Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono & Twin Kimono

[MJS]

If you take the view that AM and every technique is a mini form then naturally multiple applications of the same mechanics are to be explored, but that is not mere opportunistic and / or random changes without regard for and working out the mechanics and their effects. It should be specific recognition of the effects of the mechanics that the mini form has rather than changing the mini form based on what if's. as much as kempo fighting is not about techniques the methoodology of teching is that there are different mini forms prepared to discuss the what if's. Otherwise it becomes to easy to miss the dept of application of the catalogued information in the mini forms, including AM. i am assming because that is how our techniques are used and discussed in SK
My humble 2 cents...I am prepared for the blasting

Respectfully,
Marlon

I think this kinda goes back to having a technique for every possible attack. A defense if the guy punches you and steps forward, another one if he throws a cross, another one if he throws a cross but you're standing with your left leg forward, and so forth and so forth.

IMO, what you're suggesting (if I'm understanding correctly) works fine if the person knows whats happening. But when the spontaneous, unknown attack comes....

Again, I teach all the little goodies that are contained in the IP tech. But I like to take it a step further and teach my students to be able to use the same tech for a multitude of options. AM is taught for a step thru punch. but what happens when the guy throws a cross? You step back, attempting to block the punch, you'll no longer be in range for anything else. That being said, I should still be able to use the concepts of AM and adjust accordingly.

I want my students to be able to respond to whats happening at the moment and each moment after that, by not being bound by an IP tech, but instead, use the ideas and concepts that those techs teach, and just react, defending themselves.

 

[marlon]

I think this kinda goes back to having a technique for every possible attack. A defense if the guy punches you and steps forward, another one if he throws a cross, another one if he throws a cross but you're standing with your left leg forward, and so forth and so forth.

IMO, what you're suggesting (if I'm understanding correctly) works fine if the person knows whats happening. But when the spontaneous, unknown attack comes....

Again, I teach all the little goodies that are contained in the IP tech. But I like to take it a step further and teach my students to be able to use the same tech for a multitude of options. AM is taught for a step thru punch. but what happens when the guy throws a cross? You step back, attempting to block the punch, you'll no longer be in range for anything else. That being said, I should still be able to use the concepts of AM and adjust accordingly.

I want my students to be able to respond to whats happening at the moment and each moment after that, by not being bound by an IP tech, but instead, use the ideas and concepts that those techs teach, and just react, defending themselves.

No, no, i guess i wasn't clear. What I want t say is that the skill sets and differing targets and how to access them are taught through different techniques. The applications found in the mini forms would not be merely different targets just as the different applications of the regular forms do not show just a different place to strike. The different applications would be for example that back 2 knuckle to the chin, if the attackers arm is placed arcoss your center line could easily be a dislocation or break of the elbow...same movement but giving a different application. Simplified example I know and some of these same movements will require differing weight distribution et al...but I just want to clarify the point. As for spontaneous attacks, we respond with kempo not necessarily a particular named technique.

 

[ATACX GYM]

No, no, i guess i wasn't clear. What I want t say is that the skill sets and differing targets and how to access them are taught through different techniques. The applications found in the mini forms would not be merely different targets just as the different applications of the regular forms do not show just a different place to strike. The different applications would be for example that back 2 knuckle to the chin, if the attackers arm is placed arcoss your center line could easily be a dislocation or break of the elbow...same movement but giving a different application. Simplified example I know and some of these same movements will require differing weight distribution et al...but I just want to clarify the point. As for spontaneous attacks, we respond with kempo not necessarily a particular named technique.

Why are they taught through different techniques? Maybe I'm not getting it here.Ae you saying that say ALTER MACK (alternating maces) would be taught hitting the sternum and forehead with the reverse punch and backfist respectively,but if you hit the groin and nose with the same weapons,using the same block entry...this would be a different technique because the same weapons targeted different areas of the opponent's body?

 

[MJS]

I still may be missing it here as well. My intent is not to have a bunch of techs for a bunch of different attacks (which is what we have now) but instead to be able to take 1 tech and still using the ideas of the original tech, come up with other defenses.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I hope to get an answer here...what do you think about this,Doc?

 

[Twin Fist]

so take one tech and learn how to adapt it to various attacks?

of the same type or different types?

for example, alternating maces (2 hand grab or push) adapted for use vs a left hook?

