Thanks Taijiquan people

[Xue Sheng]

For helping me decide….

I mean no offense, really, I don’t, but I have been in taijiquan for over 30 years, and see things change a lot. And in those 30 years I trained Traditional Yang style and even taught traditional Yang style with permission from my Shifu, forms, push hands, weapons and the martial bits. And along the way I have also trained some Chen style, Wu style and Sun style.

Truth be known, for 10 years (50 to 60), due to surgeries and other health related issues training taijiquan was rather intermittent. And as I said before here on MT, after those 10 years, I realized I was just tired of it and forcing myself to do it, so I stopped for a while.

When I started thinking seriously about retirement, I remembered I had always thought I would teach taijiquan when I retired, so I started working on it seriously again. I realize most people only want the moving meditation bits, but that didn’t matter, so I made taijiquan my focus again. I got back into and I am still am involved with a push hands group, I have been going to seminars again, and it has all been enjoyable….. but it has been hard to find folks to train with, like I train or use to train with my teacher…they don’t want the martial bits and many do not understand push hands beyond thinking it is only a 2 person moving meditation. And furthermore, they don’t want to know

But after reading the current wave of taijiquan posts on MT and talking to some taijiquan folks off MT to be honest I am getting rather annoyed with the whole thing....it tends to get way too existential, even bordering on mythological at times. Even more so when I realize it sounds like me when I first started posting on MT about 18 years ago. I’m an old school martial artist type guy and simply do not feel I fit in taijiquan any longer, probably never really did, but my Yang Shifu had a lot of knowledge and skill and I learned a lot from him. Then this question popped into my head….. “Would I be training Taiji if I took teaching in the near future out of the equation?” And the answer came back…..No…which was a bit of a shock as well as rather liberating.

And I may have mentioned this on MT before. My Yang Shifu once said no two people do the form exactly the same because no two people have the same body. This got me thinking about the purported health benefits of taijiquan. In the last 30 years I have gotten very sick more than once, had cataracts, detached retina (twice), got hit by arthritis, had 2 meniscus repairs and one knee replacement, frankly was not seeing any of the heath benefits…. Eventually I came back to what my shifu said about no two people. I concluded, there are folks that gain a lot of health benefits from Taiji and there are those that do not and varying degrees in between…. Because no two people are exactly alike. But then this is only my opinion, I have not done any actual scientific study to back that up, and I don’t plan to either.

I have training Wing Chun again the last few months, but it has not been my focus, Taiji has been, But after that “no” answer I started focusing on it more and for some reason (other than addiction) I started working with Xingyiquan again too. And discovered that my Xingyiquan shifu (Hebei Style), whose school is closets to where I live, is talking about starting classes again, if my joints cooperate, I will go back. After the ‘no’ answer to the taijiquan question, it all fell into place and got real easy.

These days it seems I have the same opinion about taijiquan that I have had about Yoga for years…… people that train it are very peaceful, and I am glad there are such peaceful people in the world…. But I am simply not that peaceful.

And I found this to be more interesting to me; since putting taijiquan on the back burner and focusing more on Wing Chun and Xingyiquan…. I feel better, move better, and feel like I am getting back into old school martial arts again, and that is great IMO…. I currently have the feeling that taijiquan was taking me further from that the more I read and the more taijiquan people I talked to.

I will still do the taijiquan I know from time to time, Yang long form, Sun short form and the form I designed, but I am going to stop working on getting all my Yang forms back, since they are no longer primary or as frequently trained. If anything there will be focus more on applications and push hands. But Xingyiquan has its version of push hands, and Wing Chun has Chi Sau, so……

Will I teach taijiquan again…maybe…. Technically I am teaching push hands now….. and will possibly be teaching applications soon. But I am much happier and much more relaxed doing Wing Chun and Xingyiquan than I have been in a long time when I was focusing on Taijiquan.

So, enough form me…time to buy a Mook Yan Jong

 

[windwalker099]

So, enough form me

Luck in finding what you'er looking for.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Luck in finding what you'er looking for.

found it, thanks

 

[Same Trick]

Taijiquan or any other CMA are not a guarantee for health and long life. In the other thread we’re Yiquan is at focus, for example the controversial Zhao Daoxin although lived into his 80’s he was a cripple at the point he’d to walk and barely so with crutches and blind on one eye, his boxing brother Wang Shujin suffered high blood pressure, diabetes and got cancer

 

[Same Trick]

As for reasons taking up CMA// TJQ I think “wanting to become a teacher of it” would not be optional

 

[Xue Sheng]

Taijiquan or any other CMA are not a guarantee for health and long life. In the other thread we’re Yiquan is at focus, for example the controversial Zhao Daoxin although lived into his 80’s he was a cripple at the point he’d to walk and barely so with crutches and blind on one eye, his boxing brother Wang Shujin suffered high blood pressure, diabetes and got cancer

Thanks, but I know this. I have not been in Martial arts for over 50 years, Chinese martial arts for over 30 years, grew up in a medical family and married a doctor for nothing.....

