Techniques you learn in your MA that are probably not a good idea for Self Defense

[Hanzou]

I will just say I’m sincerely surprised that the idea of stomping on a dude’s head while he is on the ground being a really dumb idea is controversial.

No offense to anyone, but I seriously wonder what some MAs are teaching people. I used to work in the education system, and teachers would occasionally be attacked by their students. On the high school level, some of the kids were larger than the adults. According to my contacts still in the system, attacks on teachers have increased a bit due to the after effects of the pandemic.

I was attacked by a student, and that student was trying to seriously injure if not possibly kill me. However, after I choked the student and got him off of me, no way in hell would I have stomped his head to make sure he was no longer a threat. I would have ended up in jail because he was a minor, despite him being bigger than I am.

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine in Maryland was teaching a class when a few football players rolled in to harass a smaller student. Unable to stop the boys from accosting the smaller student, (and her being a small woman), she immediately ran across the hall to grab her husband and another teacher to stop the incoming attack.

By the time they got in there, the boys were already pummeling the smaller kid. The teachers attempted to stop the attack, and they were attacked as well, but were eventually able to stop the melee when a few more teachers arrived. In that chaos, if a teacher had curb stomped a kid's head they would be out of a job and looking at some serious punishment.

There are plenty of options for controlling someone on the ground and ending a threat. Curb stomping IS an option, but it shouldn't be a go-to option, and in fact should be WAY down the list of possible options.

 

[caped crusader]

No offense to anyone, but I seriously wonder what some MAs are teaching people. I used to work in the education system, and teachers would occasionally be attacked by their students. On the high school level, some of the kids were larger than the adults. According to my contacts still in the system, attacks on teachers have increased a bit due to the after effects of the pandemic.

I was attacked by a student, and that student was trying to seriously injure if not possibly kill me. However, after I choked the student and got him off of me, no way in hell would I have stomped his head to make sure he was no longer a threat. I would have ended up in jail because he was a minor, despite him being bigger than I am.

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine in Maryland was teaching a class when a few football players rolled in to harass a smaller student. Unable to stop the boys from accosting the smaller student, (and her being a small woman), she immediately ran across the hall to grab her husband and another teacher to stop the incoming attack.

By the time they got in there, the boys were already pummeling the smaller kid. The teachers attempted to stop the attack, and they were attacked as well, but were eventually able to stop the melee when a few more teachers arrived. In that chaos, if a teacher had curb stomped a kid's head they would be out of a job and looking at some serious punishment.

There are plenty of options for controlling someone on the ground and ending a threat. Curb stomping IS an option, but it shouldn't be a go-to option, and in fact should be WAY down the list of possible options.

Totally understand your views as a teacher but the problem is will they do it to you? It´s difficult to deal with some situations. some of the youngsters running around now have no scruples about busting your head in.

 

[Steve]

Totally understand your views as a teacher but the problem is will they do it to you? It´s difficult to deal with some situations. some of the youngsters running around now have no scruples about busting your head in.

Does it make sense to train it though, or wouldn’t it make more sense to learn

Efficacy aside, I don’t recall ever seeing a kata or a 3 step demo in which a person learns a defense against the curb stomp.

for what it’s worth, I think the real issue here is whether teaching average folks that they need to be prepared to kill people is a good idea. I don’t.

 

[caped crusader]

Does it make sense to train it though, or wouldn’t it make more sense to learn

Efficacy aside, I don’t recall ever seeing a kata or a 3 step demo in which a person learns a defense against the curb stomp.

for what it’s worth, I think the real issue here is whether teaching average folks that they need to be prepared to kill people is a good idea. I don’t.

Don´t get me wrong i would not do it either as a Teacher. Was actually the opposite in my school where some of the male Teachers gave some a slap round the ear.
I thought American schools had security? we had Janitors who were all ex Army and were not frail old man. The USA is different though with Guns and such.

 

[Hanzou]

Totally understand your views as a teacher but the problem is will they do it to you?

