Technique Discussion: Lone Kimono & Twin Kimono

[MJS]

I usedto show the IP a lot more than I do nowadays,but sometimes I still show the IP as a way to teach my students to be alert for the kind of craptasticness that pemeates the arts,and I remind my students when we go to tourneys to scout our opposition.We have a big laugh about it,tbh.Then I go directy to "B". There IS no justification for starting with any form of nonfunctional expression period. In every regard,the FM is superior.In the introductory phase when you're showing perception stances movement? The FM is superior because you have a superior understanding of both the real world attacks,defenses,physical movements,and the kinds of things that need to be perceived AND you KNOW WHY that's the case.You can convey that to your students stat.Lol.If you take a outside block and a reverse punch? You can teach them how to block a wide variety of assualts with the block and crack your attacker with the reverse punch.It gives you a perception,depth,understanding,and versatility that is beyond the grasp of the IP exponents.I swear to God,I had many IP exponents vociferously and rudely tell me that I was doing Attacking Mace wrong because I did it not only from any block or no block at all,I did it not only from the inside,but from any direction,seated,from the clinch,on the ground,with and against any hand held weapon,etc. etc. until all the primary basics in my Gym were addressed.I am NOT kidding.One guy went so far as to put it on video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeEYgqQb6M&feature=watch_response


I get this kind of thing all the time.Swear tuh God.

Here is my response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related

Hey Ras,

Just watched that first clip. Yes, thats Clyde. He, and a few other Tatumites, used to be members here. Perhaps this is best saved for the IP technique thread, but anyways...I'll say it here. He commented to you in one of those quotes, that there is always another IP tech to fall back on, in the event something goes wrong with the first IP tech. For myself, I teach the IP. But, I dont harp on it for 50yrs like some people. And thats their choice. I teach the IP, and then *I* like to move on so as to get people to thinking outside the box. Using the basics, I'll cover other options, possible attacks, etc. I'm not looking for another IP, and frankly, I dont understand why people get so bound by the IPs. Some people talk about internalizing the techs. How long does that take, given the fact that we have hundreds of them? A few months? A year? 30yrs? IMO, whats more important to internalize, is the basics, so when the poop hits the fan, you will fall back on instinct, rather than have to sort thru a list of techs.

I think you and I are both getting people to the FM, you're just going on a quicker route, which is fine.

 

[Doc]

I'm all ears, if you're willing to give a little clue on a) if you do this tech at your school, how you perform it and b) how to make the tech better, to get the most out of it.

In these type of "hands on" assaults, the Psychology of Confrontation teaches us the Primary Initial Goal (P.I.G.) is "intimidation." I ask my students all the time first, "What's the PIG?" and second, "What does he need to do to accomplish his PIG?"

The answer significantly changes the dynamics of a simple sterile studio grab, to a strike with the open hand, then followed by the actual grab. "A grab is never JUST a grab." In reality the attacker is trying to grab quickly to gain control, and the open hand strike serves the dual purpose of knocking you off balance, (a form of control), and whatever physical and emotional discomfort the strike imparts as well, as the attacker attempts to dominate the victim psychologically and physically, and "feels" them out for a reaction. He is anticipating no retaliatory reaction from the victim, but is prepared with an additional assault in case he has misjudged the victims demeanor.

Thus the scenario is designed to teach how to absorb the precursor strike, and the accompanying Body Momentum that drives you rearward, and recover and establish a sound Platform married to a structured Upper Platform, in preparation for retaliation while lulling the attacker into a false sense of security that he has been successful in his intimidation tactic.

The "how" requires specific footwork, along with specific PAM's (Platform Aligning Mechanisms) on the Lower Platform, in conjunction with very specific arm movement Indices or Indexes of the upper body to align and marry the Platforms, and prepare for an unanticipated counter that will;

1. Disrupt his Visual Cortex Sensor
2. Create Spatial Distortion
3. Change the shape of the hand sensor to put his upper platform into a Disassociated State.
4. Control his width, and negate his opposite hand.
5. Control his height through a minor manipulation of the hand/wrist.
6. Control his depth through a minor manipulation of the arm/shoulder.

All accomplished by moving off the Line of Resistance, in an instant while storing Torque Energy in our Lower Platform that can be unleashed and returned to drive the lead hand strike, which sets up the Index Break.

In my teaching, we have scrapped the word "Ideal" because the term is subjective. In out "Default" scenario technique execution, the Default Techniques is designed to take into consideration minor adjustments that may need to be made, thus eliminating spurious "what if" questions, and any serious alteration is addressed in additional Default Scenarios of execution lessons.

Thus the Default Technique serves as a Functional Archive of study material, for present and future generations of students, as an "encyclopedia" of information. Any adjustments in the Encyclopedia are made by the experienced and knowledge of the hierarchy of our system, and the same occurs with the precursor "Dictionary" level of Technique information. Thus Techniques are multi-tiered moving from Dictionary Techniques, to Encyclopedia Techniques, while insuring all are supremely functional, and lessons learned at the Dictionary Stage are carried into the Encyclopedia Stage to make them easier to understand and physically digest. This cuts against the grain of "Kenpo Karate" because we have a "hard" curriculum that allows adjustments only for Geometrical Discrepancies of height, girth, mass, and gender, and those individual adjustments are taught within the framework of the Default Scenario to the individuals who are in need of a tailored mechanism, by someone qualified to make those adjustments.

 

[marlon]

Sorry, but you are clearly incorrect, and it's OK, as long as you can justify it in your own mind. The Ideal Phase serves a purpose within the system, as per Mr. Parker himself. It is to encapsulate the application of basics as expressions of the concepts and principles of motion. They are designed to be mini laboratories, in which discussions take place around how natural weapons are deployed for a specific efffect, within a given context. That is the FUNCTIONAL definition of the ideal phase of any self-defense technique within the Parker system. His words -- not mine -- are that, if you ever try to use 5 Swords against a punch, then you have missed the point of the system entirely. The techniques are not meant to teach this-for-that solutions to attacks, making the whole "applying the ideal, functionally" position a moot one. They are meant to teach you how to move. And, specifically, how to move in relationship to an ever-changing attackers actions and reactions to the flow of impact and energy in an altercation.

