The "accuracy" of HEMA

[lklawson]

That you can use a weapon or implement doesn't mean you're using it in an historically accurate way, which is what Tony was referring to as accuracy.

I disagree.

Based on what? You already said that you don't study HEMA. How would you know if what you're doing is historically accurate or not? Maybe it is but maybe it isn't

While yes, he does say that HEMA is trying to replicate Historical Euro techniques; he's also said,

"Second, we want to develop actual functional skill",

Are you assuming that the two are mutually exclusive?

"So if we are studying a sword art then we would want to be able to effectively defend ourselves with a sword if we were attacked by an opponent who was also wielding a sword."

He's still implying that LARPING does not offer such legit sword techniques, skills nor would they be effective if attacked by swordsmen.

You seem to be the only one who thinks this.

Peace favor your word,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It seems like LARPING has gotten a bad rap from that "fireball, fireball" nerd video a long time ago. So maybe he hasn't been doing HEMA long enough to know that there's a ton of overlap, like the other guy mentioned with SCA. I know of LARPING groups such as Belgarath, Darkon, Amtgard and Dagorhir; and all of them are dominantly about sword fighting. 50% of these Nerds are pretty athletic and most of them take their skills seriously.

I've been in the community for decades, since it was just as often called WMA as it was HEMA. For the most part we don't care.

 

[lklawson]

I think there's some role play involved in a lot of martial arts. More in some than others. If you wear a costume that is form over function, you're playacting at least a little. Doesn't mean you can't do some stuff, but it suggests we should be self aware and not elitist about LARPing.

When I practice Judo, for some reason, I use japanese terminology for techniques and equipment, despite the fact that I don't speak japanese or have any need for it in my normal life.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Deleted member 39746]

LARPing can be a place to work on and develop skills, when done among folks who work to seriously develop skills for valid application (rather than just for show and fun looks). Not all LARPers take that approach.

Seems more focuses based, some are for learning some are for fun. and some are in the middile. (i use fun to mean entertaiment, as somehing can be really bad but still entertaining) You can probbly get more fun out of something if your job doesnt hang in the balance honestly. (none of this is to mean you cant learn in a fun based one or have fun in a learning based one)

It's more than just that. What you wear affects how you have to fight just like terrain. There's a reason that footwork looks different between arts that evolved for indoor use and those that were developed in mountainous areas or rice patties.

You want to really know how a 18th Century smallsword fencer fought, then you need to wear the same sort of shoes he wears, not modern sneakers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Reenactings whole thing is living hisotry and giving accurate portrayals of life and material culture for the peroid. Well, as accurate as you can get.

You can exctract HEMA to just the martial arts side of things for the peroid. But if you do a combat demosntration for re enacting, you generally need to wear thinsg appriate for the peroid and fight appriately, or else its not really meeting the objectives of Re enacting.

although some things blur the lines like i think SCA is a weird LARP, Re enacting HEMA thing. and some HEMA clubs could take it to re enacting levels and some re enacting clubs could be closer called HEMA.

There are lots of cross over and lines here, and people dont like to use some words to describe some things or they have a bad reputation.

 

[jks9199]

I disagree.

He said, "rather than something we just dream up from our imagination", lol this is kind of underhanded....around 6 on scale of 0-10.

"Second, we want to develop actual functional skill", this is blatantly 9/10, daayum; basically implying that LARPERs have no "actual functional skill".

"So if we are studying a sword art then we would want to be able to effectively defend ourselves with a sword if we were attacked by an opponent who was also wielding a sword." ....I mean c'mon, how else would I interpret this? 9/10 on the underhanded meter



LARPING's main goal is to cut, stab, or club the other guy into a make-believe death; no different than HEMA's sparring with fake weapons.



So now you're talking about FORMS, just like Kung-Fu forms vs. Street/Prison Boxing Mike Tyson before he was formally trained by D'Amata. Tyson was around 14 w/no training, just lots of fights & robberies. How would the average Kung-Fu 14 y/o strip mall Kung-Fu dojo kid fare against him?

Similar w/myself; I have no formal training, just lots of LARPING. I bet I'll beat a lot of HEMA people at the 3 year training level.




Short answer would be, "OK"; we can also hard stop after losing an arm should we spar.

I've not said one is better than the other, nor have I one is "right" -- both have valid roles. If you want to role-play a fictional sort of Middle Ages/Rennaisance era world, or just bash at each other in costumes with variously replicated and safed weapons -- cool!! Have at it. Even if you want to incorporate magic or really Live Action Role Play it... Have a ball! If you want to study the existing manuals and treatices and other references and try to replicate the fighting techniques of historical dueling or battle weaponry, that's great too. Maybe I can try another comparison... I enjoy woodworking and cabinetry. Some folks do it with traditional methods, like spring pole lathes, hand powered tools, block and jack planes, etc. Others use the latest table saws, routers, and electric lathes. Both approaches can produce equivalent products like chairs or tables. Neither is better -- and both are fun.

 

[Buka]

I think there's some role play involved in a lot of martial arts. More in some than others. If you wear a costume that is form over function, you're playacting at least a little. Doesn't mean you can't do some stuff, but it suggests we should be self aware and not elitist about LARPing.

As an aside, one of my instructors, Billy Blanks, often referred to people's gi as a "costume".
I never asked why, I didn't care. Now I wish I had asked.

 

[Steve]

As an aside, one of my instructors, Billy Blanks, often referred to people's gi as a "costume".
I never asked why, I didn't care. Now I wish I had asked.

Billy Blanks gets it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As an aside, one of my instructors, Billy Blanks, often referred to people's gi as a "costume".
I never asked why, I didn't care. Now I wish I had asked.

The taebo dude?

 

[Buka]

The taebo dude?

