Terry Shiavo and the Sanctity of Life...

[Kane]

What about what she wants? Is that important?

There is no hard evidense that she wanted to die if she was in this situation. A comment durring a movie doesn't really count, because people tend to comment sometimes on what is opposite to their beliefs. Therefore it is unknown, and in this uncertianty until is there is real proof on whether Terry really wanted to die, she should live.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Therefore it is unknown, and in this uncertianty until is there is real proof on whether Terry really wanted to die, she should live.

Terry's legal guardian is convinced that she really wanted to die, as has been repeatedly backed up by legal decision after legal decision.

Moreover, Terry is dead. D-e-a-d. Nerve reflex smiles don't make you likely to recover. When over twenty neurologists and neurosurgeons say that you are dead, removing the feeding tube only serves to end your macabre psuedo-existence, and end the opporunity for politicians to grand-stand on your eerily smiling cadaver.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In an unexpected development, we're now at TWENTY-FIVE court decisions, yes folks, that's 25. A Florida judge rejected a request for a decree to reinsert the feeding tube, brought on the grounds that Mr. Schiavo had abused his wife--and he rejected the request on the grounds that there was no evidence for it.

YAY! USA all the WAY!!!

Way to go, Florida! We're now working on 26 court cases, yes, 26.

Among other things, what's revolting here is the utter lack of reason and evidence...amazing we haven't declared war on the hospice where Mrs. Schiavo is, on account of their possession of WMDs.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Among other things, what's revolting here is the utter lack of reason and evidence...amazing we haven't declared war on the hospice where Mrs. Schiavo is, on account of their possession of WMDs.

You probably thought you were kidding.

However, officials in Florida aren't.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/news/feeds/0323schiavo.html

"State officials say they are considering removing Terri Schiavo from the hospice, by force if necessary, despite numerous court orders upholding the removal of the artificial nutrition tube that has kept her alive for 15 years."

 

[rmcrobertson]

It's always worse than I think it is.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Wonder if it'll be the same team that extracted Elian Gonzalez. They might have to bring out the big guns on this one, though...all those elderly and handicapped people can put up a fight with their walkers.

But no, the INS are a federal branch of government, so this'd be out of their jurisdiction. Oh wait, nevermind.....

 

[Melissa426]

Another 2 cents:

"In Washington, you can do anything, if you're popular." -- from the movie G.I. Jane.

I believe that the politicans who are pushing this issue, for the purpose of gaining popularity points from the extreme religious right, will experience a serious backlash, especially when they realize that the vast majority of Americans feel the politicans should have not meddled.

I was talking to a nurse friend of mine yesterday, who is devoted to Catholicism, (even though she uses 3 different types of birth control not including rhythm). I expected her to weigh in with the parents; she actually expressed anger at them for their cruel treatment of their daughter. Her quote "nobody better ever release a video tape of me to the public if I am in that state looking like that, I don't care what their intentions." She's on a living will crusade, now.


Peace,
Melissa

 

[Flatlander]

Really, how popular does the American administration need to be with the "religious right"? Aren't they already pretty popular?

Regarding potential backlash, interesting insight, Melissa. Unfortunately, this is coming up so early in the term that by the time the next election comes around, everyone who's upset with this now will have forgotten about it. Except, of course, the good people here.

 

[loki09789]

Another 2 cents:

"In Washington, you can do anything, if you're popular." -- from the movie G.I. Jane.

I believe that the politicans who are pushing this issue, for the purpose of gaining popularity points from the extreme religious right, will experience a serious backlash, especially when they realize that the vast majority of Americans feel the politicans should have not meddled.

I was talking to a nurse friend of mine yesterday, who is devoted to Catholicism, (even though she uses 3 different types of birth control not including rhythm). I expected her to weigh in with the parents; she actually expressed anger at them for their cruel treatment of their daughter. Her quote "nobody better ever release a video tape of me to the public if I am in that state looking like that, I don't care what their intentions." She's on a living will crusade, now.


Peace,
Melissa

Interesting insight on the perspective of someone who is practicing a faith AND a trained medical professional. THe issue of the 'sanctity of life' does not have to be interpreted as "Never pull the plug" when the person is no longer really 'living' because they are braindead. I still have not read/heard any explanation from 'lifers' or 'choicers' about what her current condition (mentally) is.

I heard a Priest of all people defend the 'anti-capital punishment' stance NOT from the position of life/sanctity but from the Punitive/living with the consequences stance.....if this is the condition of her life, isn't it more cruel than letting her slip away, by any means.

