Thanks Taijiquan people

[Same Trick]

I mean the difference between using Tai Chi principles vs Gung fu. I guess it might be meaningless to some people. It has to do with stepping and weight/root and movement based on posture. Using Soft and hard concepts at the same time with the different parts of the body. Being able to switch on the fly. In short, a coordination between concepts. Square in the circle and circle in the square. Iron wrapped in silk and silk wrapped in iron. Does that make sense to you? Like the diagram on my flyer.

In taiji it’s said- “ if one part moves all parts move” , so then if there are “taiji legs” there inevitable must be Taiji hands, one would more accurately mention it as “Taiji body”
So if one cut off the limbs how can they separately still be taiji ?

It’s also said in TJQ - “from feet through legs, through hips and waist, through shoulders and arms out to the fingers”.
Isn’t this also true in southern CMA’s ?
So why bother with complicated cut and paste when one already have a body ready to work with ?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In taiji it’s said- “ if one part moves all parts move” , so then if there are “taiji legs” there inevitable must be Taiji hands, one would more accurately mention it as “Taiji body”
So if one cut off the limbs how can they separately still be taiji ?

It’s also said in TJQ - “from feet through legs, through hips and waist, through shoulders and arms out to the fingers”.
Isn’t this also true in southern CMA’s ?
So why bother with complicated cut and paste when one already have a body ready to work with ?

Yes, it’s bottom moves the top, back moves front, inside moves outside. Yes same in Southern gung fu. You may see it in a different light. As I said, it may be meaningless to some. I am not here to convince anyone of anything related to Wing Woo Gar, I am merely describing the ultimate goal of the system. You don’t move the same way in Tai Chi Chuan as in Southern Gung fu. Steps, positioning, stance, hand form, hip turn vs waist turn, approach and entries etc. are very different in Tai Chi Chuan vs Southern Gung fu, compare Yang long form with Hung Gar for instance, they are practiced in very different ways, with different but associated goals. You don’t cut off limbs, you don’t cut and paste, you integrate. Whole body moves as one, but each part does their separate job in harmony with the rest. In Tai Chi we turn the hip, in gung fu we turn the waist. In both we generate power from the bottom up. In Tai Chi we strive for no force, in gung fu we strive to increase force, in Tai Chi we try to yield, in gung fu we try to penetrate. Think of push hands energy vs something like Sarm Bo Jin ( three arrow step ). Taking either and both in their respective extremes, they are opposites and yet they can be synergistic in their relationship to each other and how they can be used in tandem or separately.

 

[windwalker099]

Some thoughts,,,

This is why I believe Taiji has been modified to suit for old people. 含胸拔背 sink the chest and pluck the back is not OK for old people with hunchback. It's never OK for young people when their bodies are still growing.

The concept of "sinking the chest and expanding the back" 含胸拔背 (Hán Xiōng Bá Bèi) . Used for various reasons should be done mindfully rather than forcefully. Many people tend to have a convex chest and concave back due to poor posture.

In Taiji, understanding and utilizing the position of the chest and back is crucial for maintaining one's center and balance. Different styles of CMA develop specific characteristics based on the combative principles they use, with varying impacts on health.

The focus on combative principles rather than on health benefits.

In taiji it’s said- “ if one part moves all parts move” , so then if there are “taiji legs” there inevitable must be Taiji hands, one would more accurately mention it as “Taiji body”

Consider Taiji as spherical, "all parts move "
viewing the whole body as the hand means that every point on the body can issue or receive force, much like a ball.

part of this "Pan Dao Bi" (盤道臂) refers to a coiling action that stores energy, which can then be released explosively.
This method contrasts with techniques for example "boxing" that focus on imparting force through a single point

It’s also said in TJQ - “from feet through legs, through hips and waist, through shoulders and arms out to the fingers”.