The Tae-Bo dude. I remember when he came up with that name. It was originally called Karobics, but someone stole the name on him. When he came up with Tae-bo I told him it was the dumbest name I ever heard and wouldn't market well. (shows you what I know about anything)

A few years later when he sold the rights to the company for 110 million dollars - he reminded me of that.

 

[jayoliver00]

I've not said one is better than the other, nor have I one is "right" --

You said, "He's not saying that LARPERs can't have good technique or ideas".

I'm arguing, that he's exactly saying that; that LARPING techniques can't translate to real life stick & blade fighting.....w/o knowing that many LARPERS are also HEMA overlaps & vice versa. Then there are a bunch of LARPERS that train Asian weapon arts.

 

[jayoliver00]

Based on what? You already said that you don't study HEMA. How would you know if what you're doing is historically accurate or not? Maybe it is but maybe it isn't

I never claimed to be historically accurate w/my LARPING; otherwise show me where I did. I said that my LARPING skills can be used effectively in a real weapons fight vs. HEMA people.

Are you assuming that the two are mutually exclusive?

He's implying that LARPING has no "actual functional skill".

You seem to be the only one who thinks this.

Peace favor your word,
Kirk

What is he saying then?

 

[jayoliver00]

It's just like any other martial art. There are people who have decades of time in the art who can't actually fight. I have a SCA friend who absolutely tore up a HEMA tournament. Totally schooled them. I have a HEMA smallsword acquaintance who was totally dominated by an Olympic style sport fencer. Because you still have to spar it out and because athleticism and genetics are still highly important. I'm sure you've seen Nth degree "black belts" that couldn't defend against a street thug, right?

Look, I think you're getting twisted around the axle here. So you can fight. And you're upset that someone might think you're not using historically accurate methods? Why do you care?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Because this is a forum where ideas are usually exchanged & debated.

 

[jayoliver00]

Dude, you are reading way too much into it. Stop looking for ways to be insulted. That wasn't Tony's intent.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

So you're in charge of how I should feel?

 

[jayoliver00]

Again, nobody has said that nobody in LARPing takes it seriously, nor that none of them develop skills. There are some who do not (which is probably where LARPing gets the largely undeserved reputation).

You're reacting very strongly to what folks have said fairly blandly. Nobody is attacking you.

Then can you tell me what this all means then?

"What separates HEMA from LARPing is a couple of concerns. First, we want our practice to reflect the way historical practitioners of these systems actually fought, rather than something we just dream up from our imagination. Second, we want to develop actual functional skill. So if we are studying a sword art then we would want to be able to effectively defend ourselves with a sword if we were attacked by an opponent who was also wielding a sword."

 

[jayoliver00]

LARPing can be a place to work on and develop skills, when done among folks who work to seriously develop skills for valid application (rather than just for show and fun looks). Not all LARPers take that approach.

Neither do all SCA people who just play dressup only. Actually, it's most of the SCA people who don't. Like every year at Pennsic Wars where 10,000+ people show up and only about 500 show up in armor to fight. Same goes with the HEMA crowd, not a lot of them fight.

 

[Steve]

So you're in charge of how I should feel?

Just to throw this out there... you're going on and on telling us what Tony feels and thinks. Why are you in charge of how Tony feels?

Have you ever written or said something that didn't come out the way you meant it? Given that so many people are agreeing with you, are you able to let this go? We get it, and I think most (if not all) of us agree with you.

 

[lklawson]

I never claimed to be historically accurate w/my LARPING; otherwise show me where I did. I said that my LARPING skills can be used effectively in a real weapons fight vs. HEMA people.

gpseymour wrote: "That you can use a weapon or implement doesn't mean you're using it in an historically accurate way, which is what Tony was referring to as accuracy. "
you replied: "I disagree"
The point is that you don't have any basis in knowledge to disagree with his point because you don't know what is historically accurate or not. You know, unless you're just trying to start a fight.

He's implying that LARPING has no "actual functional skill".

Nope. For whatever reason you just decided to believe that.

What is he saying then?

He's trying to explain why he-and-or-others might do HEMA.

 

[lklawson]

Because this is a forum where ideas are usually exchanged & debated.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Steve]

Then can you tell me what this all means then?

"What separates HEMA from LARPing is a couple of concerns. First, we want our practice to reflect the way historical practitioners of these systems actually fought, rather than something we just dream up from our imagination. Second, we want to develop actual functional skill. So if we are studying a sword art then we would want to be able to effectively defend ourselves with a sword if we were attacked by an opponent who was also wielding a sword."

I've said similar things about TMAs vs sport arts. When I read this, I think it's about priorities. The priority for HEMA is historical accuracy. That doesn't mean that HEMA prohibits imagination. It simply means that, where there is a conflict between imagination and historical accuracy, HEMA will lean to the latter.

Conversely, LARPing is all about imagination. Role playing is in the acronym, for Pete's sake. Anyone who's been to an SCA event or medieval fair knows that there's a lot of imagination involved, and that historical accuracy is involved, but a secondary consideration.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Then can you tell me what this all means then?

"What separates HEMA from LARPing is a couple of concerns. First, we want our practice to reflect the way historical practitioners of these systems actually fought, rather than something we just dream up from our imagination. Second, we want to develop actual functional skill. So if we are studying a sword art then we would want to be able to effectively defend ourselves with a sword if we were attacked by an opponent who was also wielding a sword."

It means that for HEMA, developing that skill is a requirement to be considered HEMA. For LARPing, it's not a requirement. That does not mean that you cannot develop skill with LARP, or that certain LARP organizations don't develop functional skill. Just that you can still call what you do LARPing even if you don't develop that skill/train to develop the skill, while the same is not true for HEMA.