"Sanctity of Life" in every case should be weighed against the issues of quality of life and reasonability of recovery...just as if you had to weigh the reasonability of the threat you face when you use deadly force.

Not an easy situation all around.

My Mother in Law is a retired/former nurse (RN) and a MILITANT/political activist (Libertarianish in stance) and even she is saying, given the situation, pulling the plug/feeding tube is the truly 'humane' thing in the long run for all involved.

 

[Brother John]

You know it is really simple solution for the husband if he doesn't want to pay for his wife. Terry's family has explained that they will take care of the expenses so why doesn't the husband just get a divorce instead of kill her? He can't afford the treatment, give me a break. He has alternatives.

Not being able to afford the expensive and extensive efforts to keep Terry's shell (which she's vacated) breathing is the LEAST of the considerations, and really....it's not one that the husband has brought up, but it's been brought up elsewhere by those who are trying to claim that his following through with his late wife's expressed will is actually merely motivated by money. Seems he (Robert) brought it up to make a point about the case in Texas that Pres. Bush treated differently when he was Gov. Bush.

Like I said before, the husband DID have over $700,000 from the court case concerning the medication that lead to Terry's initial heart attack. He's spent ALL of it and a LOT more on Terry's care. Doesn't sound like he's squeemish about paying at all.

YOU aren't in this situation. When caring long term for a person in a vegetative state....YOU must go on with the rest of your life. You still have to pay your rent/mortgage. You still have to pay the dentist, eat, pay for your car. Life doesn't cut you slack (generally) just becuase you have this ENORMOUS, but needed, expense. The cost just to have someone in a hospital bed for a week would set MOST middle income people back in their family budget for some time!!! I can't imagine a decade and a half!!!
Like it or not, it IS a consideration. Not the primary one. Maybe not even in the top ten, but it is in there.

BUT: In the end, it's not even the point.
She said she didn't want to be kept alive in such a case.
Told her husband, who by all legal presedence SHOULD have the say so in this case. The parents shouldn't even have a claim, legally. A voice? SURE!! Say so? No.
But now, this way things have always been has been violated, the whole ordeal turned into a national, or greater, scandal and debate by people who only have a partial view and a Huge emotional reaction.
IT IS A SHAME, ALL of it!

BTW: This talk of "Why not take out other people"...like mere invalids or mentally handicapt or others...is irrelevent and SICK!!!!

Your Brother
John
PS: Kane, I've not just looked into a few articles. I've really researched it because I was/am really concerned about the principles at play and the presedents being set. Still am. I have researched it and continue to research it.
What have you done? You say you've done the same. NEITHER of us are THERE, neither are IN this horrid situation. We are observers and we bring to it our own preconcieved notions. We must challenge these biases and notions in light of FACT, not emotional sentiment.
If your view never changes, check your lens.

 

[Brother John]

"Flatlander" asked: Really, how popular does the American administration need to be with the "religious right"? Aren't they already pretty popular?

Though I realize I'm aslo speaking of myself, these "Religious Right politicians" played a Role in order to gain the popular election of the "religious right" voters...
now they are having to play the part out.

Makes me sad.

Your Brother
John

 

[ginshun]

I can't even listen to talk radio anymore, because this is ALL they talk about. Personally I don't feel strong enough about it either way to make a big stink, but as I said before, I think that they should let her die.

One thing that I do know, is that if she dies tomorrow (Good Friday), people are going to go nut balls. The religous implications could be tremendous.

 

[loki09789]

Not being able to afford the expensive and extensive efforts to keep Terry's shell (which she's vacated) breathing is the LEAST of the considerations, and really....it's not one that the husband has brought up, but it's been brought up elsewhere by those who are trying to claim that his following through with his late wife's expressed will is actually merely motivated by money. Seems he (Robert) brought it up to make a point about the case in Texas that Pres. Bush treated differently when he was Gov. Bush.

Like I said before, the husband DID have over $700,000 from the court case concerning the medication that lead to Terry's initial heart attack. He's spent ALL of it and a LOT more on Terry's care. Doesn't sound like he's squeemish about paying at all.

YOU aren't in this situation. When caring long term for a person in a vegetative state....YOU must go on with the rest of your life. You still have to pay your rent/mortgage. You still have to pay the dentist, eat, pay for your car. Life doesn't cut you slack (generally) just becuase you have this ENORMOUS, but needed, expense. The cost just to have someone in a hospital bed for a week would set MOST middle income people back in their family budget for some time!!! I can't imagine a decade and a half!!!
Like it or not, it IS a consideration. Not the primary one. Maybe not even in the top ten, but it is in there.