We use this passage to mean "control" of the "energy" developed through the coiling action. "

Not to generate the force.
Arts like boxing generate force through linear and rotational body movements, focusing on the kinetic chain from the feet through the hips and shoulders to the fists. Most CMA uses a different method.

Isn’t this also true in southern CMA’s ?

Not just southern CMA's, taiji can be very to little different from most CMA depending on depth and level of practice.

So why bother with complicated cut and paste when one already have a body ready to work with ?

Good question....

One addressed in a different feeling that taiji had no real foot work...
Compared to Tibetan White Crane. The foot work itself was key in making the movements work...giving an understanding of distance and angles before contact is made. As mentioned attempted to combine what I felt the key points of each, with taiji, as the bias..

Didn't work out...sharing some of thought used in doing so...
TWC uses foot work patterns to move in and out of the circle

In the old days practiced on stumps or poles.

Plum Flower foot work (Mui Fa Bo)

Part of the training similar to the strategies used in "围棋" (Wéiqí) controlling space by "influence," stones are placed in strategic positions to control larger areas of the board without directly occupying them...

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is no such thing as too much bacon.

says a bacon addict

 

[Same Trick]

Other methods are:

- Swing both arms up and behind the ears.
- Swing both arms cross behind the head.
- Put both arms behind your back and cross.
- ...

People should add these into their daily warm up sequence.

The idea is to pull your shoulders back and be able to hold a pencil with your back muscle. This training is totally the opposite of the Taiji sink the chest and pluck the back - 含胸拔背.

This is why I believe Taiji has been modified to suit for old people. 含胸拔背 sink the chest and pluck the back is not OK for old people with hunchback. It's never OK for young people when their bodies are still growing.

Can you see the hunchback potential there?

View attachment 32261

This is the correct posture.

View attachment 32262
-

Taiji application in picture combination

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Some thoughts,,,




The concept of "sinking the chest and expanding the back" 含胸拔背 (Hán Xiōng Bá Bèi) . Used for various reasons should be done mindfully rather than forcefully. Many people tend to have a convex chest and concave back due to poor posture.

In Taiji, understanding and utilizing the position of the chest and back is crucial for maintaining one's center and balance. Different styles of CMA develop specific characteristics based on the combative principles they use, with varying impacts on health.

The focus on combative principles rather than on health benefits.



Consider Taiji as spherical, "all parts move "
viewing the whole body as the hand means that every point on the body can issue or receive force, much like a ball.

part of this "Pan Dao Bi" (盤道臂) refers to a coiling action that stores energy, which can then be released explosively.
This method contrasts with techniques for example "boxing" that focus on imparting force through a single point


We use this passage to mean "control" of the "energy" developed through the coiling action. "

Not to generate the force.
Arts like boxing generate force through linear and rotational body movements, focusing on the kinetic chain from the feet through the hips and shoulders to the fists. Most CMA uses a different method.





Not just southern CMA's, taiji can be very to little different from most CMA depending on depth and level of practice.



Good question....

One addressed in a different feeling that taiji had no real foot work...
Compared to Tibetan White Crane. The foot work itself was key in making the movements work...giving an understanding of distance and angles before contact is made. As mentioned attempted to combine what I felt the key points of each, with taiji, as the bias..

Didn't work out...sharing some of thought used in doing so...
TWC uses foot work patterns to move in and out of the circle

In the old days practiced on stumps or poles.

Plum Flower foot work (Mui Fa Bo)

Part of the training similar to the strategies used in "围棋" (Wéiqí) controlling space by "influence," stones are placed in strategic positions to control larger areas of the board without directly occupying them...

You may answer this in some ways better than I can explain it. Pursuant to that, I wonder about your experience with trying to integrate TWC with TCC, which facets did or did not work, and why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The focus on combative principles rather than on health benefits.

Of course, if you have "sinking chest and expanding back", you can cover your center better in combat. But it's not good for health.

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA style that you train?" Because if you only train Taiji, you may not notice the "sinking chest and expanding back" issue that doesn't exist in other MA systems.