Ya know something marathon runners do? Study technique. The technique of breathing; technique of gait, and modifying gait to levels of fatigue. etc. They study how to best utilize arms during swing phases of running, how to best land their heel, how high to raise their feet for ground clearance before kicking it forward, all of it. In running, they do this in clinics, or seminars, or with lotsa reading and experimentation. In fact, if you ever get really bored and have too much time on your hands, apply for a years subscription to the NSCA's or ASCM's research publication journals... hours of boring reading about one manner of movement versus another. They (runners) are functional AFTER they address the technical details... otherwise, they hurt themselves. Foot slap versus heel-toe? Have to learn it some time before they start putting dozens of miles on their sneakers. Otherwise, they jack their bodies up, and never become runners worth a piss.

In kenpo, these "how to clinics" are the instructional sessions where the ideal is used to demonstrate a principle theme, then successive coursework looks at either adapting the Ideal to a number of contingencies (what ifs), or at adjusting operational biomechanics to move the application of the basics within the technique to "even if" levels of performance.

The piece I think you're missing is the in-between. Yes, you can teach kenpo basics to someone, and start them off immediately in fighting to apply them... best way to teach someone to learn how to swim is to throw them in the water. BUT!!! that will NOT develop an Olympic-level expertise. Breaking it down to having them work on kicking in the pool, stroke past their body, lifting their arm out of the water just so, placing it back in the water just so, how the hand MUST be formed to move the body optimally accross the surface of the water while minimizing drag by swimming too deeply under the surface... these are all technical aspects that are addressed in training, that must be attended to slowly, and engrained properly, in order for a swimmer to go from a weekend water-hole puddle-jumper, to a high school competitor, to a competitive level college swimmer, to an Olympic hopeful. Coaches break down the minutae, because both God and the Devil are in the details. That breakdown takes place, in kenpo, in the Ideal Phase discussions.

You are only half right. If I just want to develop a guy who can defend himself against a broad range of attacks, I'm not even going to teach him kenpo. I'm going to show him some kickboxing, a couple wrestling maneuvers and finishing holds, then put gloves on him and start kicking his ***! Then for the next level of training, I'm going to bring in a couple buddies, and we're just gonna jump him a couple times a week, with a little time between beatings to heal. When all is said and done, he will be able to apply a small range of options against a lot of different possibilities. But he still won't be a kenpoist.

Mr. Parker called kenpo, "The thinking mans martial art". And the lessons contained in the starting point of the IP, then later in the extrapolations that explore application of the core concepts and principles accross contexts and scenarios, is where the thinking takes place. Think back to the stages of learning... the first being "Embryonic." Adult learning theory applied to complex coordinative maneuvers with a multiplicity of variations possible from any starting point requires a... ummm... what's the things I'm looking for... oh yeah STARTING POINT!!!

If I put gloves, a mouthpiece and cup on a guy, and start knocking the bejeezus out of him, he will innately start trying to keep his hands between my fists and his head. But that doesn't make it kenpo. At some point, I have to stop whupping on him and say, "Here... when I do this to you, try this in response to protect yourself". That the Ideal... a discussion about "How to". During that same chat, I might introduce him to the idea of "angle of incidence", getting his blocks to stop my punches at perpendicular angles of contact; or I might introduce him to the differences between a parry and a block; or to counter-attacking me by throwing things at diffferent height zones, instead of always trying to punch down the pipe (all concepts and principles of motion). When I next resume throwing bombs at his head to make sure he uses the tools I just gave him, that's functional.

Sparring with a technique? Nah. Technique application is meant to be injurious. FMA has interweaving hand patterns that fit that rapid-fire repeated attack sequencing function just fine, without compromising the intensity of ownership and injury-reliance built into the Parker system. I would offer that, having watched your videos of applying SD techs to sparring, you have already sacrificed the learning field for C&P like "strike manipulation", "contact manipulation", and "control manipulation" that are core essential aspects to understanding the application of kenpo in personal combat. Yet, while sparring, you could ostensibly use them all. Conundrum, eh?

I don't mind redesigning self-defense techniques -- hell, that's what they are for. You are supposed to reach a point in your studies where you stop waiting for the answer to be handed to you, and set out to seek better quality answers on your own... both within the system, and without -- Mr. Parker was an avid student of the arts, always exploring and absorbing, right up to his last days. My objection is modification before understanding. My big chubby for self-defense techniques has always been Purpose -- what is the Purpose of this technique? Everytime I asked Mr. Parker to walk me through a technique, he opened the discussion with the phrase, "This technique is meant to teach you how to... [insert some specific skill about here]". The things were, "generate power from your legs, and transfer it to a whipping action with your arms", or, "start your attacker backpeddling, and not let the pressure up until you're ready to release him", or "introduce you to ways for getting past a guy who is trying to block you from getting through a doorway (the techniques from that conversation were Unfurling Crane and Flashing Wings, btw)". Not once... NOT ONE TIME!!! did he ever say or imply that the technique, as designed, was meant to be a self-contained self-defense scenario, as in "this is a defense against a choke". The purpose of Crashing Wings was to teach the student that it is easier to mess with a guys balance if you marry it to your own, first... NOT as a defense against a bearhug from behind. The Purpose of Lone Kimono was to teach the beginner "the lesson of Bridges -- anything extending between Point A and Point B is a bridge, and bridges are meant to be broken." Twin Kimono? To power figure-8 upper carriage momentum from action generated in the lower carriage. NOT a defense against a push or grab. The moves as reactions are finite. The concepts and principles, once internalized, are globally applicable, accross contexts. A Boxer with his back to the ropes can throw a flurry using Mr. Parkers "purpose" from Twin Kimono, and use the footwork to make his hooks land like thunder as he chisels his way out of the corner. A grappler can apply this to how he shrimps, creating momentum through his whole body, and not just wiggling one part. The techniques are limited -- the C&P are universally applicable, limited only by the understanding of the practitioner, first off, and their ingenuity, second.