As for reasons taking up CMA// TJQ I think “wanting to become a teacher of it” would not be optional

Well, I never said that..... what I did say was I taught, and I did, for my first shifu, but that was competition stuff, and for my second shifu (traditional Yang). (I was also giving permission to start a Xingyiquan group, but that is another story) I assisted my Yang Shifu and he also gave me permission to teach and I did for a time. And to clarify, it was WHILE I was teaching I had the thought..."I think I'd like to do this when I retire". And to nip this in the bud right here, it was not for money, I knew it would not pay much, it was for fun and to keep moving. I have a pension and investments to cover retirement rather well.

But then there was the 10 years of health issues and the return to taijiquan training after that. It was THEN I started to get really tired of taijiquan, toured of the forms, tired of the attitudes, tired if the self proclaimed master and "Grandmasters, (I find it hilarious when people lable themselves Sigong, Shigong). And I got tired of it both on and off the web. But that retirement thought, years before kept bringing me back. Once I dismissed that, I realized I had enough of tijiquan and some of those in it.

Over the years I have had students cringe when I explained an application, they asked about, had students walk out after yelling "I came here to learn taiji, NOT karate" after another student asked me about the martial arts of it, and basically all I said was "Yes it is technically a martial art" Had another guy get incredibly huffy and rather arrogant when I tried to correct his 2 person form because what he was doing was wrong and would get him hurt....his response, before leaving "I DO TAIJI, I DON'T DO MARTIAL ARTS" He was one of those, and I have come across a few on and of MT, who believed in the Wuxia of it, he would be invincible just because he did the form a few times a day..... and don't get me started on "Combat Taiji" someine takes something like Karate, combines it with 24 form and says they saves taijiquan. Seen a fe of those, what they teach is effective, but it is much more karate than taijiquan (even saw an Aikido mixed with taiji, that was rather close, but do dependant on the circle)

Now I know you can run into these types in any martial art, but I have not yet run into it in Xingyiquan, but then, there, they may be asked to prove it.... Wing Chun, I have seen the arrogance related to lineage, and I have seen folks claiming to be masters who most certainly were not..... but again, there they may asked to prove it around the wrong people, so they avoid them.

I have also known and trained with some pretty impressive rather skilled people over the years in may styles, not just CMA, and they have been very approachable, not at all arrogant, and had pretty good senses of humor, and they all had great stories. And most would not post on a web forum, some have, but they didn't stay long. And not one of them called themselves grandmaster, none were braggarts (well one bragged a bit), and none were arrogant, save one who will remane nameless (but he was a damn good fighter) and all of them were happy with being called Shifu or by thier first name....

I will end with one of the reasons my old school MA self REALLY likes Xingyiquan. I had a shifu who was going over Santi shi with the class.... he ended with, "if you have joint pain, tell me, I will need to correct your stance, but if you have muscle pain, shut up and stand I don't want to hear it".....

Thanks for stopping by

 

[windwalker099]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

I have come across a few on and of MT, who believed in the Wuxia of it

What some may believe, write about, are experiences for others.
Include me in the others

Frustration, a common experience in the practice of Taiji, even among its noted practitioners. The duration of practice or the reputation of one's teacher can suggest potential, they do not guarantee specific outcomes.

With long-term taiji practice to be able to switch, to an unrelated art that uses different dynamics for movement, suggest one may not have developed it enough. Similarly, it is often challenging for practitioners of other arts to adopt the to the specific movement dynamics of Taiji.

Having said this....for those who are able to make the switch..wish them luck...

 

[Xue Sheng]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"



What some may believe, write about, are experiences for others.
Include me in the others

Frustration, a common experience in the practice of Taiji, even among its noted practitioners. The duration of practice or the reputation of one's teacher can suggest potential, they do not guarantee specific outcomes.

With long-term taiji practice to be able to switch, to an unrelated art that uses different dynamics for movement, suggest one may not have developed it enough. Similarly, it is often challenging for practitioners of other arts to adopt the to the specific movement dynamics of Taiji.