BUT: In the end, it's not even the point.
She said she didn't want to be kept alive in such a case.
Told her husband, who by all legal presedence SHOULD have the say so in this case. The parents shouldn't even have a claim, legally. A voice? SURE!! Say so? No.
But now, this way things have always been has been violated, the whole ordeal turned into a national, or greater, scandal and debate by people who only have a partial view and a Huge emotional reaction.
IT IS A SHAME, ALL of it!

BTW: This talk of "Why not take out other people"...like mere invalids or mentally handicapt or others...is irrelevent and SICK!!!!

Your Brother
John
PS: Kane, I've not just looked into a few articles. I've really researched it because I was/am really concerned about the principles at play and the presedents being set. Still am. I have researched it and continue to research it.
What have you done? You say you've done the same. NEITHER of us are THERE, neither are IN this horrid situation. We are observers and we bring to it our own preconcieved notions. We must challenge these biases and notions in light of FACT, not emotional sentiment.
If your view never changes, check your lens.

Well said Bro J.

 

[loki09789]

Yes, Upnorth. You and Tgace will hopefully never be faced with having your child in a life and death situation. It's not one I wish on anyone else. Until you've been there, you simply cannot understand.

And, once again, I agree with Robert (restating my position to the point of ad nauseam.) In this particular case, the parents are not in charge any longer.

.

I think the way to avoid feeding the political circus that has surrounded this case is to target comments where and to whom they will do the most good and not give them fuel in coffee house chats like this.

I think the court intervention is ridiculous. The presedence is set: She is an adult, in the case of her inability to make decisions it falls to her husband. She is no longer the ward of her parents and they don't have any legal authority over her.

I truly sympathize with them (though can't empathize) but that doesn't give them the legal right. Just as the day she became a legal adult, the day she married her husband....they had to 'let her go' and this is a moment when that is painfully clear to a parent - you can't protect them anymore....

She is going to be 'dead' in any case. My condolences to them all.

Lobby, protest letters, write your congressman....but feeding the media/political circus isn't really helping. I think we can all agree that it has turned into a fiasco in that department.

Leading by example, living by ideals is all anyone can really do.

Does anyone know if there is a way to contact either side of this issue to demonstrate your active support? I think that would be more productive than spitting at each other like this.

 

[rutherford]

The Supreme Court rejected the appeal without comment.

www.reuters.com

 

[ginshun]

The Supreme Court rejected the appeal without comment.

www.reuters.com

As expected.

So is that it? Is it over? You would think that pretty much ends the appeals wouldn't you?

 

[oldnewbie]

As expected.

So is that it? Is it over? You would think that pretty much ends the appeals wouldn't you?

I think so, as I had heard on the news that this was the "final attempt". But I guess they could make another try.....

All emotion aside, it's refreshing to see the overstepping of power stop.
We have seen some real stretching of the law over the last few weeks...

Now we will see the emotional response.
Yesterday, several were arrested for attempting to "sneak-in" water. Even a child was arrested.

If the reports that she cannot swallow, are true.. wouldn't the people with the water, actually drown her?? Sorry... my mind was just wandering.....

 

[rutherford]

There's still legal action taking place in Florida. The Florida Department of Children and Families filed a suit based on Dr. William Cheshire's statements that she might not be brain dead and that "I could not withhold life-sustaining nutrition from this beautiful lady whose face brightens in the presence of others."

He's never actually examined her, however.

The same judge who ordered her feeding tube removed is ruling on the case by 12 today.


. . . it's not going to end until she's dead, and then we'll still hear about it until something else comes along and captures the public's attention.

MEANWHILE, nobody is paying a lot of attention to other interesting news stories . . . like removing the Senate's right to filibuster. :idunno:

 

[Ping898]

It isn't over cause they still have another appeal going in the Florida court and Jeb B keeps threatening to have DCF take custody of her. Honestly, won't be truly over until she dies. Just they aren't going to get a injunction to get the tube back in immediately.
I do love the irony of all the senators pandering to this group of people, making this law to move the case to federal courts and all the courts rejecting the appeals brought up.
I have to wonder all these people who say it is terrible to starve her to death, how bad is it to keep "tricking" her, pull the tube out, put it back in, pull is out, in...have to think that it could be worse than just pulling it out and letting what will happen, happen.

 

[PeachMonkey]

MEANWHILE, nobody is paying a lot of attention to other interesting news stories . . . like removing the Senate's right to filibuster.

Well put. This is another excellent distraction from the continual degradation of our republic. Everyone focus on the objectification of this corpse while we strip any hope you have of maintaining any democracy in the face of corporate and moneyed interests!