Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono & Twin Kimono

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Dave,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, so hopefully you can clarify for me.

Reading the last few posts, I get the impression that you're saying that this technique is perfectly fine to do in the IP. But in this thread, I get the complete opposite read.

As for the clip that I posted...I posted that simply for reference. We saw a tech being discussed, which included a groin shot, yet once some pressure was applied, that groin shot went right out the window.

Training the IP develops the skills. Circumstance in a fight is fluid, and ever-changing. One has got to be able to adapt to circumstance. I think that the guys in the nosebleed stratosphere can dictate the terms of engagement... I never got to go anywhere grappling that Rickson or his AI's didn't let me; I never got to fall over from a kenpo thwack until I was allowed to by Mr. Parker... Doc is the same way. I train for that level of expertise, but am willing to move into "What If" contingencies if-and-when I drop the 'Even If" ball. Have had soime fights go like clockwork... couldn't ask for more ideal conditions and responses. Others have been barely contained chaos, where I just try to hang on long enough to hit whatever I can, whenever I get the chance. Both states of personal combat have been informed well by IP training.

 

[MJS]

this is why I usually take the stance against dropping the IP techniques.Although, it has to make sense, the onus is on me to find this stuff through hard work and constantly sharpenening the sword. How much would be lost if I misunderstood things so much that I created something immediately superior looking but bereft of content in the long run.. Thank you Dr.Dave. I 'find' stuff like this all the time as I delve more into the basics and training. Sometimes even more often when I practice them slow enough to see but keep the intent of the lines of force involved. Great stuff!!!
many thanks
Marlon

Training the IP develops the skills. Circumstance in a fight is fluid, and ever-changing. One has got to be able to adapt to circumstance. I think that the guys in the nosebleed stratosphere can dictate the terms of engagement... I never got to go anywhere grappling that Rickson or his AI's didn't let me; I never got to fall over from a kenpo thwack until I was allowed to by Mr. Parker... Doc is the same way. I train for that level of expertise, but am willing to move into "What If" contingencies if-and-when I drop the 'Even If" ball. Have had soime fights go like clockwork... couldn't ask for more ideal conditions and responses. Others have been barely contained chaos, where I just try to hang on long enough to hit whatever I can, whenever I get the chance. Both states of personal combat have been informed well by IP training.

Just for clarification....IIRC, I've never suggested not training the IP techniques. In fact, I believe what I have said, is that the IP techniques are our base, our foundation, to build from. But....I also feel that we need to look past the IP techniques. I've said it, others have said it too. We probably aren't going to pull off a full blown IP, but we will most likely use bits and pieces accordingly.

I'll train Lone Kimono with someone in a fully relaxed state. No resistance, no counters, nothing other than the base technique. He stands there (like we see in numerous clips) and lets me pound away at him. This is my time to work the technique, the fine points, etc. Afterwards, the pace gets picked up a bit more. The grab is a bit harder, some movement is added in, eventually working up to where, at some point during the technique, he does something different, such as throwing a punch with his right, grabbing with his other hand, trying to kick, abandoning the grab and changing the attack altogether. This is where the spontaneous stuff comes in, IMO. Yeah, I know the initial attack, but thats it...I dont know what else he's going to do. Of course, I also work total spontaneous drills, where I have no idea whats coming, and yes, sometimes its more than 1 attack. To date, when I've done this, I've yet to do a full IP technique. Iam doing bits and pieces and the concepts and ideas though...ie: the basics.

The other day, I was flipping thru the May 2011 issue of BB magazine. Interesting article by Kelly McCann. In it, he talks about how an attack, will have a dimishing effect on things such as speed of response, decision making and effective recall. He says that while learning hundreds of techniques is a fine hobby and needed to acheive rank, its better to have fewer choices. IMO, we get those 'fewer choices' by using the base techs. and building from there, such as I describe above.

For me, and I know this may not be the proper Kenpo way of thinking, but thats fine, but my goal is simple...defend myself. I'm not looking to pull out a list of X number of punch techs. I'm looking to defend myself with the simple basics, that the techs teach us. Whether I do Attacking Mace or simply step off on a 45, parry and blast the guy in the face...as long as I'm defending the punch, THAT is what matters most.