 

[ATACX GYM]

so take one tech and learn how to adapt it to various attacks?

of the same type or different types?

for example, alternating maces (2 hand grab or push) adapted for use vs a left hook?

I do exactly that,and have defenses vs the hook.I have my ALTER MACK (alternating maces) defend vs a variety of hand strikes,grabs,takedown attempts,weaponry,ground techniques,etc...and it's largely the same technique.Slip trap check evade or roll the hook,parry or outside block it,thrust punch and back knuckle run off by both hands in succession,kicks and subs added in where appropriate.Take the base technique,put it in different scenarios and play with it.Functionally.Lol.

 

[Twin Fist]

most things will work with some thought, but there will be cases... i mean, i dont care who you are, making squeezing the peach work off a rt punch? no reason to even try since there are literally dozens of techniques and variations that would be better in that case.

 

[ATACX GYM]

most things will work with some thought, but there will be cases... i mean, i dont care who you are, making squeezing the peach work off a rt punch? no reason to even try since there are literally dozens of techniques and variations that would be better in that case.

Most instances I can think of off hand from prior experience? I tend to agree.But there may be that ESCAPE FROM CROWDED CLUB scenario where you're not really trying to engage but escape,some bad guy pops out from the crowd,swings a bottle or clubbing right hand,you roll it...he's off balance AND taller than you...aaaaand it's PEACH GRABBIN TIIIME!! If you can land a ridgehand to the nads in a situation? Then you can Grab Them Thar Peaches.Aaargh har har!

 

[Twin Fist]

i have been throwing the ridgehand to the groin for years in sparring....

 

[ATACX GYM]

i have been throwing the ridgehand to the groin for years in sparring....

There you are.Many people I know have been clocking other unsuspecting nads with ridgehands,and we can change that ridgehand to nad squeezery yankery and shaking the nads like dice you're about to roll in a dice game.

 

[Inkspill]

can you think of a reason why you would execute an underhand reverse handsword to the groin? I've found there are reasons for everything in Kenpo. before we go around changing everything, we have to examine the why's.

 

[marlon]

Why are they taught through different techniques? Maybe I'm not getting it here.Ae you saying that say ALTER MACK (alternating maces) would be taught hitting the sternum and forehead with the reverse punch and backfist respectively,but if you hit the groin and nose with the same weapons,using the same block entry...this would be a different technique because the same weapons targeted different areas of the opponent's body?

I actually said not "just" striking different targets as there are other applications for the movements. that being said effectively striking different targets may require different entries, weight distribution, foot work...
Keep in mind that sk has a great deal less set techniques than AK

 

[marlon]

I do exactly that,and have defenses vs the hook.I have my ALTER MACK (alternating maces) defend vs a variety of hand strikes,grabs,takedown attempts,weaponry,ground techniques,etc...and it's largely the same technique.Slip trap check evade or roll the hook,parry or outside block it,thrust punch and back knuckle run off by both hands in succession,kicks and subs added in where appropriate.Take the base technique,put it in different scenarios and play with it.Functionally.Lol.

Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.

 

[MJS]

Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.

Your typical EPAK school will have 24 techs/belt, in addition to the katas/sets. Again, IMO, you could cut that list in half and and then some. LOL. My point, and I believe AGs as well, instead of having numerous techs that address numerous attacks, be able to adapt 1 tech to numerous situations.

For example...if you were able to adapt a punch tech to fit other types of punches, grabs, etc, yes, in the end, you'll still end up with numerous techs, but the main difference, IMO anyways, is that you're simply adapting on the fly, vs. having to sort thru a huge list of techs, trying to process the attack, try to process the response, etc.

Just like a kata....you should be able to come up with multiple applications for the moves in a kata. Short 2 in the Parker system....step forward, right inward block, right outward handsword. That move should be able to be applied to punches and grabs.

For me, and the people that I teach, my focus is on the spontaneous response/reaction. Drill the basics, to fit a number situations...that IMO, is the way to go.

 

[marlon]

Your typical EPAK school will have 24 techs/belt, in addition to the katas/sets. Again, IMO, you could cut that list in half and and then some. LOL. My point, and I believe AGs as well, instead of having numerous techs that address numerous attacks, be able to adapt 1 tech to numerous situations.

