Techniques you learn in your MA that are probably not a good idea for Self Defense

[JowGaWolf]

Speaking as someone who (in that other thread) didn't think butt scooting was a good idea in a self-defense situation, not really. What JowGaWolf and DD are talking about regarding the potential threat from someone who has been put on the ground isn't that they will butt scoot towards you, get a leg entanglement, and heel hook you. Not only is that highly unlikely in a self-defense scenario, but it would be easy to counter by just walking away. They're talking about the risk of the person getting back up and continuing to attack from their feet. Whether that's a legitimate concern depends on the situation and so the question of whether you would be legally or morally justified in stomping on the opponent's head once they are down also depends on the specifics of the situation.

Also in the other thread, no one was denying that a skilled person could fight effectively from the ground against a standing opponent. (Although I would argue that would be less than the optimal choice in a real fight.) There were some (like myself) who were concerned with BJJ practitioners who only trained for competition neglecting the development of their standup and takedown skills. There were others with different opinions of what should constitute stalling under the sport rules. But I don't see anyone who is arguing opposite sides of the same argument.

Correct
We can look at MMA. Why do they "Ground and Pound"? Why do they attack when a person falls to the mat? They do it even when the other fighter is stumbling unable to defend themselves.? Why do we say things like "put em away" when the opponent is least able to defend themselves?

Keyword "Least able" which is more often occurs within short spans of time. Example, being on the ground may only last 2 seconds or less, but once the person is standing back up, the full risk has returned.

 

[caped crusader]

This ... Kokyu Nage

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometimes. Given that there are uncountable different scenarios, pretty much anything is sometimes. And pretty much nothing is never.
For example, you're choking them out, and their buddy stabs you. Maybe you should have curb stomped the first one.

I laugh because in real life. I teach. If you are being attacked by 2 or more people and you can't escape, then you have make the first one you can get a hold of striking or grappling and make that person suffer the worst. Make that person scream as if they are dying so you can strike fear in the hearts and minds of their friends. The reason why is because you have a better chance of making it out of that fight if they fear you. If it helps, then throw some demon voice overs lol make some animal sounds. Go nuts. lol. But make that first person a demo of what the others can expect.

The other benefit is that if you hurt the first guy bad enough you can say things like "You might want to take your friend to the hospital, if that internal bleeding / bleeding doesn't stop, he'll die" No you have put them in a situation where there is even more uncertainty.

In a multiple fight scenario, the first person is usually the one with more heart or stupidity who is willing to take that risk. The others are just waiting for the opportunity to jump in. Fighting back like this doesn't mean that you will win the fight, but the more doubt and uncertainty of victory that attackers have the better chances you have of making it out of a bad situation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's something to think of in terms of being on the ground.

Law enforcement command people to go to the ground because it puts that person at a disadvantage.

 

[caped crusader]

Here's something to think of in terms of being on the ground.

Law enforcement commands people to go to the ground because it puts that person at a disadvantage.

The police are normally mob handed if they do this. It´s like in a jail, if you will control a violent prisoner (who might be on drugs) they go mob handed. Pretty sensible ..TBH.
A street fight is like this, you react or run. I was in a couple of situations where i just punched the nearest guy and i got out OK. Not saying it will always work but honestly if you are aggressive then you have more chance. most in a pack are just **** bags.

 

[drop bear]

Personally, I'd use knee on belly over mount in a SD situation.

And yeah, Kesa Gatame is preferable over mount and side control in many cases as well. I would argue that KG gives you a bit more control, and the submissions are a bit smoother to accomplish.

Mount is pretty good for dropping bows on people's heads though.

You just get cut up on the gravel doing it. It's fine if you have a few days to recover.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Steve I'm confused about what you're suggesting in this thread. In a couple ways.

1. You seem to be suggesting that the "butt scooting thread" is something viable in self-defense, where people are arguing that it isn't. There are two issues with this:
1. From what I recall, Jowga isn't one of the one's complaining about that thread. So you can't put the complaints of the rest of us on him, if he didn't make the complain.
2. He's referring to a guy that's on the ground. Theoretically, this is a guy on the ground preventing you from escaping (ie: you get cornered in an alley and the guy goes on the ground). This requires you to get past that guy in order to escape safely.