 

[marlon]

I don't think the idea of dropping or changing the IP techniques came from you and I apologize if I gave you the impression that I did. It has been brought up in this thread and on this forum before so, perhaps I tailored my answer for a bunch of 'what if's". We seem to be in agreement that we take the base technique train it for basics movement, terget selection and understanding.We amp up the training for understanding and increased skill in application beyond a compliant partner. All this so that after we are attacked we can sit down and say hey maybe i used part of tis techniques when this happened or part of this one.What we know for sure is we wrecked a bad guy in less time than it takes to 'pull off' a full techniques and our basics were solid and our training proved true.BTW I am not entirely convinced of the veracit of the statement you quoted from BB magazine. Training is truth

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

The wrist break...yup, I see that possibly happening, if you pin correctly, and turn. The arm break/dislocation...sure. Not seeing the cracked jaw, unless you move that handsword up to the face, from the throat.

And of course, everyone will train stuff differently, so sure, its a bit of an assumption to say that everyone trains the same. My view is simply, the IP works fine, if everything is ideal. OTOH, I've seen threads with people, myself included, that the IP is a base, and we shouldnt be concerned with pulling off an IP, but instead, using parts of the tech.

Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms? If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.

Here is a clip from Vee Arnis Jitsu, that IMO, makes many good points.

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So, in the beginning, we have a discussion of a tech, in which part of the defense is a groin hit. Yet when David James is attacking the student, the groin shot isn't there, due to the nature of his attack. He then, at another point in the demo, sweeps the guy he's choking, down and continues to apply a choke.

This, IMO, (and I may be wrong, as I dont like to speak for others)is a good idea of what Ras is talking about. IMO, its rare that we see the other possibilities of what could happen during the defense. Instead, we see compliant partners.

one thing I would like to point out is that the black belt defending against the teacher shouting "where is your knee" repearedly, has no base to strike from and never even seems to look to establish one. That is something I imaginge that can be learned through the ideal phase

Just one thing that stuck out to me

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

The piece I think is a misnomer is the idea that all people train the ideal phase the same, treat the information the same, or even have the same information. It's an error in critical thinking to assume a shared phrase is a shared starting point.

I treasure the Ideal Phase, because of how I train it.. what the information means to me, and how I work with it. My next birthday will make 40 years of being at this. In that time, I too have trained in BJJ, Muay Thai, western boxing, etc. I have also been critical of standard teaching methods in kenpo. In fact, I'll venture to say most of the "product" out there is shyte. I'm sure there are people who think mine is, too.

HOWEVER... each time I went to Mr. P with a kvetch about the IP of some given technique being brutally flawed, he would open my eyes with some different way of looking at it... some way I had not yet percieved the information, or some bit of information that was lacking in my understanding of the IP. Big difference between saying "kenpo, as a system, is flawed", as opposed to "my understanding of the kenpo system is incomplete, and therefore my training and eprfomance are too."

I have been without camera and training padnah for several months now, focusing instead on stepping up to meet my families needs by growing my business. Got a camera just recently; now all I need is the training padnah. I will be glad to compare video notes with you. t cannot be my top priority, at this time, as I just signed a lease on a new practice location a few weeks back, and now gotta get bodies on the bench.

As soon as I get a body to bang on, and a moment to bang on them that doesn't sabotage the marketing efforts of a half-days time, I'll be in knee-deep.

^^^I like this guy!

I utterly agree with you in at least one area; there is a gargantuan difference between the idea that "Kenpo as a system is flawed" (which I completely disagree with) and saying:"My understanding of Kenpo is incomplete and therefore flawed." I would even add the caveat that my lack of pinnacle technical mastery and utter immaculate comprehension of Kenpo and anything else is so devastating that there are likely infinite variations and levels of my and our ignorance that we will NEVER alleviate.It's the path of attempting to alleviate my ignorance that is most rewarding to me.Like I tell my students and clients quite often:"I try to be less stupid and ignorant today than I was yesterday.I don't always succeed; but I always try."