Having said this....for those who are able to make the switch..wish them luck...

oooh Shakespeare...ok

"Get thee to a nunnery, go."
"'T'is neither here nor there."

Please stop... I'm really not impressed, so please stop trying to impress me...please go sell your wuxia elsewhere......thanks for stopping by

 

[jks9199]

There comes a time when we simply have to decide to do what's right for ourselves. Glad you've recognized that moment. So many never do...

 

[windwalker099]

There comes a time when we simply have to decide to do what's right for ourselves. Glad you've recognized that moment. So many never do...

Good insight.

In Taiji, what I've noted over the years, even among practitioners of many years, the achievement rate is low. By this, I mean achieving the level described in the writings about past masters. Even studying under a renowned teacher is no guarantee of success.

This issue historically noted among those teaching different lines of the "Yang" style, often the subject of many discussions online.

In person, these discussions can get heated, especially when practitioners believe they are adhering to the traditional methods, when pointed out by others they'er not.

Quite similar to the discussions on "Aiki" based methods in Aikido vs those thought not to be based on them.

 

[Appledog]

In a western fable, the moral is announced at the end of the story. In a Chinese fable, it is not. It is left unspoken. The real lesson thus being one has to think for oneself. When you are told for example, that no two people do the form differently because they have different bodies, well, is this the final answer? No, it is not. Actually, the fact that they do the form differently, well, the one who said this is admitting it is a problem! Yes, they have different bodies! But is this a good thing, or not? Actually we all have the same bones, hip bone, leg bone, foot bone, arm bone. So why is the form different? It is simply because they have different bodies. But the moral of this story was left unsaid. It's a problem. So then, what is being said is, the reason why they have different bodies.. And yet, it is not been said. Many things like this you must figure out for yourself and if you cannot then you have to ask.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In a western fable, the moral is announced at the end of the story. In a Chinese fable, it is not. It is left unspoken. The real lesson thus being one has to think for oneself. When you are told for example, that no two people do the form differently because they have different bodies, well, is this the final answer? No, it is not. Actually, the fact that they do the form differently, well, the one who said this is admitting it is a problem! Yes, they have different bodies! But is this a good thing, or not? Actually we all have the same bones, hip bone, leg bone, foot bone, arm bone. So why is the form different? It is simply because they have different bodies. But the moral of this story was left unsaid. It's a problem. So then, what is being said is, the reason why they have different bodies.. And yet, it is not been said. Many things like this you must figure out for yourself and if you cannot then you have to ask.

Not sure I follow what you are saying...but there is no need to explain, actually I would prefer it if you didn't

Look at the form of Yang Chengfu, Fu Zhongwen, Tung Ying Chieh, Tung Huling, Tung Kaiying are the forms exaclty the same? Look at Chen Xiaowang, Chen Xiaoxing, Chen Zhenglei...... do they all do the form exactly the same?

All have bones and joints, can you bring your knees together and then bring them to your chest? I can't, not without breaking my hips, my hips are slightly kicked back.

For the record, I trust my taijiquan shifu's words more than anyone in this thread. Student of Tung Ying Chieh, helped Tung Hu Ling open a school in Thailand, been training taijiquan and only taijiquan for over 70 years

 

[Xue Sheng]

I want to thank the taijiquan folk currently on MT for proving my point... Insinuating my personal experience and what I feel is wrong..... wow..... picking out things I didn't say as points of discussion..... like I said, I am sick and tired of the egos.......... hope you all have a great day..... please feel free to turn this thread of me simply announcing I am done with focusing on taijiquan to pump up your egos and debate my thoughts and feelings on the topic as incorrect..... enjoy the hubris...... have a nice day

 

[Appledog]

Not sure I follow what you are saying...but there is no need to explain, actually I would prefer it if you didn't

Why not? I was complementing you on "getting it" and thinking for yourself. Don't you enjoy talking to people?

For the record, I trust my taijiquan shifu's words more than anyone in this thread.

That means you are doing it properly

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why not? I was complementing you on "getting it" and thinking for yourself. Don't you enjoy talking to people?



That means you are doing it properly

thank you, my apologies

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"



What some may believe, write about, are experiences for others.
Include me in the others

Frustration, a common experience in the practice of Taiji, even among its noted practitioners. The duration of practice or the reputation of one's teacher can suggest potential, they do not guarantee specific outcomes.

