are also BJJ + Muay Thai/MMA. My weapons background is primarily FMA & SCA, with some other stuff mixed in over the years. HEMA is a relatively new art for me. My group is focusing on Meyer, but I've played a bit with other systems. I did a little bit of LARP sparring (Amtgard) before the pandemic hit. The local Amtgard group just started back up in-person events a few weeks ago, but I haven't found time in the schedule yet to make it back, due to some family responsibilities. Hopefully I'll be able to slot that in sometime in the upcoming months. I don't claim to be a great fighter in any weapon art or combat sport, but thanks to 40+ years of martial arts training I'm generally able to jump in at better than the typical beginner level of sparring.

First part yes. LARPing is a real skill set. Second part no. There's nothing particularly historical about the sparring methods. I'm sure there are HEMA practitioners who also LARP and will slip in a historical technique if it works well under that particular skill set, but fundamentally the rules of LARP sparring are not designed or optimized to encourage the body mechanics, tactical approaches, or specific techniques of historical swordsmanship. Or to put it another way, the best training for surviving an historical fight with real swords is not the best preparation for excelling in LARP battles.

Thanks for the response. Your OP was still berating LARPING until I pressed you on it. Amtgard seems to be a lighter form of LARPING than what I do but it's still swinging a blade. Whether they use the forms & techniques of HEMA or of the Asian arts, if the sword hits you, it hits you. Did the Africans learn HEMA during that time period? But they knew how to swing a blad & poke with a spear. And if it were real, then you'll die or on the way towards death as follow up shots are coming.

And how are LARP battles that much different from SCA? Have you been to Pennsic? It's mostly about 8-12 foot spear poking in a line battle. And I've never seen a HEMA battle of more than 30 people at once, let alone 50 to 100 to 500+ for some LARP events. My point being, you have no venue to train nor prove that you have the skills of fighting in a battle with your HEMA skills among other HEMO people. While in LARP & SCA, you can.

 

[jayoliver00]

As I said earlier, you’re taking his comment as a personal attack. Not sure why you’re so worked up. It seemed quite different when I read it.

I'm just making an argument, like you are. I can say the same about why you're so worked up by my arguments.

 

[jayoliver00]

I’ve known a few LARPers, including some re-enactors. None were concerned with usable skills. Some (the reenactors) we’re concerned with some level of historical accuracy, I assume some are also interested in working skills in whatever their area of specialty is.

I would have thought there’s a distinction between HEMA participants and the folks who hang around to role-play (who I’d have called LARPers or some such). Perhaps that distinction is only in my head.

You probably don't know that many Larpers or they are of the type that are mostly into role playing.

I'm referring to the Larpers that are serious about winning with their foam sticks and train it as a sport.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You probably don't know that many Larpers or they are of the type that are mostly into role playing.

I'm referring to the Larpers that are serious about winning with their foam sticks and train it as a sport.

Which is not all Larpers. Which is the point that was made initially.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You probably don't know that many Larpers or they are of the type that are mostly into role playing.

I'm referring to the Larpers that are serious about winning with their foam sticks and train it as a sport.

True on all points. Which rather makes my point for me.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Thanks for the response. Your OP was still berating LARPING until I pressed you on it. Amtgard seems to be a lighter form of LARPING than what I do but it's still swinging a blade. Whether they use the forms & techniques of HEMA or of the Asian arts, if the sword hits you, it hits you. Did the Africans learn HEMA during that time period? But they knew how to swing a blad & poke with a spear. And if it were real, then you'll die or on the way towards death as follow up shots are coming.

And how are LARP battles that much different from SCA? Have you been to Pennsic? It's mostly about 8-12 foot spear poking in a line battle. And I've never seen a HEMA battle of more than 30 people at once, let alone 50 to 100 to 500+ for some LARP events. My point being, you have no venue to train nor prove that you have the skills of fighting in a battle with your HEMA skills among other HEMO people. While in LARP & SCA, you can.