However,a lack of flawless comprehension of Kenpo doesn't mean that I or many others aren't more than proficient in Kenpo (I know you didn't say that,I'm just making the point clear).Furthermore,my comments weren't about Kenpo the system,my comments were and are directed to the utility of the IP.Here is the essence of my position summed up in a few quick sentences:

The IP is inferior to the Functional Method because it isn't trained functionally,against real time resistance energy and motion.Therefore the functional expression of a Kenpo technique almost 100% of the time will look different than the IP variant of that same technique.,because the functional method is trained via sparring and other real world means in exactly the scenarios that a given technique is supposed to effectively address.The IP absolutely does not do this.Even if by some miracle one becomes competent using the IP? That same person is likely using a hybrid IP and functional method; and that person(s) would be MORE competent more quickly and more comprehensively using the functional method.


Here's the IP Captured Twigs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnxcbNP6Gf0&feature=related


Here's one of the BETTER IP Captured Twigs variants:

Here's a FUNCTIONAL basic Captured Twigs expression:

Here's the IP Alternatng Maces:

Here's a Functional Alternating Maces

See,there won't be THAT HUGE of a variance in effective combat expression of technique.The IP allows such a wide spectrum of expression because the practitioners of the IP don't have the litmus test,the reality check,of actually SPARRING with the IP technique.Witness boxing: Ali and Tyson have totally different expressions,but we can recognize when they jab and throw combos and we recognize their skill in their pursuit.

95% of this discussion between the IP and the FUNCTIONAL METHOD will evaporate if the IP exponents start showing themselves SPARRING against all comers WITH THEIR IP TECHNIQUES.The results will not be the resounding confirmation of IP practicality that they might assume it will be.Not even the argument that "well,self-defense is different than sparring is" can save the proponents of this approach.Know why? THEY'RE RIGHT.SD is FOREVER different than SPARRING.But the catch is: the IP METHOD CAN'T WITHSTAND UNIVERSAL ENERGETIC SPARRING.Know why? THE IP METHOD'S TECHNIQUES ARE BASED ON YOUR ASSAILANT DOING THINGS IN THE "IDEAL PHASE" which COMPLETELY ELIMINATES REAL WORLD RESISTANCE.Therefore if you took 100 people and taught them the IP and it looked like the above techniques? They'll fail to adequately defend themselves most of the time.AND IT GETS WORSE NOT BETTER IN SD SCENARIOS.The converse is true using the functional method in any area,not just martial arts.

 

[marlon]

Thanks for sharing. Your functional version of 'capturing twigs" attempts to address a number of what if's, and as such can never end. I could see a number of what ifs that you do not address and see some alignment things that I would consider an error. It is still quite good and demonstrates a sincere work ethic and a great deal of energy on your part. Some good stuff there. BTW the caturing twigs show did not look very good to my eyes. Again, I am not trained in AK.
What are the fundementals and principles you want your student to learn from your version that they can extrapolate to other scenarios and other aspects of teir training?
Thank you again

marlon

 

[Inkspill]

the techniques are templates. if you can't effectively use them, practice more and make sure everything is correct. of course, depending on who you're learning from, they might not know the correct formation of the basics. if they teach an inward block with the forearm near horizontal, you're not going to have much margin for error.

if the basics are incorrect it's not going to work. master the basics and practice enough and it will all fall into place. I think the techniques work well as is, for teaching purposes, of course this doesn't mean all Kenpo is going to be the same quality, depending on the teacher and the student. unfortunately, not everyone has access to learn from one of the greats, so I can see how people see some of the junk on youtube and have doubts. I have doubts when I see those vids too, but I also have a great teacher showing me the correct way, removing doubt, and feeling the effectiveness.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Thanks for sharing. Your functional version of 'capturing twigs" attempts to address a number of what if's, and as such can never end. I could see a number of what ifs that you do not address and see some alignment things that I would consider an error. It is still quite good and demonstrates a sincere work ethic and a great deal of energy on your part. Some good stuff there. BTW the caturing twigs show did not look very good to my eyes. Again, I am not trained in AK.
What are the fundementals and principles you want your student to learn from your version that they can extrapolate to other scenarios and other aspects of teir training?
Thank you again

marlon

The fact that you're not trained in AK,imho,is wholly immaterial to this discussion.In fact,it may be a major benefit because you...like me...may be wholly untouched by any personal inclination to follow in the unfortunately viral rampant intolerance and inflexible mindset that too many adherents to various Kenpo organizations actually and regularly engage in despite their rhetoric eschewing such behaviour and embracing the universality of martial arts and martial artists.Good for you,Marlon.