With long-term taiji practice to be able to switch, to an unrelated art that uses different dynamics for movement, suggest one may not have developed it enough. Similarly, it is often challenging for practitioners of other arts to adopt the to the specific movement dynamics of Taiji.

Having said this....for those who are able to make the switch..wish them luck...

I disagree. You seem to say that integration of arts would indicate a lack of development in one or the other. That may be the experience for you but I began my training in Tai Chi Chuan and gung fu at the same time with the same instructors. Our system represents an integration of both arts. They are trained separately as definitively different thought, intention, and use. The end goal is to be able to switch between the two arts at any time, or use Tai Chi legs with Southern gung fu arms. This takes a very long time to access but provides a very clear understanding of the differences between the two, and how to make the most of either or both in a given situation. I would agree that it is a difficult process, not for everyone. I disagree that one obviates the use or training of another, or somehow indicates a lack of depth in practice or applications. James Wing Woo added some things from western boxing to his system long ago. That indicates growth, not lack of depth or understanding.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

since putting taijiquan on the back burner and focusing more on Wing Chun and Xingyiquan…. I feel better, move better, and feel like I am getting back into old school martial arts again, and that is great IMO….

I also don't like to train Taiji during my old age. When I throw a long fist punch, or Xing Yi Pi Quan, I feel I'm 20 years old again. I just don't get that young feeling from Taiji training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taijiquan or any other CMA are not a guarantee for health and long life.

Most people when they get old, they get hunchback.

In order to prevent this problem, when you are young, you need to develop a back bending habit. I'm surprise that the "back bending" is not part of the Taiji for health training.

 

[windwalker099]

I disagree. You seem to say that integration of arts would indicate a lack of development in one or the other.

My writing sucks....maybe it was not very clear.

Posting from my own experience,
respect all martial arts practices, even those I may not personally agree with.

Some use the term Wuxia (武俠), a genre of Chinese fiction, to characterize some of my experienced based post. Kind of amusing, the nature of the net.

My intent is not to promote any beliefs but to share interesting aspects on my path.
Everyone has their own journey, sharing mine in the spirit of fellow travelers having some tea

That may be the experience for you but I began my training in Tai Chi Chuan and gung fu at the same time with the same instructors. Our system represents an integration of both arts. They are trained separately as definitively different thought, intention, and use. The end goal is to be able to switch between the two arts at any time, or use Tai Chi legs with Southern gung fu arms.

The level of one's Taiji practice and interactions plays a significant role, in what they may feel is taiji or not.
Historically, many Taiji teachers, including my own, have advised against practicing other martial arts or combining them with Taiji.

Despite knowing this I did experimented with integrating some Tibetan White Crane techniques into my Taiji practice, took about five years of development and testing. Eventually, concluding that it was not feasible, maybe the topic of another thread.

As for teaching Taiji as an adjunct to other practices, I also did this until I met my last Taiji teacher and decided to focus solely on Taiji.

A friend of mine, experienced in 太极螳螂拳 (Tài Jí Táng Láng Quán) among other CMA arts, once shared an interesting insight. His teacher was quite famous in San Francisco.

When I asked him why he practiced with me despite having such a renowned teacher, he responded, "My teacher teaches 'Taiji,' you know Taiji."

Commented on this thread feeling a sense of understanding with some of the frustrations posted,
having had many of them myself..In hindsight .maybe a mistake in posting..

For myself it would not be possible to switch back, to many changes to undo..

For others undertaking the path,,,
sincerely wish them luck...
finding something that fits what they'er looking for.

 

[Appledog]

"I'm surprise that the "back bending" is not part of the Taiji for health" - Kung Fu Wang

When a proper barber cuts your hair, he will mark your hair in subtle ways so he knows if you have been to a different barber. Also, there are some marks which are made so that if you try to leave without paying other barbers will know you did not pay for your haircut. There are some other things they do, which are not commonly known. Such as marking your hair to know how many times you have been to them in a row, and so forth. All of these things are unknown even to many barbers, who are not interested in barbering but just turning a quick buck as a hairstylist. To those in the know, those people are regarded as "tourists" at bests and "grifters" at worst.

But there will always be a tradition of barbering, and if you are interested in it, you too can learn these wonderful things. But if you think you can just go to a hairstylist and learn to cut hair and then make up some stylish tricks or pick up a few old hands from a master barber, you may find that this does not work. Do not worry, there is a saying; the best time to learn traditional barbery is when you are young. But the next best time is today. You can do it, all you need is a dream