For example...if you were able to adapt a punch tech to fit other types of punches, grabs, etc, yes, in the end, you'll still end up with numerous techs, but the main difference, IMO anyways, is that you're simply adapting on the fly, vs. having to sort thru a huge list of techs, trying to process the attack, try to process the response, etc.

Just like a kata....you should be able to come up with multiple applications for the moves in a kata. Short 2 in the Parker system....step forward, right inward block, right outward handsword. That move should be able to be applied to punches and grabs.

For me, and the people that I teach, my focus is on the spontaneous response/reaction. Drill the basics, to fit a number situations...that IMO, is the way to go.

i think that we are pretty much saying the same thing. What I was trying to point out a few posts ago was that while finding a different target to strike is nice finding a different application of the movement in a particular technique, is more fascinating to me eg. a downward hammer strike could be an arm lock vs. hammer to the temple could be a hammer to the kidney. Because i already have a technique that shows me that a hammer to the kidney is an effective strike, and it shows me the mechanics and positioning needed to make it work optimally. Hopefully, i have explained myself better this time.
respectfully,
marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Then I don't get why you teach some 60 techniques per belt.

MJS explained a good 2/3 of my reasoning,but I also include techniques from judo,bjj,wrestling,tkd,shaolin kempo,(yes...sk,which I hold a brown in),boxing,Muay Thai,kali,hapkido,tang soo do,hung gar,aikido,capoeira,and principles of seite-ryu iaido and fencing (almost all of which I hold instructor/coach/black belt+rank in) as essential aspects of my curriculum.This expands my base number of techniques per rank,but it all fits together very logically.Oftentimes my students can execute all or the overwhelming majority of each technique per rank in a single unbroken flow.My Kenpo karate (EPAK+my Uncle and Grandmaster Bobby Thomas+Sijo Muhammed) variant is the base art for everything I've subsequently added to it.

 

[KenpoKevin]

Is the IP tech assuming that when the person grabs, the attacker will fully extend their arms? If the person grabs and is going the pull in/push out, but not fully extending their arms, we're probably not going to get the break.

The initial step to the rear with the left foot and the settling of the base assists in the lock out. It's designed as a "heavy drop".. to get attacker off balance, while at the same time, get YOU in balance. We want to get that guy stretched out so it's tough for him to throw that right punch. Then it's all about "torque". We may not get the break on the left, but we may get a sprain or at the very least cancel the right for that instant. If he pulls us back in, then it becomes the end of Twin Kimono or Mace of Aggression, or Raking mace.

I see that a lot of Kenpo guys don't realize that IP of some techniques are the "What if" for another. I used to be one of those guys.

This technique does not assume a left hand lock out in IP. Conquering Shield, however, does.

Peace out Gents...

 

[TaiChiTJ]

There were also subsequent training manuals, which would list the concepts, principles, and study notes for each technique. Mr. Hale compiled them into a comprehensive journal, "The Kenpo Journal". Punch that into google or yahoo and you will have no trouble finding his site.

I am not a kenpo guy, I am enjoying reading this awesome thread. I jumped into google and sho 'nuf the kenpo journal is the first thing that came up. Quite an information base this kenpo guy has put together. Found an interesting quote from the journal, from GGM Parker:
Ed Parker on Techniques:
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]I teach Kenpo, not for the sake of teaching the techniques, but for the principles involved in them. And even then, these principles must be altered to fit the individual.
The reason I give my techniques names is because there are certain sequences associated with these terms. If I told a student tomorrow that I was going to teach him a counter version to a double hand grab, it's not as meaningful as when I say I'm going to teach him ‘Parting Wings.’
You’ve got to know how to vary things. A lot of the techniques I’ve worked with, they’re ideas, they’re not rules. At any given time, any of my moves can change from defense to offense, of-fense to defense.
Martial artists, and Kenpo people especially, become so involved in doing the techniques exactly right in such and such amount of time, that they get caught in a pattern that they can’t break. That’s not what they’re for. Specific moves, specific techniques are based, like the ABC’s in the English language or standard football plays.
You have to have a point of reference and from there the combi-nations are endless and limited only by universal laws, laws that you can’t change.
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Very cool. That is what alot of the posts here have been saying.
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