You're absolutely right in that the the specific iterations of what-if's can never end,so there is no way that you or I or anyone else or any combination of EVERYONE ELSE can come up with a tailored response for every specific situation.However,we can organize the infinity of responses into broad categories that we can rigorously train,which will then allow a direct and time tested and practiced response response to anything that includes or combines these categories.

My studies and reading strongly indicates that civilian self-defense falls largely into these primary categories: Mid distance weapons range,standup,clinch,seated,up-seated (one party is standing/elevated,the other is seted),seated-seated,standing-ground,seated-ground,ground-ground,multifights,armed,any combination of any/all of the above,escape,escape with the combo of any of the above,rescue from any single or combo of the above,rescue and escape with any single instance or combo of the above.These categories are also what I use to test my SD techniques.The spirituality,inner confidence,knowledge,questioning,questing,self-exploration,and lifelong personal growth that springs from the martial pursuit is what I want my students to learn and what emphatically and empirically accrues from a pursuit following this parameters.And it's ironically directly in accordance with the urgings of and writings of the masters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CQKW5QTJJU&feature=channel_video_title

 

[MJS]

one thing I would like to point out is that the black belt defending against the teacher shouting "where is your knee" repearedly, has no base to strike from and never even seems to look to establish one. That is something I imaginge that can be learned through the ideal phase

Just one thing that stuck out to me

Respectfully,
Marlon

Thats why I posted that clip. If this tech in that clip were done slower, in the IP, that base may've been there, but given the fact that he was attacked hard and fast, it didn't allow him to do much. But as you said, maybe he just wasnt trying, I dont know.

OTOH, even if he had established a base, everythings probably going to go south once he lifts his leg to throw the knee, no? I doubt the bad guy is going to stop his forward pressure even if the defender gets into a base.

 

[marlon]

Thats why I posted that clip. If this tech in that clip were done slower, in the IP, that base may've been there, but given the fact that he was attacked hard and fast, it didn't allow him to do much. But as you said, maybe he just wasnt trying, I dont know.

OTOH, even if he had established a base, everythings probably going to go south once he lifts his leg to throw the knee, no? I doubt the bad guy is going to stop his forward pressure even if the defender gets into a base.

I, I, omg. Once you establish your base why would you want to stop the forward momentum? I don't have this technique but brace redirect the frward motion or angle off slightly and let them run into your counter. It's so beautiful when that happens that i sometimes could cry. But why does it happen...hopefully because i made it happen, that's what we train to do. Contact is control. SK does a bit more msk manipulation than most of the AK i have seen.
The IP should have helped develop the how to step back and establish a base and then progressively been amped up focusing on that aspect of the technique especially, because it is how you survive the initial attack and then that show could not have happened
Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP? from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later. That seems unproductive. Yet, there are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters. So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's. I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to

Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP? from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later. That seems unproductive. Yet, there are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters. So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's. I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to

Marlon

I have NO IDEA if there's a specific definition in stone that GGMEP left for us regarding the IP other than the specific injunction about the IP being a "set of templates and not set in stone" from which we can physically and mentally ingrain all the principles of Kenpo.My contention is merely that we can do these things much faster,more powerfully,more obviously,and more credibly using a different training modality,which is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD.I believe that each and every one of the 72 SD sequences of EPAK need to be reinterpreted using the functional method and the resultant techniques are to be used as the base from which all other techniques and responses spring from: whether we look at it as dance or whatever we will be able to do whatever it is that we individually wish to do FAR BETTER because now we're using a method that is colossally more effective in achieving those infinite varied goals.

The Functional Method is to the IP what the unbridled power of the human mind performing mathematics is to an amoeba attempting the same thing.It's like having ultra supercomputers doing number crunching for you as opposed to calculating the distance from Earth to the outer reaches of the known universe by counting on your fingers and toes.It's immeasurably,permanently,and obviously superior.The problem is? When I say this,some people think I'm dissing mathematics.That's like saying that you're dissing physics because you use the tech and theories of Stephen Hawking instead of the material available to say...Isaac Newton.It's because you're down with physics that you're down with Hawking.Whe I promote the Functional Method in Kenpo,many people think that I'm dissing Kenpo or saying that the SD templates in Kenpo don't work or something else ludicrous.No...KENPO WORKS.It's THE TRAINING of the techniques that makes the difference in the real world.