Funnily enough people dont let you do shield and spear because its not fair or fun. HEMA tends to like longsword and sword a lot, despite the previlence of spears etc. (probbly romanticism behind swords honestly)

Also, another thing i remmebered a re enactment group could devise a game for free sparring for safety reasons in more free combat demos, so it looks more realstic and accounts for the lack of safett barriers. I was looking into regia anlorium and they apaprntly have a game they devised for combat demos, basically one hit and your dead and to avoid certain places due to lack of armour (given they would be wearing peorid armour and using just blunted real weapons) they also do media work when hired, so i imagine the more closed off and scripted fights they can make more realstic just a event open to the public and is "freer" in who can win has a diffrent concern for this persons going to win, how do you make it flashy.

 

[lklawson]

Funnily enough people dont let you do shield and spear because its not fair or fun. HEMA tends to like longsword and sword a lot, despite the previlence of spears etc. (probbly romanticism behind swords honestly)

Spear is the king of melee weapons, and for a good reason. Highly effective. But even in period manuals, the Spear doesn't always get as much play. Look at the Goliath manuscript, for instance; lots of sword but the closest to including spear is the jousting section. I think part of this is because anyone could afford a spear but swords were weapons of status. People with money commission and buy fight manuals.

Past that, as has been well noted, thrusts are particularly difficult to make "safe" and a thrust with a pole weapon is more difficult yet. Yes, there are ways; look at the 19th Century bayonet trainers and modern foils. Recently, I've been making a concerted effort to survey and study late 19th Century and early 20th Century "Quarterstaff" methods, almost all of which appear to be Sporting systems. All of them that are Sporting specific either teach thrusts but then specifically prohibit them during during Assaulting, or omit them from the system completely. When justifications for this are given in the texts, it is always based on safety and the contention that thrusting with a 6-to-8-foot staff is exceptionally likely to cause serious injuries, even when the staff is light rattan or bamboo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

What did I misinterpret, and 3 times?

Taking offense at statements which were not intended to give offense and then, when corrected on your misunderstanding you get pissy, now complaining that you are being told how to feel. You're holding on to it like it's the last life-boat on the Titanic and frankly, it got old and boring a long time ago.

 

[Flying Crane]

Spear is the king of melee weapons, and for a good reason. Highly effective. But even in period manuals, the Spear doesn't always get as much play. Look at the Goliath manuscript, for instance; lots of sword but the closest to including spear is the jousting section. I think part of this is because anyone could afford a spear but swords were weapons of status. People with money commission and buy fight manuals.

Past that, as has been well noted, thrusts are particularly difficult to make "safe" and a thrust with a pole weapon is more difficult yet. Yes, there are ways; look at the 19th Century bayonet trainers and modern foils. Recently, I've been making a concerted effort to survey and study late 19th Century and early 20th Century "Quarterstaff" methods, almost all of which appear to be Sporting systems. All of them that are Sporting specific either teach thrusts but then specifically prohibit them during during Assaulting, or omit them from the system completely. When justifications for this are given in the texts, it is always based on safety and the contention that thrusting with a 6-to-8-foot staff is exceptionally likely to cause serious injuries, even when the staff is light rattan or bamboo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

In Chinese martial arts, spear is king of the weapons. Based on my training, I agree. It is excellent and would be quite effective and deadly.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

@lklawson

just thought about the footwork comment. I wonder if the choice of training floor is inspired by what is worn on your feet, or your choice of wear footware is. And i also wonder how footware impacted this as shoe technology and footware technology has changed. Also some sports and martial arts use shoes to increase their effectiveness, i think boxing uses its shoes to increase traction so aid in delivering punches when you plant your feet. (i think they have shoes where only the ball has proper, or the most grip, could be thinking of a diffrent sport)

This is all sort of inspired by me nearly friction burning my feet doing patterns on carpet in socks. and then i realised if barefoot, you tend to be on wooden floors if inside, or sports hall type floors, or if outside on grass. Like Karate and japanese martial arts in general tend to do things barefooted, i think thats related to them usually training on wooden floors (among the tradtion of not wearing shoes indoors)

Id love to see some videos analysing diffrent foot positioning on diffrent traction levels.