2. You seem to be under the impression that police can't act in self-defense. I get this idea, since they have their guns drawn, when engaging in an active shooter scenario. But it doesn't mean that they're not in a self-defense scenario.
They're overly analyzed for what's appropriate/inapproriate, so even if they have their guns drawn they generally can't shoot unless there's no doubt whatsoever about the intent of the person they're shooting at. That gives a distinct advantage to the other person. And if they're concerned for their life, and shoot, it's just as much self-defense as any other person, even if they put themselves in harms way (presumably for the safety of other individuals).

 

[Hanzou]

Sometimes. Given that there are uncountable different scenarios, pretty much anything is sometimes. And pretty much nothing is never.
For example, you're choking them out, and their buddy stabs you. Maybe you should have curb stomped the first one.

Couldn’t you still get stabbed by bad guy #2 while in the process of, or directly following curb stomping bad guy #1? I’m not seeing how curb stomping one guy stops a completely different person from stabbing you.

 

[drop bear]

Couldn’t you still get stabbed by bad guy #2 while in the process of, or directly following curb stomping bad guy #1? I’m not seeing how curb stomping one guy stops a completely different person from stabbing you.

If you look at sucker punches on the street. Being standing doesn't exactly negate that third person intervention.

Moving does and standing makes moving easier.

But the standing vs ground isn't the distinction people think it is.

As far as butt scooting goes. You have to be better at guard than the guy passing. And striking and slamming makes the guard pass game a lot easier.

Where if you are in a top position. You don't really have to be that much better to stay there. And your striking game can be garbage and you will still probably dominate that from that position.

 

[Hanzou]

If you look at sucker punches on the street. Being standing doesn't exactly negate that third person intervention.

Moving does and standing makes moving easier.

But the standing vs ground isn't the distinction people think it is.

As far as butt scooting goes. You have to be better at guard than the guy passing. And striking and slamming makes the guard pass game a lot easier.

Where if you are in a top position. You don't really have to be that much better to stay there. And your striking game can be garbage and you will still probably dominate that from that position.

I agree with all of this. Just gets tiring playing the self defense version of Dungeons and Dragons over and over again.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with all of this. Just gets tiring playing the self defense version of Dungeons and Dragons over and over again.

That is how self defence discussions go. It is a weird thing people do.

You will even find normally sensible people suddenly go all fantasy role play when talking about the street.

Bjj in general is a lot of doing things wrong for self defense. Jumping of mount for arm bars. Regarding when you should be sitting out. That kind of stuff.

But they do it well enough that they get away with it generally.

Which then makes it the right thing by default.

I mean I do sacrifice throws on the street. But I get away with it because I learned it early in my life and my timing is really good. But I don't recommend them.

There is a kind of madness that attaches itself to self defence

 

[drop bear]

Which leads me to hip throws. I wouldn't do them as a self defense technique. If I was some sort of trained hip throw monster then yes. But a lot of systems try to teach them as short course self defence. Which I think is incredibly risky.

Worse than head kicks. Because at worst you are going to fall over and can get up or fight from guard.

You are not basically giving away a free strangle hold.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This ... Kokyu Nage

Kokyu nage is a whole group of finishes (as I understand it, it's named from the principle they all share). If all the throws in that opening sequence would be considered kokyu nage, then I saw one that could be directly usable, but I never thought that one was categorized as kokyu nage.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Couldn’t you still get stabbed by bad guy #2 while in the process of, or directly following curb stomping bad guy #1?

Of course you could. But since curb stomping them takes a LOT less time than, say, choking them out, it reduces their opportunity to stab you while you're occupied. It all comes down to the very specific circumstances involved in a particular confrontation.

I’m not seeing how curb stomping one guy stops a completely different person from stabbing you.

I'm going to say that is a you problem, since it addresses something nobody said.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course you could. But since curb stomping them takes a LOT less time than, say, choking them out, it reduces their opportunity to stab you while you're occupied. It all comes down to the very specific circumstances involved in a particular confrontation.

