Terry Shiavo and the Sanctity of Life...

rmcrobertson said:
Nonsense.

In the first place, I'm not blaming "Christians," for anything. Nor can you show me a quote in which I've said that, or even remotely hinted at it.

What I've said is that in this case, a small subset of Christians--Protestant fundamentalists, and of course not even all of those (note that Jimmy Carter, being a civilzed and decent man, hasn't said a word about all this), have pushed and pushed and pushed this issue.

And, as mentioned above, they've very clearly said that Bush is the guy they elected, and he needs to do something. Check the 700 Club; check the Christian Coalition; check any of these guys, and they'll tell you exactly that. And they'll tell you unequivocally. Look it up for once.

The problem is that you don't know jack about religions--see the stuff where you claimed to be a deist, but not to believe in a Deity!--and you don't seem to want to find out. here, you appear to think that, "Christian," and, "right-wing Protestant fundamentalist," are synonyms.(Hint--argue the official Catholic position. It's more logical, better supported, and WAY better mannered.) Absolutely your prerogative--but if you're going to argue and discuss things like this, you need a lot better ammo than what you're bringing.

As long as you're insistently bringing up the notion--and it is just a notion--that I'm sticking everybody in boxes, try this: of course I'm not against this sad woman's life, however much you might try to establish a binary opposition in which you life, me death.

It's just that I think her life ended about fifteen years ago, Elmer Gantry.
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Local Catholics have commented on the news during Easter about her 'life' so it isn't just the Fundamentalists that are talking about this.

I think the 'blame' (if you want to call it that) over the media hoopla is with the parents that filed in court, have let other parties (interest groups) get involved in some way (I doubt that the legal/court fees are totally on their shoulders at this point) and have let their daughter become a waving banner in order to push an agenda.

They filed the court case, made it public access and here we go with the rest. Heck even Shiavo's brother was on the news talking down protestors that were attempting to walk through police in order to 'feed' Terry. "Let the courts deal with it" was what he said in the report.

Sad all around.
 
Local Catholics are not the ones screaming their heads off about how this case proves the moral decline of America, or the arrogance of judges and the untrustworthiness of the courts, or the way this shows that Michael Schiavo's a murderer, and on and on.

They simply have a very different point of view, which they seem to be standing up for in a decent and temperate fashion.
 
i won't even begin to trouble myself over reading the 15 pages of posts before this one. it's all back and forth rhetoric. so i'll add my .02. let her live? let her die? it's not the parent's decision. the spouse should have the final say. but on the other hand, all the other side is doing is erring on the side of life. who knows. i wouldn't exactly call being supported by machines and having to be fed through the stomach living.

i don't think the gov't intervened on it's own. it was asked to rule over it. somebody had to make that 1st call to a politicians office. but playing devil's advocate here, what's so wrong with siding with life? isn't that the main important reason we as martial artists study the arts; to protect life and safety? don't we as martial artists cherish living so much that we spend countless hours in the studio or training hall, sweating, bleeding, and busting our asses to preserve this facet of existing? but then again, is this lady really living...? Kid Rock said it best, "Only God Knows Why" :idunno: .
 
Sapper6 said:
i won't even begin to trouble myself over reading the 15 pages of posts before this one. it's all back and forth rhetoric. so i'll add my .02. let her live? let her die? it's not the parent's decision. the spouse should have the final say. but on the other hand, all the other side is doing is erring on the side of life. who knows. i wouldn't exactly call being supported by machines and having to be fed through the stomach living.

i don't think the gov't intervened on it's own. it was asked to rule over it. somebody had to make that 1st call to a politicians office. but playing devil's advocate here, what's so wrong with siding with life? isn't that the main important reason we as martial artists study the arts; to protect life and safety? don't we as martial artists cherish living so much that we spend countless hours in the studio or training hall, sweating, bleeding, and busting our asses to preserve this facet of existing? but then again, is this lady really living...? Kid Rock said it best, "Only God Knows Why" :idunno: .
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Good point Sapper6.:asian:
 
thanks Kane. not that my opinion should matter but hey, that's what forums are for, eh? thanks again.

...and to the anonymous coward who felt the urge to leave me negative rep for stating i "didn't read all 15 pages of posts", and that i shouldn't post a response unless i read every post that precedes mine. is that a rule? i had a good idea of what was contained therein so i didn't feel it necessary to drudge through every one of them. was it really necessary to read the entire thread? was there something there not contained in any news broadcast from the past month...? i doubt it seriously. besides, it was just my opinion on the whole matter, not any of which referred to any post before mine, so no, i shouldn't read every post before making a contribution. grow up.
 
As far as you have any evidentiary basis for, Michael Schiavo DID, "side with life--" meaningful life, unless of course you think that as long as two cells are undergoing mitosis somewhere in the remains there's human life, going forward.

Which option would you like:

1) "Heal the wound and cure the illness, but let the dying spirit go."--Ursula K. Le Guin, "Earthsea trilogy;"

OR

2) "Every Sperm Is Sacred,"--Monty Python.


Or does it not trouble you that the Rev. Jesse Jackson showed up today to yak? What the hell happened to THAT guy? Was there ever a recent moral decline worse than his?

Oh wait--I forgot--that of Dennis Miller, Corporate Bush Shill.