 

[lklawson]

@lklawson

just thought about the footwork comment. I wonder if the choice of training floor is inspired by what is worn on your feet, or your choice of wear footware is. And i also wonder how footware impacted this as shoe technology and footware technology has changed. Also some sports and martial arts use shoes to increase their effectiveness, i think boxing uses its shoes to increase traction so aid in delivering punches when you plant your feet. (i think they have shoes where only the ball has proper, or the most grip, could be thinking of a diffrent sport)

Boxing shoe evolved with the rules of the sport. Initially, no one cared what shoes you wore because you were fighting on the grass, on bare dirt, on straw, in a bar, on a barge, whatever. A few evolutions later, there was a rule set which specified that the boxers couldn't wear hob-nailed shoes. IMS, it wasn't until the prevalence of canvas rings that specific rules dictating the details of footwear became a thing.

Fencing has had a similar evolution. Early manuals on fencing say little about the shoes. The expectation was, apparently, that you just wore whatever shoes you were going to be fighting in; daily footwear. Now you have specialty shoes you buy specifically for the piste.

All that saying, I think you're probably right. As the sports evolved, the footwear evolved with it to give competitors an edge in the sport.

This is all sort of inspired by me nearly friction burning my feet doing patterns on carpet in socks. and then i realised if barefoot, you tend to be on wooden floors if inside, or sports hall type floors, or if outside on grass. Like Karate and japanese martial arts in general tend to do things barefooted, i think thats related to them usually training on wooden floors (among the tradtion of not wearing shoes indoors)

Id love to see some videos analysing diffrent foot positioning on diffrent traction levels.

It's definitely a thing. How often do you see BJJ or Jodoka wearing wrestling shoes on the mat? Never mind something like boxing shoes. I think I'd enjoy seeing a survey like that too. Heck, I'd do it myself if I had the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

It's definitely a thing. How often do you see BJJ or Jodoka wearing wrestling shoes on the mat? Never mind something like boxing shoes. I think I'd enjoy seeing a survey like that too. Heck, I'd do it myself if I had the time.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I've seen it in training, though it makes it a lot easier to get caught in a heel hook because the shoes give the other guy a really nice hand hold. Usually, I think people who wear wrestling shoes are protecting an injury of some kind, but it's kind of like head gear. Not common, but not prohibited, at least in training.

Competitions have rules about uniforms, though. That's a different thing.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I apologize that I've been too busy to get to my breakdown of what skills do and do not carry over from different forms of weapon combat sports to each other and to actual weapon fighting, but I thought these comments deserved a bit of a response in the meantime.

Whether they use the forms & techniques of HEMA or of the Asian arts, if the sword hits you, it hits you.

This raises a question which gets back to my original discussion of the "accuracy" of HEMA. Why do we need to bother with the historical manuals? Why can't we just do a bunch of sparring (LARP rules, SCA rules, HEMA, Kendo, Olympic fencing, whatever) and see what works?

The problem is two-fold. The first part is that sparring (like any training method) is a simulation which differs in various ways, large or small, from a real fight. The second is that actual sword fighting with real swords is pretty much gone from the world. Armies don't use swords on the battlefield. Gentlemen don't decide questions of honor by dueling with real swords. Sometimes in societies where machetes are common workplace tools, you'll find them used for assaults or murders, but not so much for regular dueling.

If you look at other aspects of fighting or martial arts, we have a lot more to go on.

Want to know how grappling works, under specific rulesets or in a street fight or in law enforcement or in a number of other scenarios? We have millions of people doing some sort of grappling every day and we have tons of data on how it plays out under different circumstances.

Want to know how to win a fist fight? We have countless hours of video with people getting knocked out by punches in boxing matches, karate matches, Muay Thai matches, MMA matches, street fights, bar fights, you name it. We can compare our training and our sparring to how those fights play out and even try it out for ourselves if we like.

Want to know how to win a full-contact stick fight, the sort where you may need to knock out or disable an opponent? That gets trickier and more dangerous. The Dog Brothers are probably the gold standard for that sort of training (although they aren't the only ones who do it). They don't spend the majority of their training in full-contact matches, but they do have them as a reality check for the rest of their training. They try to avoid permanent injury, but fighters do get knocked out or temporarily disabled. I'd say their experience gives a reasonably realistic picture of how actual stick fighting between skilled combatants can play out.

When it comes to swords, we just don't have that kind of first hand data. Swords are not sticks. Being able to tag your sparring partner first with a boffer weapon or a foil or a shinai or a feder (the most common form of steel training weapon in HEMA) does not necessarily translate into surviving a fight to the death between opponents with sharp swords. So we try to validate our sparring experiences against the historical record and our cutting practice and hope that by putting it all together we can have some approximation of the reality.