Maybe. However, as an adult, it's a risk you take when you take a job in high crime and poverty areas. I'm sure that kid who tried to kill me would have curb stomped me if he had the chance. However when I had the opportunity, I didn't do it in return. Adults really shouldn't be curb stomping children and minors. There's something very wrong with that mentality.

It´s difficult to deal with some situations. some of the youngsters running around now have no scruples about busting your head in.

Which means as an adult, you need to be an example and not drop down to their level of violence.

 

[caped crusader]

Kokyu nage is a whole group of finishes (as I understand it, it's named from the principle they all share). If all the throws in that opening sequence would be considered kokyu nage, then I saw one that could be directly usable, but I never thought that one was categorized as kokyu nage.

I only trained for about 2 years in Aikido so not an expert but my understanding was it was "Breathing throws"

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I think of techniques that aren't good for

So if you go to ground. Then they have a knife.

There's nothing unrealistic about this.

Assuming that someone doesn't have a weapon is a good way to find out the hardway. Even if a person is on the ground, doesn't mean that they don't have something else for you.

Not everyone pulls out their knives or guns at the beginning of the confrontation or fight. Even after winning a fight there is a risk that a person may go to their car or bag and pull out the weapon that's stored there.

I grew up during a time period where people were shot for trash talking during a basketball game. Maybe that type of stuff doesn't happen in Australia, but it's a real possibility in the U.S.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the real issue here is whether teaching average folks that they need to be prepared to kill people is a good idea. I don’t.

I try to train people to do horrible things. What is defined as horrible varies from person to person. In terms of self-defense I train them to put emotions aside because they may need to do horrible things in order to get out of that situation. It's not good when your emotions are unchecked and you care more about the attacker than your own safety.

When I spar, one of the things I try to teach students is to clear there mind and emotion and focus on the task at hand which is to attack me without being attacked. During the sparring I would ask them. What are they thinking about. If they answer with what they are thinking then I give them a lecture and we start sparring again. The only answer I want to hear is. "I'm watching, I'm moving you..., I'm setting you ups... I'm targeting..." I don't want hear about "I'm trying to figure out what you are doing next."

Based on my experience the only way people can do horrible things is to clear their mind of emotions and thought and focus on the task at hand.

 

[drop bear]

When I think of techniques that aren't good for

There's nothing unrealistic about this.

Assuming that someone doesn't have a weapon is a good way to find out the hardway. Even if a person is on the ground, doesn't mean that they don't have something else for you.

Not everyone pulls out their knives or guns at the beginning of the confrontation or fight. Even after winning a fight there is a risk that a person may go to their car or bag and pull out the weapon that's stored there.

I grew up during a time period where people were shot for trash talking during a basketball game. Maybe that type of stuff doesn't happen in Australia, but it's a real possibility in the U.S.

Then what is stopping him having 2 knives?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then what is stopping him having 2 knives?

Like I said. That stuff may not happen in Australia or it may happen there and you aren't aware of it. But if you come to the U.S. then don't assume what people will do and what they won't do with a weapon or weapons. This is why criminals get patted down even after they drop the weapon that the police see.

2019 Source: https://apnews.com/article/da4b5ea291414f6c81688f9a634b44f0
LOS ANGELES (AP) — The Latest on a deadly stabbing rampage in Southern California (all times local):
5:11 p.m.
Surveillance video shows a woman defending herself against a man with two knives who attacked and wounded her during a stabbing rampage that left four people dead in two Southern California cities.

2021 source :Portage woman stabbed man with 2 knives during argument, state police say
A Portage woman is behind bars after police say she stabbed a man with two kitchen knives during an argument Monday night.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only trained for about 2 years in Aikido so not an expert but my understanding was it was "Breathing throws"

Yeah, the definition I've heard is loosely "breath and timing throws", so more or less the same thing.

 

[lklawson]

No offense to anyone, but I seriously wonder what some MAs are teaching people. I used to work in the education system, and teachers would occasionally be attacked by their students. On the high school level, some of the kids were larger than the adults. According to my contacts still in the system, attacks on teachers have increased a bit due to the after effects of the pandemic.

