But you assume someone attacks you. What if someone attacks your wife? You just can't escape and leave your wife there. IMO, Self-defense is more than just defend "yourself".
Forbidden Techniques in Self-Defense
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There is a whole bunch of nasty non life threatening attacks that you quite simply shoudnt have to accept and be happy about.
I think that still fits into his comment. In that case, you haven't realistically created an opportunity to escape.
In fact, it's pretty much exactly what you said, just in different words.
I think, for the most part, techniques you can't practice, should be forbidden. Always go for the blood choke, never air. You can mess up a blood choke, and your partner will live to talk about it. 
Fight, you may die. Run, you may live. At least for a while. And dying in your bed many years from now ...
IMO, It's better to die by fighting than to escape, let someone rapes your wife, and live in shame for the rest of your life.
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Juany118
Senior Master
Regarding the OP I tend towards a more pragmatic approach, occupational hazard. While much that was said previously is correct I have found that giving too much information can cause confusion, confusion can cause hesitation and hesitation to can lead to victimization or worse. So I boil it down to the following...
1. Avoid whenever possible. Act like you do have a duty to retreat, even when you don't.
2. If avoidance/retreat is not an option the "legal" term is that your force must be "objectively reasonable." When asked I boil it down like this. First I say "read your jurisdiction's self defense statutes" because in my State you can use Lethal Force if you are the victim of specific crimes (Robbery, Rape) regardless of the force being used against you. Then I explain that cases not specifically covered, equal size/skill is the baseline.
With that in mind I say, if someone just shoves you and nothing more, you can't just haul knock them out, if they punch you in the stomach you can't just stab them with a knife or brain them with a baseball bat.
Everything else, imo, can feed off that baseline. Intentionally doing a full on throat punch, as an example, fits into the baseball bat scenario above. If the attacker is larger/stronger and/or more skilled, you may be able to justify the baseball bat or throat punch. Note in some jurisdictions a kick to the knee "breaking it" may also call into the baseball bat scenario so read those laws.
Above all when the threat stops you stop, you don't "restomp the groin."
1. Avoid whenever possible. Act like you do have a duty to retreat, even when you don't.
2. If avoidance/retreat is not an option the "legal" term is that your force must be "objectively reasonable." When asked I boil it down like this. First I say "read your jurisdiction's self defense statutes" because in my State you can use Lethal Force if you are the victim of specific crimes (Robbery, Rape) regardless of the force being used against you. Then I explain that cases not specifically covered, equal size/skill is the baseline.
With that in mind I say, if someone just shoves you and nothing more, you can't just haul knock them out, if they punch you in the stomach you can't just stab them with a knife or brain them with a baseball bat.
Everything else, imo, can feed off that baseline. Intentionally doing a full on throat punch, as an example, fits into the baseball bat scenario above. If the attacker is larger/stronger and/or more skilled, you may be able to justify the baseball bat or throat punch. Note in some jurisdictions a kick to the knee "breaking it" may also call into the baseball bat scenario so read those laws.
Above all when the threat stops you stop, you don't "restomp the groin."
What makes you think I am going to wait until they begin their attack before I act?
Either way, striking until they are no longer in a fit state to be a threat creates the opportunity to escape. So it doesn't matter if they attack me, or my wife, once I have created the opportunity to escape, we will.
wingchun100
Senior Master
I had someone contact me through Amazon to write a review of his self-defense book. He had some pretty good ideas in it...until he got to the part where he talked about the law, retreating, and so on. He said, "The law tells you that if you can retreat, you should...but here's what *I* think." He then went on to give a macho man speech, which basically said how retreating is for wimps.
Needless to say, I had to leave a less than flattering review. I said, "This book is putting forth some dangerous philosophies/ideas that will land someone in jail...because if the person who attacked you is on the ground and you kick them in the temple, then YOU are now the aggressor."
Needless to say, I had to leave a less than flattering review. I said, "This book is putting forth some dangerous philosophies/ideas that will land someone in jail...because if the person who attacked you is on the ground and you kick them in the temple, then YOU are now the aggressor."
MI_martialist
Brown Belt
Creating the opportunity to escape is effective "self defense". It is the same as firearm laws about chasing someone...you are no longer protecting yourself but rather being the aggressor.
It is yes, I have said no different.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said here. Both in a moral and legal sense. And you know what? It sometimes sucks. It really does.
You spend your life trying to do the right thing, helping others, loving family and friends, just passing through the world - and the whole while you're training. And, man, training ain't easy. You give so much time, you sacrifice so many other things, we all do. You get hurt, injured, sore, sometimes you can barely move. But you love it and do it all over again and again.
Then some clown comes along and wants to hurt someone. We didn't get to choose this scenario, he did. We didn't get to choose "say go" he did. (even if you engage first tactically, he's the one that set that, not you)
I wish we had equal rights. I wish we, as the ones set upon, who didn't have a say in the start, had, by Congressional decree, a say in the finish. "Oh, you hurt now? Can't breathe right this second? Here, take this home with you, no extra charge." Then just blast him with a bone strike (or whatever, we all have our favorite "you don't ever want to feel this mofo" type of thing)- nothing to seriously maim or break him, just something that will pain his worthless *** for a week or three, every time he moves, every time he bumps it and every time he thinks about it.
Yeah, I know we can't. But I can sure dream.
You spend your life trying to do the right thing, helping others, loving family and friends, just passing through the world - and the whole while you're training. And, man, training ain't easy. You give so much time, you sacrifice so many other things, we all do. You get hurt, injured, sore, sometimes you can barely move. But you love it and do it all over again and again.
Then some clown comes along and wants to hurt someone. We didn't get to choose this scenario, he did. We didn't get to choose "say go" he did. (even if you engage first tactically, he's the one that set that, not you)
I wish we had equal rights. I wish we, as the ones set upon, who didn't have a say in the start, had, by Congressional decree, a say in the finish. "Oh, you hurt now? Can't breathe right this second? Here, take this home with you, no extra charge." Then just blast him with a bone strike (or whatever, we all have our favorite "you don't ever want to feel this mofo" type of thing)- nothing to seriously maim or break him, just something that will pain his worthless *** for a week or three, every time he moves, every time he bumps it and every time he thinks about it.
Yeah, I know we can't. But I can sure dream.
OP
OP
You must stop when the threat ends. That moment is subject to interpretation. Whoever has understanding, them reckon the number.
Yeah but you end the threat before it escalates. Then again, you can let the threat run and stop when necessary. Not saying that is fun though
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Iron Maiden. Not much sneaks by me.
I'm sure I could sneak a lot of the stuff I listen to, past you.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Context, and opportunity. That's where it all is.I'm sure I could sneak a lot of the stuff I listen to, past you.
My Iron Maiden might not get past him, but maybe some Neil Diamond or Joe Dassin?I'm sure I could sneak a lot of the stuff I listen to, past you.
Juany118
Senior Master
Exactly. Defense of others does add a complication but in that case what you are doing is acting to create an avenue of escape for the "victim". The "wife" scenario is actually the most troubling for me. She is a LEO as well but try as I might I can't convince her to study martial arts on her own. I show her easy to retain "tricks" but that is as far as I have gotten. Luckily she works for a different PD that covers your stereotypical "bedroom community" and not a small city with a crime rate typical of "the steel mills left decades ago" town like I do. Still I worry what happens if her tools fail and her back up hasn't arrived yet.
Juany118
Senior Master
As soon as I read this "Wasted Years" and my current fave "Empire of the Clouds" started ringing in my head.
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