Have you been to Pennsic? It's mostly about 8-12 foot spear poking in a line battle. And I've never seen a HEMA battle of more than 30 people at once, let alone 50 to 100 to 500+ for some LARP events. My point being, you have no venue to train nor prove that you have the skills of fighting in a battle with your HEMA skills among other HEMO people. While in LARP & SCA, you can.

I have indeed been to Pennsic a number of times and have fought multiple times in the field battles, the woods battles, and the bridge battles. I've also participated in group melees at smaller events.

I do agree that one of the most valuable insights experience in the SCA brings to understanding medieval warfare is grokking the difference between one-on-one dueling and fights between mass formations. It's not so much that SCA mass melees are all that accurate in the exact specifics of historical battlefield formation fighting. (They're not, overall, although I'm sure there are some details which might match reality.) It's more just understanding that group fighting is different from individual fighting. Being able to maintain a tight formation, moving in sync with your comrades and protecting them as they protect you, is key. The clever evasive footwork you might rely on in an individual duel is no longer relevant.

For the record, most HEMA practitioners are working from sources which are focused on individual or small-scale combat rather than full-scale army battlefield tactics. I believe there are some extant treatises which address formation battlefield tactics, but we don't have the numbers to practice marching around in pike squares. Maybe at some point in the future we'll have large groups which will explore that sort of scenario.

 

[jayoliver00]

I apologize that I've been too busy to get to my breakdown of what skills do and do not carry over from different forms of weapon combat sports to each other and to actual weapon fighting, but I thought these comments deserved a bit of a response in the meantime.

This raises a question which gets back to my original discussion of the "accuracy" of HEMA. Why do we need to bother with the historical manuals? Why can't we just do a bunch of sparring (LARP rules, SCA rules, HEMA, Kendo, Olympic fencing, whatever) and see what works?

The problem is two-fold. The first part is that sparring (like any training method) is a simulation which differs in various ways, large or small, from a real fight. The second is that actual sword fighting with real swords is pretty much gone from the world. Armies don't use swords on the battlefield. Gentlemen don't decide questions of honor by dueling with real swords. Sometimes in societies where machetes are common workplace tools, you'll find them used for assaults or murders, but not so much for regular dueling.

If you look at other aspects of fighting or martial arts, we have a lot more to go on.

Want to know how grappling works, under specific rulesets or in a street fight or in law enforcement or in a number of other scenarios? We have millions of people doing some sort of grappling every day and we have tons of data on how it plays out under different circumstances.

Want to know how to win a fist fight? We have countless hours of video with people getting knocked out by punches in boxing matches, karate matches, Muay Thai matches, MMA matches, street fights, bar fights, you name it. We can compare our training and our sparring to how those fights play out and even try it out for ourselves if we like.

Want to know how to win a full-contact stick fight, the sort where you may need to knock out or disable an opponent? That gets trickier and more dangerous. The Dog Brothers are probably the gold standard for that sort of training (although they aren't the only ones who do it). They don't spend the majority of their training in full-contact matches, but they do have them as a reality check for the rest of their training. They try to avoid permanent injury, but fighters do get knocked out or temporarily disabled. I'd say their experience gives a reasonably realistic picture of how actual stick fighting between skilled combatants can play out.

When it comes to swords, we just don't have that kind of first hand data. Swords are not sticks. Being able to tag your sparring partner first with a boffer weapon or a foil or a shinai or a feder (the most common form of steel training weapon in HEMA) does not necessarily translate into surviving a fight to the death between opponents with sharp swords. So we try to validate our sparring experiences against the historical record and our cutting practice and hope that by putting it all together we can have some approximation of the reality.

I have indeed been to Pennsic a number of times and have fought multiple times in the field battles, the woods battles, and the bridge battles. I've also participated in group melees at smaller events.

I do agree that one of the most valuable insights experience in the SCA brings to understanding medieval warfare is grokking the difference between one-on-one dueling and fights between mass formations. It's not so much that SCA mass melees are all that accurate in the exact specifics of historical battlefield formation fighting. (They're not, overall, although I'm sure there are some details which might match reality.) It's more just understanding that group fighting is different from individual fighting. Being able to maintain a tight formation, moving in sync with your comrades and protecting them as they protect you, is key. The clever evasive footwork you might rely on in an individual duel is no longer relevant.