 

[windwalker099]

I wonder about your experience with trying to integrate TWC with TCC, which facets did or did not work, and why?

Might better to address this in another thread..
Read your posting found it interesting...

Taking either and both in their respective extremes, they are opposites and yet they can be synergistic in their relationship to each other and how they can be used in tandem or separately.

What I have found in "my" path the "synergistic relationship" depends the level and depth of taiji practiced, something you outlined as "extremes" if my understanding of this is correct.

There are names for levels of practice that some use

明勁 (míng jìn) Obvious Power
暗勁 (àn jìn) Hidden Power
化勁 (huà jìn) Transforming Power

While the practice of taiji can improve or give a different perspective to most CMA as practiced.

There comes a point where it's too different.
The way and how the body functions in developing force is opposite.
So much so, I've found it not be very productive to show or talk about it much,
although it is the main focus of my practice.

 

[Appledog]

x

The idea is to pull your shoulders back and be able to hold a pencil with your back muscle. This training is totally the opposite of the Taiji sink the chest and pluck the back - 含胸拔背.

This is why I believe Taiji has been modified to suit for old people. 含胸拔背 sink the chest and pluck the back is not OK for old people with hunchback. It's never OK for young people when their bodies are still growing.

You are right! A misunderstanding has been allowed to prevail among many in the tai chi community.

 

[Same Trick]

Of course, if you have "sinking chest and expanding back", you can cover your center better in combat. But it's not good for health.

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA style that you train?" Because if you only train Taiji, you may not notice the "sinking chest and expanding back" issue that doesn't exist in other MA systems.

I don’t really know

Of course, if you have "sinking chest and expanding back", you can cover your center better in combat. But it's not good for health.

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA style that you train?" Because if you only train Taiji, you may not notice the "sinking chest and expanding back" issue that doesn't exist in other MA systems.

Southern CMA such as baihequan and yong chun seem to have similar chest/back thought ?

 

[windwalker099]

Of course, if you have "sinking chest and expanding back", you can cover your center better in combat. But it's not good for health.

For me "healthy" not really consideration over functionality.

Some things better for function, not very healthy to do in the long run.
Health not really a design consideration.

Taiji often promoted for health, a departure from. what it became famous for.

The training can quite severe at times, depending on level and purpose of the practice..

含胸拔背 (Hán Xiōng Bá Bèi)

explained in this video

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA style that you train?" Because if you only train Taiji, you may not notice the "sinking chest and expanding back" issue that doesn't exist in other MA systems.

Other systems do different things to enable functions they feel advantageous according to their methods.


This teacher covers, hollowing the chest.
含胸拔背 (Hán Xiōng Bá Bèi) a key concept in body integration

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Some thoughts,,,




The concept of "sinking the chest and expanding the back" 含胸拔背 (Hán Xiōng Bá Bèi) . Used for various reasons should be done mindfully rather than forcefully. Many people tend to have a convex chest and concave back due to poor posture.

In Taiji, understanding and utilizing the position of the chest and back is crucial for maintaining one's center and balance. Different styles of CMA develop specific characteristics based on the combative principles they use, with varying impacts on health.

The focus on combative principles rather than on health benefits.



Consider Taiji as spherical, "all parts move "
viewing the whole body as the hand means that every point on the body can issue or receive force, much like a ball.

part of this "Pan Dao Bi" (盤道臂) refers to a coiling action that stores energy, which can then be released explosively.
This method contrasts with techniques for example "boxing" that focus on imparting force through a single point


We use this passage to mean "control" of the "energy" developed through the coiling action. "

Not to generate the force.
Arts like boxing generate force through linear and rotational body movements, focusing on the kinetic chain from the feet through the hips and shoulders to the fists. Most CMA uses a different method.





Not just southern CMA's, taiji can be very to little different from most CMA depending on depth and level of practice.



Good question....