I was attacked by a student, and that student was trying to seriously injure if not possibly kill me. However, after I choked the student and got him off of me, no way in hell would I have stomped his head to make sure he was no longer a threat. I would have ended up in jail because he was a minor, despite him being bigger than I am.

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine in Maryland was teaching a class when a few football players rolled in to harass a smaller student. Unable to stop the boys from accosting the smaller student, (and her being a small woman), she immediately ran across the hall to grab her husband and another teacher to stop the incoming attack.

By the time they got in there, the boys were already pummeling the smaller kid. The teachers attempted to stop the attack, and they were attacked as well, but were eventually able to stop the melee when a few more teachers arrived. In that chaos, if a teacher had curb stomped a kid's head they would be out of a job and looking at some serious punishment.

There are plenty of options for controlling someone on the ground and ending a threat. Curb stomping IS an option, but it shouldn't be a go-to option, and in fact should be WAY down the list of possible options.

Context. Like I said very early on in this thread. In your example the very real fight had rules that included not using deadly force unless it is to resist deadly force. In that case the head stomp is morally, ethically, and legally prohibited.

In other "real fight" contexts that do not necessarily include modern civilized self-defense in the united states, a head stomp might be not only justified, but encouraged. Many of the world war II era hand-to-hand combat systems, from which most RBSD systems today seem to derive, include techniques such as "stab your opponent in the back before he knows there's a fight."

Both are "real fights," per se but different contexts.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

Does it make sense to train it though, or wouldn’t it make more sense to learn

Efficacy aside, I don’t recall ever seeing a kata or a 3 step demo in which a person learns a defense against the curb stomp.

I've seen kata which include stomping. Ask three different instructors what the stomp is supposed to mean and you'll likely get four different answers. But at least one of them will be stomping on an opponent that has been downed for some reason.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[lklawson]

Totally understand your views as a teacher but the problem is will they do it to you? It´s difficult to deal with some situations. some of the youngsters running around now have no scruples about busting your head in.

In most places it is considered legal to use deadly force in response to deadly force being used against you.

There are often modifiers and conditions, but that's the general rule.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[caped crusader]

In most places it is considered legal to use deadly force in response to deadly force being used against you.

There are often modifiers and conditions, but that's the general rule.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

I will use my Ninja Nin Jutsu ....haha

 

[lklawson]

I thought American schools had security?

Most school security in the US is a joke. Very often it is supposedly secured doors, sometimes magnetometers and searches, and usually an extremely disproportionate number of resource officers. And that's kind of a best case. In many places now open campuses mean security doors that aren't very well secured, usually no magnetometers or searches, and some schools are, rather inexplicably to me, deciding that school resource officers are a problem and need to be taken out of the schools.

we had Janitors who were all ex Army and were not frail old man. The USA is different though with Guns and such.

I'm not sure what you mean by the inclusion of guns here. Most of the schools that have a school resource officer, have the resource officer armed. There are many states which give the local school board the option to allow some teachers to be armed with concealed handguns, but there is always a training requirement and it tends to vary based on the politics of the area and state. Left leaning States tend to prohibit that and right leading States tend to allow. But, even then, the ratio of armed personnel to area and students to protect tends to be pretty disproportionate.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've seen kata which include stomping.

That's impossible. Stomping wasn't invented until MMA. No way TMA would have thought of doing such a thing. lol. And he's stomping a down opponent who is trying to defend themselves.

I don't understand why there is so much debate on stomping on someone

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've seen kata which include stomping.

It's called "follow on striking". When you take your opponent down, your task is not finished yet.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's impossible. Stomping wasn't invented until MMA. No way TMA would have thought of doing such a thing.

Stomp and then punch opponent when he is on the ground did exist in CMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Stomp and then punch opponent when he is on the ground did exist in CMA.

Definitely. I was saying it in a joking manner because I posted stomping being done in a MMA video. I'm sure stomping on a downed opponent was universal on all fighting systems globally (historically). Out of all of the "Martial Arts" techniques out there stomping on someone would be relatively easy to do if you can keep your balance on one leg long enough to stomp down. Most people learn the stomping motion on their own as kids.

Ask a toddler to step on an ant and the first thing most do is try to stomp the mess out it lol.