So you’re saying that stomping or kicking someone in the head incapacitates them 100% of the time, and there’s zero chance of you missing, which would thus force you to attempt to do it again?

I'm going to say that is a you problem, since it addresses something nobody said.

You implied that curb stomping would help prevent getting stabbed by the second ninja hiding in the shadows. You implied it again in your quote above.

Hidden Ninjas and 100% effective techniques aside, the point is that it would appear to be preferable (in the legal and/or ethical sense) to choke someone out, or even pop their shoulder or twist their ankle than to stomp their brains in with your combat boots.

Obviously if you're dealing with someone attempting to murder you, that sort of precaution goes out the window. However, it's important to note that there are SD situations where murdering your attacker or turning them into a vegetable isn't a viable option.

 

[drop bear]

I'm going to say that is a you problem, since it addresses something nobody said.

Rules of the street discussions. If in doubt we just add an extra hypothetical problem.

So if you go to ground. Then they have a knife.

Take that knife. Then they have two knives.

Take both knives Then they have friends.

Bash all their friends. Then their friends have guns.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Of course you could. But since curb stomping them takes a LOT less time than, say, choking them out, it reduces their opportunity to stab you while you're occupied. It all comes down to the very specific circumstances involved in a particular confrontation.

Seems common sense to me. With multiple attackers, you canNOT get tied up with one guy. The extra few seconds you spend with him gives his buddies ample opportunity to mob or stick you. You have to get rid of #1 ASAP (ideally keeping him between you and the others) and be in position to handle the rest. If he's down but still a player, and stomping him is the fastest way to put him out of the fight, do it. If you can break his arm as you take him down, even better. Of course, if he's out before he starts going down, that's the best case scenario.

This situation of multiple attackers is one sport karate does not deal with. You get only one "point" to work with (sudden death). That one strike, or an immediate follow up, has to be decisive and debilitating: Clean heavy head shot, take out an eye, larynx strike, knee break, etc. No back and forth sparring.
Only forth.

It´s like in a jail, if you will control a violent prisoner (who might be on drugs) they go mob handed

A tactical team approach is used for several reasons. Detention/Correction Officers are not usually well trained in combat. If one is, it is bad optics to beat up a detainee with punches and elbows. Mobbing him uses weight to immobilize him, causing minimum damage to all concerned. Of course, it takes several minutes (or more) to assemble a team - that's the downside.

 

[Hanzou]

Seems common sense to me. With multiple attackers, you canNOT get tied up with one guy. The extra few seconds you spend with him gives his buddies ample opportunity to mob or stick you.

The problem is that the original scenario wasn't multiple attackers.

The other problem is that there are definitely situations where you cannot curb stomp someone. Even if being attacked by multiple assailants.

 

[Steve]

@Steve I'm confused about what you're suggesting in this thread. In a couple ways.

1. You seem to be suggesting that the "butt scooting thread" is something viable in self-defense, where people are arguing that it isn't. There are two issues with this:
1. From what I recall, Jowga isn't one of the one's complaining about that thread. So you can't put the complaints of the rest of us on him, if he didn't make the complain.
2. He's referring to a guy that's on the ground. Theoretically, this is a guy on the ground preventing you from escaping (ie: you get cornered in an alley and the guy goes on the ground). This requires you to get past that guy in order to escape safely.

2. You seem to be under the impression that police can't act in self-defense. I get this idea, since they have their guns drawn, when engaging in an active shooter scenario. But it doesn't mean that they're not in a self-defense scenario.
They're overly analyzed for what's appropriate/inapproriate, so even if they have their guns drawn they generally can't shoot unless there's no doubt whatsoever about the intent of the person they're shooting at. That gives a distinct advantage to the other person. And if they're concerned for their life, and shoot, it's just as much self-defense as any other person, even if they put themselves in harms way (presumably for the safety of other individuals).

the entire idea of qualified immunity basically means it’s never a matter of self defense for cops. Right? If we are talking about self defense in a legal sense.

 

[Steve]

I will just say I’m sincerely surprised that the idea of stomping on a dude’s head while he is on the ground being a really dumb idea is controversial.