Rather than being a solution that's ever supposed to be taken so seriously as an end-all, they a starting places for conversation about how to use your body, skillfully and intelligently, in a given context, in relationship to circumstances dictated either by the attacker, or by us from how we hit or moved the attacker... or ourselves, or a change in the environment.

I have been chuckling about all the discourse on Captured Twigs, recalling a time I asked him -- notebook in hand and ready to write -- what the purpose of the technique was. His response was, "to teach beginners to do SOMETHING, not just stand there and freeze like a deer in the headlights." Have heard that echoed since then by a couple of his seniors, who were all way closer to him than I ever was. Considering how expansive some of his answers could be, I haven't tried to be good at CT since. Just do SOMETHING.

I certainly don't see any point in turning my back on someone in sparring and trying to apply it there. I would rather spend the time drilling on turning to face my work, then getting really good at leaving my back to an attacker.

But hey... it's a starting point. Just like it was meant to be. A starting point in the Embryonic stage of learning. You know... embryo... not even a baby yet... the START of an organisms journey into a given field of experience.

Oh. One more thing. The Embryonic learning stage isn't a static stage; it changes with introduction to new material, and new applications of old material. You could take an expert-level practitioner -- say, a black belt -- and demonstrate a new manner of applying an old movement, that reflects a new way of doing it based on a principle or concept they may not have been exposed to before, and that expert-level practitioner could be said to be embryonic in their understanding and application of that new-to-them C&P.

In short, you're horribly incorrect in shooting down the "IP as a starting point" thing. It was Mr. Parkers contention that learning had to start somewhere, and the starting point function of the IP is internally consistent with Mr. Parkers descriptions of his own art. But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In kenpo, we just call it "tailoring", and it often gets done early on by folks who never got the whole picture, and so have to tweak it to make it work or to be at peace with the material in their model of the world.

Cute story (for me)... most of the guys prolly already heard it on here. I have never liked the extensions for my own reasons, so made up my own.... take a dozen or so judo throws and train the hell out of them, take the best "mexican hat dances" that are in the extensions, a couple finishing holds, and some power-breaking blows, and re-write them: Base tech + throw+ tap-dance to finishing hold or "Hulk Smash" shot, then screw covering out... draw your sidearm, and use the unconscious or deceased body for cover as you scan the environment for the next target. Worked great for the contexts I was training in and for. Mr. Parker called me on it, and made me demo my take on his system. At the end, he complimented me on it. Also added a caveat, "Just don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo... I got a lotta guys paying me a lot of money for that name".

Take home lesson? If you change it, it's yours. Some would say, if you HAVE TO change it, you probably never "got it" in the first place... that things not broken don't need fixing. Mr. Parker didn't say that, though he DID say, on multiple occasions, that everybody has different understandings, and everybody can only do the best they can, with what they have to work with. Some approaches fit different contexts better than others. But if you make such substantial modifications to a body of work, such that it no longer reflects the originators intent around his own creation, at least have the decency to drop his moniker from the end product.

"I can tell you what to think, or teach you HOW to think. I can teach you a move, or teach you HOW to move." -- SGM Ed Parker, Sr.

Kenpo is NOT the sequence of moves... never has been; the sequences were just there so we would have a common media of discussion within which to explore HOW one ought to move, in order to best utilize the bodys best potential. Kenpo is about HOW to move. I see people all the time doing the sequences, but failing at moving the way Mr. Parker tried ad nauseum to coach people to move.

I wonder how many swim coaches are banging their heads against the wall in frustration, because no matter how many times they tell the immensely talented mook in the pool how to twist his wrist while hiking his opposite hip to gain more skate across the surface in order to improve his time, the guy just doesn't get it. The athlete is still convinced the path to becoming a better technician is just a matter of ten more laps, with more intensity.

Ok sir, you don't talk enough at all!! I mean that with all sincerity. Your post does two key things for me. 1. It lets me know that though it has been not entirely clearly defined, my joourney is in the right direction.
2. You just helped me "up" my level of teaching and training. i have a clearer directional focus through which I may cull more out of my techniques and forms. Thank you!


I have to say that between you and Doc my initial thought to "not" change the default techniques before understanding them well enough and use the techniques to teach kempo and not teach kempo as the tecniques has been strongly re enforced. I have not found a technique that has not taught me more and more. I consider that after over 20 years of training and study, i am not qualified to change a technique. I am learning from my kempo, everyday. I am getting better at "how" through the techniques and forms.

BTW what does "prolly" mean?

Much respect
Marlon

 

[Doc]

Ok sir, you don't talk enough at all!! I mean that with all sincerity. Your post does two key things for me. 1. It lets me know that though it has been not entirely clearly defined, my joourney is in the right direction.
2. You just helped me "up" my level of teaching and training. i have a clearer directional focus through which I may cull more out of my techniques and forms. Thank you!


I have to say that between you and Doc my initial thought to "not" change the default techniques before understanding them well enough and use the techniques to teach kempo and not teach kempo as the tecniques has been strongly re enforced. I have not found a technique that has not taught me more and more. I consider that after over 20 years of training and study, i am not qualified to change a technique. I am learning from my kempo, everyday. I am getting better at "how" through the techniques and forms.

BTW what does "prolly" mean?

Much respect
Marlon

Crouch-speak for "probably."

 

[ATACX GYM]

Sorry, but you are clearly incorrect, and it's OK, as long as you can justify it in your own mind. The Ideal Phase serves a purpose within the system, as per Mr. Parker himself. It is to encapsulate the application of basics as expressions of the concepts and principles of motion. They are designed to be mini laboratories, in which discussions take place around how natural weapons are deployed for a specific efffect, within a given context. That is the FUNCTIONAL definition of the ideal phase of any self-defense technique within the Parker system. His words -- not mine -- are that, if you ever try to use 5 Swords against a punch, then you have missed the point of the system entirely. The techniques are not meant to teach this-for-that solutions to attacks, making the whole "applying the ideal, functionally" position a moot one. They are meant to teach you how to move. And, specifically, how to move in relationship to an ever-changing attackers actions and reactions to the flow of impact and energy in an altercation.