But try this link; read carefully. And before you kvetch---Hitchens, a leftist, supports the war in Iraq. He's wrong, but at least he's intelligent.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2115860/
 
hardheadjarhead said:
The Schiavo family stands to make some money from all of this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?ex=1269752400&en=f1312f1b5ae170ad&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

They sold her donor's list to a direct marketing firm.

Book deals to follow, I'm sure.


Regards,


Steve
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I hearrd that on the readio last night. That is pretty shady if you ask me. The more I hear about this case, the more I think that it really has nothing to do with Teri.

It is just a family fued over money between the Schindlers and the Shiavo's , and now the whole country has just jumped in.



Also nice to see that Jesse Jackson jumped into the ring. The entire media has been focused on this single issue for like the last two weeks. Enter Jesse Jackson, imagine that. :rolleyes:
 
Twenty-eight!! We're up to 28!!!

And all for a woman who would have decently been allowed to die a few decades ago. Now THERE'S progress.
 
FLASH: POPE BEING FED THROUGH FEEDING TUBE. (REUTERS MINUTES AGO).
"NOT FOR LONG" VOWS MICHAEL SCHIAVO AS COURT UPHOLDS HIS PETITION FOR REMOVAL OF THE FEEDING TUBE AND AN END TO ALL EFFORTS AT KEEPING THE AGING PONTIFF ALIVE.

Farfetched? Gosh, I wonder.
It's all a continuum, isn't it? "Quality of life" or "extraordinary measures" are subjective and often deceiving.
Sleep well but not too deeply. Your ex-spouse could be watching.
 
posted this in the thread about the Pope

bignick said:
...to draw parrallel's between the two cases is a little shameful, at best...

I didn't ever really say anything on the other thread because the debate was a little too heated, too much coming from the politics and not the heart or head. Multitudes of doctors have declared Mrs. Schiavo will never recover and she has no sense of self-awareness. I agree with everybody that says that we shouldn't let someone die if that was not their wish, but she died 15 years ago. The pope is a frail old man that's been having some health problems so they gave him a feeding tube to make sure his caloric intake was at a healthy level. To say the cases are at all related except by the most superficial means is disingenuous.

A cousin of mine was working construction a few years ago when a very bad thunderstorm came up and basically tore the building he was in down... he was crushed under debris and was rescued and brought to the hospital. His body was still "alive", but the doctors said he would never ever wake up and his brain was basically pulverized from the accident. He didn't have a living will, and his immediate family decided it was best that they let him go. Where was Bush on that one? Why didn't Congress pass laws just to make sure he lived? It would be interesting to see how many people debating this topic have ever been close to a decision a like this...though I was not involved in this decision myself, it wasn't very hard to see how it affects the people around you. It is not an easy decision to make, but to keep someone you loved in such a state is selfish. I think that letting my cousin die was the last thing we could do for him. When people that have no hope of recovering a sense of self are kept alive, I feel it's done so you don't have to accept that their gone. Sure, I haven't talked to my child in 15 years, but I can see that body lying in a bed....that must mean they are still really there, even when they are not.
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ghostdog2 said:
FLASH: POPE BEING FED THROUGH FEEDING TUBE. (REUTERS MINUTES AGO).
"NOT FOR LONG" VOWS MICHAEL SCHIAVO AS COURT UPHOLDS HIS PETITION FOR REMOVAL OF THE FEEDING TUBE AND AN END TO ALL EFFORTS AT KEEPING THE AGING PONTIFF ALIVE.

Farfetched? Gosh, I wonder.
It's all a continuum, isn't it? "Quality of life" or "extraordinary measures" are subjective and often deceiving.
Sleep well but not too deeply. Your ex-spouse could be watching.
Click to expand...

exactly the same right? You bet, except for the fact that the Pope has a living will specifically stating not to remove a feeding tube. Oh ya that and the fact that he is consious and can communicate.

Why would you even bother posting junk like this?
 
rmcrobertson said:
Twenty-eight!! We're up to 28!!!

And all for a woman who would have decently been allowed to die a few decades ago. Now THERE'S progress.
Click to expand...
The petition got shot down again.

"The Atlanta-based 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to consider an emergency bid by Bob and Mary Schindler for a new hearing in their case, raising a flicker of hope for the parents after a series of setbacks in the case. But the court rejected the bid 15 hours later — the fourth time since last week the court ruled against the Schindlers.
"Any further action by our court or the district court would be improper," wrote Judge Stanley F. Birch Jr., who was appointed by former President Bush. "While the members of her family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty." "
 
ghostdog2 said:
FLASH: POPE BEING FED THROUGH FEEDING TUBE. (REUTERS MINUTES AGO).
"NOT FOR LONG" VOWS MICHAEL SCHIAVO AS COURT UPHOLDS HIS PETITION FOR REMOVAL OF THE FEEDING TUBE AND AN END TO ALL EFFORTS AT KEEPING THE AGING PONTIFF ALIVE.

Farfetched? Gosh, I wonder.
It's all a continuum, isn't it? "Quality of life" or "extraordinary measures" are subjective and often deceiving.
Sleep well but not too deeply. Your ex-spouse could be watching.
Click to expand...
This isn't anywhere near the same either, Pope isn't brain dead, he's just sick and unlike Schiavo, he has a chance at recovery.
 
Well, according to the news reports, Terry passed away at approx. 9:30 a.m. today.

May she finally rest in peace.
 
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