Techniques you learn in your MA that are probably not a good idea for Self Defense

[Steve]

Some posts seems to have veered quite a bit from the original purpose, to a discussion on gun control and law enforcement.

Not gun control, but certainly the real world hazards that having heavily armed neighbors represents. The former is legislative and the latter is real world self defense.

Regarding law enforcement... is that an off limits topic now? I didn't get that memo.

Sincerely not trying to be coy or clever here. I 100% don't understand your reaction or what you are all discussing behind the scenes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To get things back on topic. Here's another one. Not so much with Jow Ga that I know of but it's something I've seen before. The 20 strike combos that are taught in class should not be used in a real self-defense situations. It looks good in a demo, but in practical use, it's difficult to lay a large change of combination attacks that will follow as trained. Any thing beyond a 5 strike combo because increasingly unlikely.

My read of these has always been that they're for training the transitions between the techniques. So, it's not assuming you'll get to do those 20 in a row, but that each of those pairs (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc.) is a valid pairing, so you're working the transitions and flow. In addition, it's meant to build a habit of continuing attack, so long as there are openings and the threat exists.

I'd go back to the idea of shadow boxing. Nobody presupposes someone shadowboxing expects the fight to go in exactly that sequence, but they expect the combinations they are practicing to be useful. Of course, shadowboxing tends to be based on some fairly predictable fight mechanics, while the long combos you're talking about may not be.

 

[dvcochran]

I would need more information frankly than what you're providing here. If someone had broken into my house in the middle of the night, then yeah stabbing them in the back is a possible option, because this person is a potential threat, and there's no time to ask questions.

However, beyond that situation, where else would me preemptively stabbing someone in the back make sense? I really can't think of too many situations where that situation would arise. Further, if I'm wrong and a stab a person who wasn't doing anything wrong, I've just earned a ticket to a prison cell. Same applies if I bring a knife to a bar fight.

I can say with certainty that it depends on where you are at (globally/regionally) and the circumstances surrounding the encounter.

I took the 'stabbing in the back' as an inference, an single example of many possible scenarios.

 

[dvcochran]

I think self defense is inherently funny, and honestly, this thread was very enjoyable. My mistake was to underestimate how many people on this forum think curb stomping is not just a good idea, but essential training for most people. My bad on that.

If you're tired, you could take a nap, or use the ignore feature. I don't mind at all.

Not tired at all. Sounds like you are the one who is fading. Usually happens when your bluff gets called.

So for you, MA's training, in your case BJJ allegedly, is purely for competition?

Did you ever consider that "curb stomp" was just an analogy?

 

[JowGaWolf]

My read of these has always been that they're for training the transitions between the techniques. So, it's not assuming you'll get to do those 20 in a row, but that each of those pairs (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc.) is a valid pairing, so you're working the transitions and flow. In addition, it's meant to build a habit of continuing attack, so long as there are openings and the threat exists.

I'd go back to the idea of shadow boxing. Nobody presupposes someone shadowboxing expects the fight to go in exactly that sequence, but they expect the combinations they are practicing to be useful. Of course, shadowboxing tends to be based on some fairly predictable fight mechanics, while the long combos you're talking about may not be.

That's how I see the training as well. I don't look things like that as one long string of combo. However, in demos that's how it's presented and unfortunately that is never made clear to students who then expect that such long combos are possible.

I believe long combination strikes are possible, but I don't believe long predetermined combinations are possible.

Edit a long combo for me would be strikes 1-3 predetermined set. Strikes 4-5-6. It's whatever comes next which is totally based on my my attacker does after my 3rd strike.

 

[Hanzou]

I can say with certainty that it depends on where you are at (globally/regionally) and the circumstances surrounding the encounter.

I took the 'stabbing in the back' as an inference, an single example of many possible scenarios.

Isn't that a bit of a cop out though? Certainly if we're talking about everywhere and anywhere, everything and anything applies. However, I'm willing to bet that the majority of us on this forum live in wealthy, western countries, and thus we have a limited amount of situations that can realistically apply to us.

Take my SD experience for example where I was attacked by a large person wielding a hammer. If I would have stabbed that person in the back before I was attacked, I'd be typing to you from a jail cell right now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I would have stabbed that person in the back before I was attacked, I'd be typing to you from a jail cell right now.

My SC teacher's 2nd son was stabbed from behind right in front of his house. Even today, nobody can find who killed him that day.

To stab from behind mean that person won't know who kills him.

 

[Hanzou]

My SC teacher's 2nd son was stabbed from behind right in front of his house. Even today, nobody can find who killed him that day.

To stab from behind mean that person won't know who kills him.

Well that wouldn't have been me. There were cameras.

 

[isshinryuronin]

a long combo for me would be strikes 1-3 predetermined set. Strikes 4-5-6. It's whatever comes next which is totally based on my my attacker does after my 3rd strike.