One addressed in a different feeling that taiji had no real foot work...
Compared to Tibetan White Crane. The foot work itself was key in making the movements work...giving an understanding of distance and angles before contact is made. As mentioned attempted to combine what I felt the key points of each, with taiji, as the bias..

Didn't work out...sharing some of thought used in doing so...
TWC uses foot work patterns to move in and out of the circle

In the old days practiced on stumps or poles.

Plum Flower foot work (Mui Fa Bo)

Part of the training similar to the strategies used in "围棋" (Wéiqí) controlling space by "influence," stones are placed in strategic positions to control larger areas of the board without directly occupying them...

I am a person who completely submitted to the training right away. I did not question why for many years, I just listened and applied myself. When sometimes I would ask the na

Might better to address this in another thread..
Read your posting found it interesting...




What I have found in "my" path the "synergistic relationship" depends the level and depth of taiji practiced, something you outlined as "extremes" if my understanding of this is correct.

There are names for levels of practice that some use

明勁 (míng jìn) Obvious Power
暗勁 (àn jìn) Hidden Power
化勁 (huà jìn) Transforming Power

While the practice of taiji can improve or give a different perspective to most CMA as practiced.

There comes a point where it's too different.
The way and how the body functions in developing force is opposite.
So much so, I've found it not be very productive to show or talk about it much,
although it is the main focus of my practice.

exactly my experience and the focus of my practice as well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don’t really know

Southern CMA such as baihequan and yong chun seem to have similar chest/back thought ?

As to the chest/back I think of this a “feeling” rather than a visible postural affectation.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Might better to address this in another thread..
Read your posting found it interesting...




What I have found in "my" path the "synergistic relationship" depends the level and depth of taiji practiced, something you outlined as "extremes" if my understanding of this is correct.

There are names for levels of practice that some use

明勁 (míng jìn) Obvious Power
暗勁 (àn jìn) Hidden Power
化勁 (huà jìn) Transforming Power

While the practice of taiji can improve or give a different perspective to most CMA as practiced.

There comes a point where it's too different.
The way and how the body functions in developing force is opposite.
So much so, I've found it not be very productive to show or talk about it much,
although it is the main focus of my practice.

I would gauge my level of tai chi ability as very low in general. I am a very tough critic in general. It’s all low quality until it is not. I hope to live a long life to make my teachers proud someday, but it won’t be soon.

 

[Same Trick]

Ok so I just googled a question and got a figure of about 400 million people around the world who are TJQ enthusiasts.
But I can’t get a figure on how many of them/(us) have developed a hunchback from the practice, anyone know ?
All I know is that I haven’t met any Taiji devotee with a hunchback, I’ve met and seen quite a few.

 

[windwalker099]

I would gauge my level of tai chi ability as very low in general. I am a very tough critic in general. It’s all low quality until it is not. I hope to live a long life to make my teachers proud someday, but it won’t be soon.

Consider myself a practitioner

Funny story

My teacher once told me "you'll never get it in this lifetime." through a translator.
I looked at him and said "that's ok, in the next I will find you and practice harder."

he laughed...good times...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t really know

Southern CMA such as baihequan and yong chun seem to have similar chest/back thought ?

It doesn't exist in the northern CMA except Taiji.

Old Chinese MA saying said, "The northern CMA systems don't know how to close. The southern CMA systems don't know how to open."

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Consider myself a practitioner

Funny story

My teacher once told me "you'll never get it in this lifetime." through a translator.
I looked at him and said "that's ok, in the next I will find you and practice harder."

he laughed...good times...

This is good. Once during the form at Sifu Woo’s gym, he said to a lady next to me,” You know Mr. Kegel? We just lost him.” It’s good to attempt moving the mountain with a spoon.

 

[Same Trick]

It doesn't exist in the northern CMA except Taiji.

Dai shi xinyiquan ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dai shi xinyiquan ?

I don't see any "sinking chest and expanding back" in his form.