Ya know something marathon runners do? Study technique. The technique of breathing; technique of gait, and modifying gait to levels of fatigue. etc. They study how to best utilize arms during swing phases of running, how to best land their heel, how high to raise their feet for ground clearance before kicking it forward, all of it. In running, they do this in clinics, or seminars, or with lotsa reading and experimentation. In fact, if you ever get really bored and have too much time on your hands, apply for a years subscription to the NSCA's or ASCM's research publication journals... hours of boring reading about one manner of movement versus another. They (runners) are functional AFTER they address the technical details... otherwise, they hurt themselves. Foot slap versus heel-toe? Have to learn it some time before they start putting dozens of miles on their sneakers. Otherwise, they jack their bodies up, and never become runners worth a piss.

In kenpo, these "how to clinics" are the instructional sessions where the ideal is used to demonstrate a principle theme, then successive coursework looks at either adapting the Ideal to a number of contingencies (what ifs), or at adjusting operational biomechanics to move the application of the basics within the technique to "even if" levels of performance.

The piece I think you're missing is the in-between. Yes, you can teach kenpo basics to someone, and start them off immediately in fighting to apply them... best way to teach someone to learn how to swim is to throw them in the water. BUT!!! that will NOT develop an Olympic-level expertise. Breaking it down to having them work on kicking in the pool, stroke past their body, lifting their arm out of the water just so, placing it back in the water just so, how the hand MUST be formed to move the body optimally accross the surface of the water while minimizing drag by swimming too deeply under the surface... these are all technical aspects that are addressed in training, that must be attended to slowly, and engrained properly, in order for a swimmer to go from a weekend water-hole puddle-jumper, to a high school competitor, to a competitive level college swimmer, to an Olympic hopeful. Coaches break down the minutae, because both God and the Devil are in the details. That breakdown takes place, in kenpo, in the Ideal Phase discussions.

You are only half right. If I just want to develop a guy who can defend himself against a broad range of attacks, I'm not even going to teach him kenpo. I'm going to show him some kickboxing, a couple wrestling maneuvers and finishing holds, then put gloves on him and start kicking his ***! Then for the next level of training, I'm going to bring in a couple buddies, and we're just gonna jump him a couple times a week, with a little time between beatings to heal. When all is said and done, he will be able to apply a small range of options against a lot of different possibilities. But he still won't be a kenpoist.

Mr. Parker called kenpo, "The thinking mans martial art". And the lessons contained in the starting point of the IP, then later in the extrapolations that explore application of the core concepts and principles accross contexts and scenarios, is where the thinking takes place. Think back to the stages of learning... the first being "Embryonic." Adult learning theory applied to complex coordinative maneuvers with a multiplicity of variations possible from any starting point requires a... ummm... what's the things I'm looking for... oh yeah STARTING POINT!!!

If I put gloves, a mouthpiece and cup on a guy, and start knocking the bejeezus out of him, he will innately start trying to keep his hands between my fists and his head. But that doesn't make it kenpo. At some point, I have to stop whupping on him and say, "Here... when I do this to you, try this in response to protect yourself". That the Ideal... a discussion about "How to". During that same chat, I might introduce him to the idea of "angle of incidence", getting his blocks to stop my punches at perpendicular angles of contact; or I might introduce him to the differences between a parry and a block; or to counter-attacking me by throwing things at diffferent height zones, instead of always trying to punch down the pipe (all concepts and principles of motion). When I next resume throwing bombs at his head to make sure he uses the tools I just gave him, that's functional.

Sparring with a technique? Nah. Technique application is meant to be injurious. FMA has interweaving hand patterns that fit that rapid-fire repeated attack sequencing function just fine, without compromising the intensity of ownership and injury-reliance built into the Parker system. I would offer that, having watched your videos of applying SD techs to sparring, you have already sacrificed the learning field for C&P like "strike manipulation", "contact manipulation", and "control manipulation" that are core essential aspects to understanding the application of kenpo in personal combat. Yet, while sparring, you could ostensibly use them all. Conundrum, eh?

I don't mind redesigning self-defense techniques -- hell, that's what they are for. You are supposed to reach a point in your studies where you stop waiting for the answer to be handed to you, and set out to seek better quality answers on your own... both within the system, and without -- Mr. Parker was an avid student of the arts, always exploring and absorbing, right up to his last days. My objection is modification before understanding. My big chubby for self-defense techniques has always been Purpose -- what is the Purpose of this technique? Everytime I asked Mr. Parker to walk me through a technique, he opened the discussion with the phrase, "This technique is meant to teach you how to... [insert some specific skill about here]". The things were, "generate power from your legs, and transfer it to a whipping action with your arms", or, "start your attacker backpeddling, and not let the pressure up until you're ready to release him", or "introduce you to ways for getting past a guy who is trying to block you from getting through a doorway (the techniques from that conversation were Unfurling Crane and Flashing Wings, btw)". Not once... NOT ONE TIME!!! did he ever say or imply that the technique, as designed, was meant to be a self-contained self-defense scenario, as in "this is a defense against a choke". The purpose of Crashing Wings was to teach the student that it is easier to mess with a guys balance if you marry it to your own, first... NOT as a defense against a bearhug from behind. The Purpose of Lone Kimono was to teach the beginner "the lesson of Bridges -- anything extending between Point A and Point B is a bridge, and bridges are meant to be broken." Twin Kimono? To power figure-8 upper carriage momentum from action generated in the lower carriage. NOT a defense against a push or grab. The moves as reactions are finite. The concepts and principles, once internalized, are globally applicable, accross contexts. A Boxer with his back to the ropes can throw a flurry using Mr. Parkers "purpose" from Twin Kimono, and use the footwork to make his hooks land like thunder as he chisels his way out of the corner. A grappler can apply this to how he shrimps, creating momentum through his whole body, and not just wiggling one part. The techniques are limited -- the C&P are universally applicable, limited only by the understanding of the practitioner, first off, and their ingenuity, second.