A 1-2-3 (or 4) move set initial combo is very doable, though it should take into account at least one counter attempt, so checks and body angle should be built in. After that, as you say, who knows just how the guy will be positioned and what his resulting capabilities are? Thru some firm pair training we can see what the 2 most common results will be and have an A and B version of 4-5-6 accordingly to deal with them. Of course, there can be a C or D version we haven't foreseen. Checks and angles can minimize this risk and give us a chance to adapt.

So, it's not assuming you'll get to do those 20 in a row, but that each of those pairs (1-2, 2-3, 3-4, etc.) is a valid pairing, so you're working the transitions and flow. In addition, it's meant to build a habit of continuing attack, so long as there are openings and the threat exists.

I underlined this part to stress the high importance of what you are saying in this sentence. It is key to coming out the victor, especially in a real fight with a capable opponent. Physically, yes, keep punching, manipulating, elbowing and kneeing (don't get sloppy, so practice those 20 in a row with good form and balance) until the threat is gone. Also, spiritually to stick to the opponent AND the mission - commitment to complete it.

I have seen fights in boxing, MMA, karate and more where one guy has done a few good strikes, then stops for whatever reason, giving the opponent a chance to recover his poise!!! In war, this is like retreating, then having to retake the ground (something Gen. Patton hated). Why on earth give him a break? Three reasons: Stupidity, lack of physical capability, lack of commitment. If I remember Sun Tzu correctly, he said "After penetrating enemy territory, do not stop."

 

[drop bear]

I have seen fights in boxing, MMA, karate and more where one guy has done a few good strikes, then stops for whatever reason, giving the opponent a chance to recover his poise!!! In war, this is like retreating, then having to retake the ground (something Gen. Patton hated). Why on earth give him a break? Three reasons: Stupidity, lack of physical capability, lack of commitment. If I remember Sun Tzu correctly, he said "After

Yeah. If you get too buck wild when you think you are winning it becomes very easy to be countered.

You see it in bare knuckle. Where you just can't trade as safely. The have very short combinations.

The very first exchange is a good example. One guy is putting a flurry on and gets caught.

So say you have this sort of environment where one punch can end you. You have to be really careful about how much you expose yourself.

 

[dvcochran]

Isn't that a bit of a cop out though? Certainly if we're talking about everywhere and anywhere, everything and anything applies. However, I'm willing to bet that the majority of us on this forum live in wealthy, western countries, and thus we have a limited amount of situations that can realistically apply to us.
I
Take my SD experience for example where I was attacked by a large person wielding a hammer. If I would have stabbed that person in the back before I was attacked, I'd be typing to you from a jail cell right now.

So let's narrow it down to the USA.
A person's curtilage is somewhat loosely defined and moves with them to a large degree. If I am in my house, the room I am in has legally been argued as curtilage. The same is true for the inside of a vehicle. Within these confines if a person has reason and can reasonably argue that their defense, no matter what that entailed, can be justified and pretty much anything goes. That includes a preemptive strike such as in the case of a knife to the back. Granted and again, there would have to be conditional factors involved. Of course that does not include something as benign as getting cut off in traffic and it would have to be of an extraordinary circumstance, but in the example of protecting life, limb, family, and friends, these would go a very long way.

You take these items outside western culture, excluding exceptions like some European countries, and I would say the bar is lowered considerably.

 

[drop bear]

Well thanks for bringing up the NRA because, you know, it's not particularly relevant to the discussion, just like the rest of the post.

The idea was that it is a big organisation that appeals to a mainstream part of the community. And that it sells via fantasy.

Where when you mentioned your friends don't have those same fantasy's. But that is such a small number as to be irrelevant.

And look selling via power fantasy, a fear fantasy and then trying to justify that with a responsibility fantasy. Is almost a blue print on how to sell martial arts. Or guns. Or a lot of stuff to be honest.

The sheepdog fantasy.

But eventually you get this.

Where people get to play at being the sort of person who could actually handle 3 people coming at them with sticks and knives or stuff.

Or the sort of person who thinks he could kick a person to death. Or shoot someone or whatever.

And look. Good luck to them. Not all martial arts are about learning to fight. Some focus on the other thing.

 

[Hanzou]

So let's narrow it down to the USA.
A person's curtilage is somewhat loosely defined and moves with them to a large degree. If I am in my house, the room I am in has legally been argued as curtilage. The same is true for the inside of a vehicle. Within these confines if a person has reason and can reasonably argue that their defense, no matter what that entailed, can be justified and pretty much anything goes. That includes a preemptive strike such as in the case of a knife to the back. Granted and again, there would have to be conditional factors involved. Of course that does not include something as benign as getting cut off in traffic and it would have to be of an extraordinary circumstance, but in the example of protecting life, limb, family, and friends, these would go a very long way.

You take these items outside western culture, excluding exceptions like some European countries, and I would say the bar is lowered considerably.

Yeah, like I said in an earlier post, if I got some goons in my house trying to murder my family, a few knives in the back would be more than justified.

Some guy is being a jerk in a bar?

I'm substitute teaching and a large HS kid is balling up their fist and pacing the classroom?

I'm a woman and my date is starting to make some unwelcome advances?

Not so much.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

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