For the record, most HEMA practitioners are working from sources which are focused on individual or small-scale combat rather than full-scale army battlefield tactics. I believe there are some extant treatises which address formation battlefield tactics, but we don't have the numbers to practice marching around in pike squares. Maybe at some point in the future we'll have large groups which will explore that sort of scenario.

While I respect what you chose to train for your sword fighting, I also have confidence that what I do with Larping also trains me on how to swing a blade. Most of the techniques we use are from HEMA, Fencing, Kendo, FMA, etc. because we have Nerds that are instructors in these arts, giving tips and teaching classes.

Larping is usually a good start for Nerds who can't afford full armor (or don't want to spend that kinda cash). Pennsic looks super fun. We have a BJJ Brown belt who runs his own gym and he's into that full armor combat; with classes for it at his gym; pretty cool.

But I see what you're saying. I'm glad you enjoy Amtguard; they're a lighter contact than Dagorhir (which you should check out).......... Dagorhir allows you to hit at full power and you can grapple. As a BJJ BB, you should easily whoop them w/o hurting anyone.

 

[jayoliver00]

Taking offense at statements which were not intended to give offense and then, when corrected on your misunderstanding you get pissy, now complaining that you are being told how to feel. You're holding on to it like it's the last life-boat on the Titanic and frankly, it got old and boring a long time ago.

He admitted that he did tak a shot at Larping, so you're wrong.

Good thing I held onto it, just like you are; yet not complaining like you.

 

[jayoliver00]

Funnily enough people dont let you do shield and spear because its not fair or fun. HEMA tends to like longsword and sword a lot, despite the previlence of spears etc. (probbly romanticism behind swords honestly)

Also, another thing i remmebered a re enactment group could devise a game for free sparring for safety reasons in more free combat demos, so it looks more realstic and accounts for the lack of safett barriers. I was looking into regia anlorium and they apaprntly have a game they devised for combat demos, basically one hit and your dead and to avoid certain places due to lack of armour (given they would be wearing peorid armour and using just blunted real weapons) they also do media work when hired, so i imagine the more closed off and scripted fights they can make more realstic just a event open to the public and is "freer" in who can win has a diffrent concern for this persons going to win, how do you make it flashy.

Here's a cool video of HEMA vs. LARP.

The HEMA guy is seriously good and is well known for his Youtube channel; despite being quite overweight and dressed up like King Louis VIII.

The LARPER is younger, in much better shape and is a Muay Thai fighter.

 

[jayoliver00]

True on all points. Which rather makes my point for me.

What's that? I forget.

 

[jayoliver00]

Which is not all Larpers. Which is the point that was made initially.

It took a while though, right. I'm so glad I stayed on point

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He admitted that he did tak a shot at Larping, so you're wrong.

Assuming that the "he" you mention is me, are you saying that I "took a shot at Larping" in the sense of having tried it (correct) or that I "took a shot at Larping" in the sense of bashing the sport (incorrect)?

Here's a cool video of HEMA vs. LARP.

The HEMA guy is seriously good and is well known for his Youtube channel; despite being quite overweight and dressed up like King Louis VIII.

The LARPER is younger, in much better shape and is a Muay Thai fighter.

I don't think that's really HEMA vs LARP. That's two LARPers, both of whom have additional martial arts experience (including HEMA) sparring under LARP rules.

Anyway, I finally have some time to sit down and type up some of my commentary regarding what aspects of LARP and other weapon-based combat sports might or might not carry over to application in real weapon fighting. This might get lengthy, so I'll try to break it up into individual posts for each activity. I'll save my thoughts on the potential pitfalls and limitations of standard HEMA training and competition for last. If I don't get it posted tonight, I'll make sure to get it up tomorrow.

Coming up first, LARPing ...

 

[jayoliver00]

I don't think that's really HEMA vs LARP. That's two LARPers, both of whom have additional martial arts experience (including HEMA) sparring under LARP rules.
.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's HEMA. He has a very big channel on YT. I can't remember his name though b/c I'm really not that much into this Medieval stuff ....I'm like at Nerd Level 5 or something. These dudes get all dressed up and everything.