Rather than being a solution that's ever supposed to be taken so seriously as an end-all, they a starting places for conversation about how to use your body, skillfully and intelligently, in a given context, in relationship to circumstances dictated either by the attacker, or by us from how we hit or moved the attacker... or ourselves, or a change in the environment.

I have been chuckling about all the discourse on Captured Twigs, recalling a time I asked him -- notebook in hand and ready to write -- what the purpose of the technique was. His response was, "to teach beginners to do SOMETHING, not just stand there and freeze like a deer in the headlights." Have heard that echoed since then by a couple of his seniors, who were all way closer to him than I ever was. Considering how expansive some of his answers could be, I haven't tried to be good at CT since. Just do SOMETHING.

I certainly don't see any point in turning my back on someone in sparring and trying to apply it there. I would rather spend the time drilling on turning to face my work, then getting really good at leaving my back to an attacker.

But hey... it's a starting point. Just like it was meant to be. A starting point in the Embryonic stage of learning. You know... embryo... not even a baby yet... the START of an organisms journey into a given field of experience.

Oh. One more thing. The Embryonic learning stage isn't a static stage; it changes with introduction to new material, and new applications of old material. You could take an expert-level practitioner -- say, a black belt -- and demonstrate a new manner of applying an old movement, that reflects a new way of doing it based on a principle or concept they may not have been exposed to before, and that expert-level practitioner could be said to be embryonic in their understanding and application of that new-to-them C&P.

In short, you're horribly incorrect in shooting down the "IP as a starting point" thing. It was Mr. Parkers contention that learning had to start somewhere, and the starting point function of the IP is internally consistent with Mr. Parkers descriptions of his own art. But it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In kenpo, we just call it "tailoring", and it often gets done early on by folks who never got the whole picture, and so have to tweak it to make it work or to be at peace with the material in their model of the world.

Cute story (for me)... most of the guys prolly already heard it on here. I have never liked the extensions for my own reasons, so made up my own.... take a dozen or so judo throws and train the hell out of them, take the best "mexican hat dances" that are in the extensions, a couple finishing holds, and some power-breaking blows, and re-write them: Base tech + throw+ tap-dance to finishing hold or "Hulk Smash" shot, then screw covering out... draw your sidearm, and use the unconscious or deceased body for cover as you scan the environment for the next target. Worked great for the contexts I was training in and for. Mr. Parker called me on it, and made me demo my take on his system. At the end, he complimented me on it. Also added a caveat, "Just don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo... I got a lotta guys paying me a lot of money for that name".

Take home lesson? If you change it, it's yours. Some would say, if you HAVE TO change it, you probably never "got it" in the first place... that things not broken don't need fixing. Mr. Parker didn't say that, though he DID say, on multiple occasions, that everybody has different understandings, and everybody can only do the best they can, with what they have to work with. Some approaches fit different contexts better than others. But if you make such substantial modifications to a body of work, such that it no longer reflects the originators intent around his own creation, at least have the decency to drop his moniker from the end product.

"I can tell you what to think, or teach you HOW to think. I can teach you a move, or teach you HOW to move." -- SGM Ed Parker, Sr.

Kenpo is NOT the sequence of moves... never has been; the sequences were just there so we would have a common media of discussion within which to explore HOW one ought to move, in order to best utilize the bodys best potential. Kenpo is about HOW to move. I see people all the time doing the sequences, but failing at moving the way Mr. Parker tried ad nauseum to coach people to move.

I wonder how many swim coaches are banging their heads against the wall in frustration, because no matter how many times they tell the immensely talented mook in the pool how to twist his wrist while hiking his opposite hip to gain more skate across the surface in order to improve his time, the guy just doesn't get it. The athlete is still convinced the path to becoming a better technician is just a matter of ten more laps, with more intensity.

^^^^^SEE!! I TOLDJA I LIKE THIS GUY! THIS RIGHT HERE IS ANOTHER GOOD REASON WHY!!!


Having been an amatuer enthusiast of kinesiology,exercise physiology,biomechanics,physical therapy,sports psychology,nutrition,Oriental Medicine,and the like for going on 2 decades now and almost majored in kinesiology in school,I feel pretty comfy in that area.I'm a geek and cool with that.Love it.I had a subscription to TRIATHLON magazine and all the hardcore magazines before they went commercial...like not too many people know that MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT used to be a doooope magazine centered around athletic performance.Now it's firmly on the bodybuilder only thing and that's cool too,but...not of much help to us athletes.I've been down with guys like Tim Hallmark back when he was bringing Evander up from cruiserweight.I read the works of Bompa and maaaany others.I'm pretty well versed for an amatuer.

There is also the common but erroneous perception of athletes that we don't know what we're doing or can't be taught technique.Wrong.There's a common perception that we coaches are pure technicians with limited or no athletic ability on a high performance wavelength.Wrong some more.I'm both,and I'm not alone.And I'm not a kid,either.I looong ago reached the conclusion that each movement is essential and has multiple applications,with concepts translated into mechanics being of the most primary importance.I'm fully aware that each movement is a mini-lab;if you recall,I actually made that comment months ago on KT and frequently referred to collabing with other kenpoists as a "Kenpo Lab"...which again formulated a major part of the reason why I put such importance on technique done on video to show exactly and specifically what each of us meant by such and such.In essence,the supremacy of movement is the crucial lesson in martial arts and even on a quantum level one can argue that the supremacy of movement may be the ultimate lesson of life itself.And again and again and again,the FM is vastly superior in this area too.In science? The FM forms the very spine foundation and cornerstone of ALL hard sciences...it's called THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.So when we study technique? We study the hell out of technique.When we study concepts? Nobody does it as well or better.When we muse about things great and small even without the hard data that one can frequently acquire about various subjects due to the SCIENTIFIC METHOD? We're philosophizing...in fact,philosophy and philosophers are closely linked to the SCIENTIFIC METHOD...roughly equivalent to the Observation and Hypothesis phase in SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