Like it says in my sig and like I say in my Gym:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."

 

[MJS]

Is there an official guide of what one is supposed to learn with the IP? from what i am hearing it seems that some learn it like an empty form or a piece of a dance and then are somehow expected to b able to respond to an attacker later. That seems unproductive. Yet, there are others here who look at it differently and by all accounts are hard *** fighters. So, what is the AK standard that GM Parker taught about IP's. I ask because unlike us you have an almost universally revered founder to turn to

Marlon

Theres 'Big Red' which is a huge, red binder, that has all of the techs. in the system. Of course, this was a ref. tool. Doc would be a good person to ask on this.

Whats in 'big red' isn't necessarily gospel. I'm sure GM Parker taught everyone differently. In other words, someone who was more interested in getting rank, and not really learning the system, per se, would probably get things one way. Doc Chapel, who spent alot more in depth time with GM Parker, most likely got things differently.

 

[Inkspill]

what is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD that is being referrenced? would like more details please

I see the Self Defense Techniques as functional, and the method they are taught to be functional as well. of course, that depends on the student and the teacher, not all Kenpo is created equal.

depending on the school, we do have an official guide, the manual and teacher. at my club we practice in the air and on the body, moving through the 3 phases, stages, and states as skill level increases.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Theres 'Big Red' which is a huge, red binder, that has all of the techs. in the system. Of course, this was a ref. tool. Doc would be a good person to ask on this.

Whats in 'big red' isn't necessarily gospel. I'm sure GM Parker taught everyone differently. In other words, someone who was more interested in getting rank, and not really learning the system, per se, would probably get things one way. Doc Chapel, who spent alot more in depth time with GM Parker, most likely got things differently.

There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.

 

[MJS]

There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.

Yes, here it is.
http://www.pacifickenpo.com/Kenpo-Journal.html

Looks like its something worth having.

 

[MJS]

what is the FUNCTIONAL METHOD that is being referrenced? would like more details please

I see the Self Defense Techniques as functional, and the method they are taught to be functional as well. of course, that depends on the student and the teacher, not all Kenpo is created equal.

depending on the school, we do have an official guide, the manual and teacher. at my club we practice in the air and on the body, moving through the 3 phases, stages, and states as skill level increases.

Its alot to read, but here:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:

1) drilling. When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan. This is the learning phase. You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.

2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace. The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker. More pressure is added.

3) Your attacker is actively resisting. He is not letting you perform your textbook tech. Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.

Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.

 

[marlon]

Its alot to read, but here:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:

1) drilling. When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan. This is the learning phase. You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.

2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace. The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker. More pressure is added.

3) Your attacker is actively resisting. He is not letting you perform your textbook tech. Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.

Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.

My apologies, but what is the alternative way? How could there be anything very different for training?

 

[MJS]

My apologies, but what is the alternative way? How could there be anything very different for training?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me? Are you asking, if people dont train the way mentioned, then how do they train? If thats the question....I'd say they'd never move past what I said in #1. The attacker is 'compliant' meaning they just punch you and then stand like a statue, while you blast away with your technique. I'd say they would also not provide you with a realistic attack. Nothing pisses me off more, when someone goes to choke me and its a shoulder massage, not a choke. Sorry, but even when you're 'drilling' the attack should be realistic. At least if you're doing a choke, put your hands on the neck. LOL.

 

[Inkspill]

Its alot to read, but here:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

In a nutshell, the way techs should be practiced would be:

1) drilling. When you initially learn the tech, there is no resistance, everything goes according to plan. This is the learning phase. You make sure that you're footwork is right, stances, that you're hitting to the correct spot, for max. results, correct blocks, etc.

2) You gradually start to perform the tech at a quicker pace. The attack is coming in a bit quicker and you're executing your defense quicker. More pressure is added.

3) Your attacker is actively resisting. He is not letting you perform your textbook tech. Basically, you, as the defender, have to really make the tech work.

Like I said, the link is alot to read, but it gives a good idea of the FM.

sweet, we already do this at my school