It's this perspective that helps to inform my admiration for and championing of the Functional Method.There is a truly asinine perception that the FM means go in the ring and get punched or something else brainless,because that is a way to learn how to fight.Over and over again I keep pointing out that the FM is superior in EVERY way.For instance:

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka brought us TERRIFIC knowledge and info regarding his time with GGMEP.Especially when he brought us info regarding his talks with GGMEP regarding Captured Twigs.He stated that in essence GGMEP said that Captured Twigs' main point was to teach the student to DO SOMETHING and not spazz like a freakin moron.Well cleary that "DO SOMETHING" took on a concrete form...and here is where the disconnects are.The FM has zero problems with the goal..."DO SOMETHING AND IN THE DOING OF IT? MOVE AND BE KENPO ABOUT IT."

1): What are the unfailing hallmarks of Kenpo movement,even though each movement has to be translated through the gajillion movement options of each person as they grow and age? I have INFINITE INSIGHTS INTO KENPO.Seems to me that this book combined with the anecdotes of some of our Kenpo Seniors very much makes me think that GGMEP was himself still working that out...which gives us the freedom to do the same.On top of that,I very much get the feeling from specific writings and anecdotes that GGMEP wanted us to work out our own path too,so...that takes us to the second observation which is crucial here:

2) If the goal is to DO SOMETHING THAT'S EFFECTIVE AND KENPO? After we come to our own conclusion of how we articulate the concepts of Kenpo,we speediy realize that there's always a BETTER WAY to do various movements.It's within our grasp to continually innovate better ways using the sciences of movement and leverage,etc.This is where the IP movements fall directly on their faces and demolish the elevated absract structure that's supposed to spawn it.Cuz they have no energy timing and motion,they're forever locked in their Ivory Tower with their freeze frame actions akin to mannequins which are sure to fossilize movement and make it utterly nonpractical. You know how you fix that? You say:

"Okay! We're going to learn concepts of funtional,practical movement and study how we can translate these concepts by using specific methods not only as a means of unique self defense and fitness but also as a perpetual source of mental and spiritual refinement and elevation.We'll call these specific yet infinitely variant movements bound by this concept KENPO. Okay,let's say this here bad guy grabs you from behind in the bear hug.Let's try to find THE MOST EFFICIENT WAYS to escape this here bear hug without allowing the bad guy the opportunity to do us severe damage and stuff.We'll take THE BEST OPTION AGAINST THE MOST REALISTIC BEAR HUGS AND USE THIS AS OUR TECHNICAL BASE.WE WILL DO THIS WITH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE 72 SD TECHNIQUES WHICH FORM THE SPINE OF KENPO.As time passes and we train and study and improve in every way,it will be all of our mandate to improve this technical base; make it more applicable,make it more realistic,and in the process make it healthier...a more combative form of something akin to a blend of yoga and hard science.The method of improvement will of course mandate using these techniques against escalating levels of realistic resistance,so that we can have the most accurate data with which to inform our concepts,observations,hypothesis and conclusions.Sparring is a vital part of the "Experimentation" phase soooo...lotsa sparring and sparring drills and stuff along with our less combative studies.Throughout this entire time we're still applying our unique Kenpo movements and concepts and refining both...then sharing our results.Okay? One two three...go!"

That right there^^^^ is the Functional Phase.IT WILL RELIABLY ACHIEVE THE GOALS THAT GGMEP APPARENTLY WANTED FOR US IN AT LEAST SEVERAL MAJOR PHASES.You know why Kenpo has been so fractured and the IP sucks anus and does anything BUT teach realistic real world technique and concepts and stuff? Because there hasn't been sufficient dessimination of GGMEP's specific words regarding movement along with specific ACCURATE Kenpo physical articulative models thereof.That is exactly what we DIDN'T get from the IP.See the PHYSICAL ARTICULATION of the terrific concepts behind the IP movements suck anus.Lots of it.Lots and lots of it.There is nothing sublime about the crapganimousness that we see in the physical articulation of the IP.There is no secret Holy Grail behind this:

That's just crap.Period.There's no impetus or inclination to study anything about that beyond:"THAT ISH SUCKS."

Now check this out:

ATACX GYM ALTERNATING MACES I

^^^That's ya boi Coach Ras puttin it down.Recall especially the sequence from 1:41-2:00.I specifically show the importance of not only striking with bth sides but fusing the hammerfist block into a punch and block.Watch the clip of GGMEP I have and the sections I highlight.He DOES THE SAME THING...and I never ever saw that video clip before AND I've never seen GGMEP demo his sequences before either.I only found that clip today as it was sent into my inbox on Youtube by Jim Miller and his KenpoKarate365 Youtube Channel peeps.

I'm merely a 5th dan.That other guy Joe in the other clip is a GM.I've never met GGMEP in life although I did see him a few times at the IKC.See,people locked into the phsyical movements of the IP without any FM concepts behind it will say stuff like:"you do technique x from this position and technique y from this position" like Clint the Tatumite and too many others said regarding Attacking Mace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNeEYgqQb6M&feature=watch_response

These guys and gals never spar or test these sequences at all and in so doing GUARANTEE that they'll miss the intricacies behind the movements.No need for any form of discussion or minilab or anything.The FM adherents and exponents however,MANDATE such a need.We wanna apply technique "x" FROM EVERYWHERE and in the process we HAVE TO break the movement down and intimately,microscopically examine it.We HAVE TO try to figure out the conceptual model behind the movement.We HAVE TO find the universality of movements and that knowledge HAS TO impact EVERYTHING that we do.So we're very intelligent,very well informed,very much in sync with the underlying concepts...especially when we reach instructor level and beyond.

That's why my Attacking Mace looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxHsdUDLDU&feature=watch_response

See how all that highfalutin nonapplicable anus VANISHES when you have to spar and "the Truth will out"? And the truth is even MORE intricate applicable graspable (in its prmary elementary phases) and faaaar more educationally motivational than the flowery fake stuff that comprise 100% of the physical articulation of the IP?


See,the process of CORRECTING this crap takes progressive thought,analysis,experimentation,elevated reflection...in short? All the actual benefits that champions of the phsycial articulation of the IP ascribe to said wakk IP physical articulation but which not only is NOT there and NEVER WILL be;it's the SOLE PROVINCE OF THE FM.It takes conceptualizing,observation,hypothesis,experimentation,acquisition of a complete and well tested theoretical model,sharing this tested theoretical model with a wealth of like minded peers for testing,for review,dissection and approbation,seeking to impove upon this theoretical model once it's been subjected to exhaustive and thoroughgoing testing by your collective peers and yourself,and repeating this process ad infinitum that actually achieves the goal you speak of.This is literally the definition of THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD.The SCIENTIFIC METHOD is a major articulation of the FM.That's how we went from horses to the Model T to the airplane to space shuttles and eventually The Enterprise and beyond.You know what the physical articulation of the IP does? It progressively disintegrates all of the good that you champion.The first thing we learn from the physical IP is that it doesn't work.The general reaction to such a presentation of craptimonious physical movements is a generally negative perception of the art that champions it.The negative perception of the ART is misplaced,but it's our fault for putting such crap out there in the first place.Fix it.By using the FM.There ya go.

GGM ED PARKER:

^^This is GGMEP.Look at what he does and says.He is actively applying movements to various scenarios,stepping in precisely the opposite direction and doing exactly the opposite of what the IP shows.IN OTHER WORDS I'M DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.Guess what else? MY MOVEMENTS ARE CLOSER TO HIS THAN THAT OTHER GUY'S ARE.(btw I know the curvilinear bodywhip movements that GGMEP dos--often called "power amplification"--but I pick and choose when I use them.However,my body movements scrupulously follow scientific models espoused in disciplines like kinesiology and my own common sense).

Now look at this video of GGMEP and Jeff Speakman.Listent to how Jeff Speakman points out that Kenpo isn't tied to a specific historical Master (which includes GGMEP) but is instead the "science of street fighting." Listen to GGMEP,especially from 1:30-2:08. Not only marvel at how he moves but more importantly LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS. Then take look again AT WHAT THE IP EXPONENTS DO AND SAY and COMPARE AND CONTRAST with WHAT I DO AND SAY.I'm faaar closer to GGMEP without ever having spoken to him or having seen him perform a SINGLE technique.

The proof is in the pudding.The FM IS PUDDING.The physical articulations of the IP is closer to a badly made bowl of chitlins.


What's MOST IRONIC of this WHOLE CONVO is that your anecdotal story simply reaffirmed that GGMEP WAS FUNCTIONAL.That's the most glaring thing.It's clear to me even more than it ever was that GGMEP was closer than I ever knew to Bruce Lee philosophically and vice versa (I believe Doc and then you mentioned something like this to me first,but I'd organically reached this conclusion and applied it for decades now); essentially these guys took opposite paths to engage similar highly sophisticated philosopical models...like I said,a combination of science and yoga.BUT SCIENCE AND YOGA ARE BOTH FUNCTIONAL.The physical articulation of the IP is NOT functional and thus it AUTOMATICALLY FAILS to convey the intricate conceptual model behind it.No amount of championing it or flowery words will get beyond this impenetrable wall of reality.

But I'm learning alot and enjoying this conversation.I see man that you're able to find functionality in the IP because you have a functional base.GGMEP and the Gracies and other primary instructors.The real trick is twofold here:

1) How can someone who's in a commercial studio for instance learn the applicability of Kenpo and the SD in the IP san sparring,sans the mandate to delve deeper,sans functonality? The answer: not happening.

2)Can you and anyone else who conflates the IP CONCEPT with the IP PHYSICAL ARTICULATIVE REALITY look straight at the IP's physical movements and see the glaring obviousness of its suckitude? Be straight up by calling a spade a spade: the movements of the IP are NOT functional.Even in your discussions and posts defending the IP,you'd say:"Yeah the IP is essential to Kenpo and teaches us technique." And then show zero follow up to that assertion.Know why? There IS no concrete follow up.Yu then would say stufflike:"It's desiged to stimulate discussion..." the only discussion that ensues would be:"This ish sucks! Throw it away!" and the followup would be:"F#ck karate!" or "Gotta make something that works from this crap."

The primary mandate of any MARTIAL art is TO WORK IN FIGHTS FIRST.The IP does NOT work.Neither will anything else that springs from its nonfunctional wakkness.You wanna stimulate discussion? HAVE THE TECHNIQUES WORK FIRST AND THEN INTRODUCE DISCUSSION ON THE TECHNIQUE.I do it all the time in almost every class I teach.Extra simple,extra FUNCTIONAL.Nothing Ideal about it.

Look at the ALTERNATING MACES as shown by numerous other Professors and GM:

^^^I bet each one of these guys can fight in real life because they don't do that in real life.Their biggest and most fatal flaw is a completely unrealistic assesment of the attack coming at them.Look at the world of difference that I display and they're of way higher rank and seniority than me:

It's over.It's a wrap.The real world gives us the real answers and flatly the evidence of m simplest Alternating Maces video brings the real world from jump.The follow up where I block a variety of pushes and punches WITH THE EXACT SAME TECHNIQUE--that video hasn't been put up due to my brother being a lazy ***.Lol.I'll put it back up again to make my point clear.

Take Joe's Alternating Maces and try it exactly or very close to how he shoes it vs a genuine attacker who's genuinely pushing the crap out of you.First thing you learn? IT DON'T WORK.They're NOT indicative of a keen mind behind the movements,therefore theree wil beNO INCENTIVE TO DISCUSS A THING.Boxing,for example,is the Sweet Science.We see over and over again the acumen of boxing trainers and the importance of nutrition,of well run goal oriented training camps,etc. etc.First and foremost...boxing is FUNCTIONAL.If Kenpo were to take the FM to the IP? Pow.Problem solved.The FM is indeed the Functional Ideal cuz the Idea is to be Functional.Lol.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Hey Ras,

Just watched that first clip. Yes, thats Clyde. He, and a few other Tatumites, used to be members here. Perhaps this is best saved for the IP technique thread, but anyways...I'll say it here. He commented to you in one of those quotes, that there is always another IP tech to fall back on, in the event something goes wrong with the first IP tech. For myself, I teach the IP. But, I dont harp on it for 50yrs like some people. And thats their choice. I teach the IP, and then *I* like to move on so as to get people to thinking outside the box. Using the basics, I'll cover other options, possible attacks, etc. I'm not looking for another IP, and frankly, I dont understand why people get so bound by the IPs. Some people talk about internalizing the techs. How long does that take, given the fact that we have hundreds of them? A few months? A year? 30yrs? IMO, whats more important to internalize, is the basics, so when the poop hits the fan, you will fall back on instinct, rather than have to sort thru a list of techs.

I think you and I are both getting people to the FM, you're just going on a quicker route, which is fine.

The first thing you gotta do with the physical articulation of the IP is FIX IT SO IT WILL WORK.And man? That SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO HAPPEN cuz THE TECHNIQUE SHOULD ALREADY WORK PERIOD.Fixing or having to fix a nonfunctional technique is the proof that the teacher isn't presenting the material well or sucks.Period.How much would we be talking about the Gracies and the UFC if their grappling only "ideally" worked? It works.How many times did you hear Roger Mayweather tell Floyd to "ideally" jab Shane? PBF jabbed the crap outta my boi Sugar Shane. How often would a Navy SEAL "ideally" shoot a bad guy? Exactly how does that 115 pound woman over there "ideally" stop that 230 pound mugger rapist? This abysmal failure is NOT a launch pad for discussion.It doesn't encourage you to analyze each movement like it's a mini-lab.What happens is: Kid goes to kenpo school wth nonscraptastic nonfunctional IP teacher.Teacher bedazzles kid and parents with sweet words and marketing yammer.Kid signs up for exorbitant price.Kid is excited.Kid energetically practices anus IP techniques.Kid might have encounter with other sucktastic kid who was bothering him.Karate kid gets his butt kicked.Karate kid is devastated,leaves Karate and martial arts altogether or joins MMA.He loves the functionality of MMA and in short order comes back and STOMPS those kids who bugged him.Orrrr...the karate kid doesn't lose he wins or he holds his own.YAY.More energetic sucktastic training and overconfidence that comes from it.Kid is called upon--now in high school--to scrap with another kid.Maybe it's a bullying football player.Maybe it's the aggressive razzing of a HS wrestler.Whoever this is? This kid isn't a chump and our IP karate kid gets ANNIHILATED.Karate kid is mentally and emotionally devastated.Social calamity ensues.The kid remembers that movie NEVER BACK DOWN.Off he goes to MMA gym. 2 months later? HE ANNIHILATES those kids who stomped him.We now have another MMA die hard fan who is equally die hard about his opinion that karate sucks.And he's not shy about spreading the news.The kids who're the former Karate Kid's friends and the kids who watched the Karate Kid get stomped all learn: karae sucks.Kenpoloses dozens of potential students.

All this because the karate sensei isn't functional.In direct contradiction to common sense.In direct contradiction to GGMEP.There simply is no justifying any aspect of the physical articulation of the IP,or withholding the knowledge that you're supposed to use your brain and analyze a technique's approach and application so you can grasp the principle behind it.Duh.Howzabout you teach some stuff that works,show why it works,and talk about why it works and then have the students work off of that principle so they not only have a technique that works? They delve into the principles of thought that spawned the principle and the philosophy behind it.Whoa.Hard work.Takes like 5 minutes.I do it 95% of the time in my classes and that's how I got the techniques I have.Like I said,my variant of the Kenpo's SD techniques came from this collaborative process.I know exactly whereof I speak.

 

[marlon]

Hi Ras,
I am still going through your post to get as much out of it as possible. I note that in kenpoprossessor's rebuttle to your attacking mace he does something different than you on the initial entry. His check at the shoulder immediately changes his attackers posture. On contact he begins a manipulation control that I have missed seeing on your rendition of the technique. Is that an alteration that you made or is his a variation? Sorry, I did not want to forget the question...back to reading

 

[MJS]

The first thing you gotta do with the physical articulation of the IP is FIX IT SO IT WILL WORK.And man? That SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO HAPPEN cuz THE TECHNIQUE SHOULD ALREADY WORK PERIOD.Fixing or having to fix a nonfunctional technique is the proof that the teacher isn't presenting the material well or sucks.Period.How much would we be talking about the Gracies and the UFC if their grappling only "ideally" worked? It works.How many times did you hear Roger Mayweather tell Floyd to "ideally" jab Shane? PBF jabbed the crap outta my boi Sugar Shane. How often would a Navy SEAL "ideally" shoot a bad guy? Exactly how does that 115 pound woman over there "ideally" stop that 230 pound mugger rapist? This abysmal failure is NOT a launch pad for discussion.It doesn't encourage you to analyze each movement like it's a mini-lab.What happens is: Kid goes to kenpo school wth nonscraptastic nonfunctional IP teacher.Teacher bedazzles kid and parents with sweet words and marketing yammer.Kid signs up for exorbitant price.Kid is excited.Kid energetically practices anus IP techniques.Kid might have encounter with other sucktastic kid who was bothering him.Karate kid gets his butt kicked.Karate kid is devastated,leaves Karate and martial arts altogether or joins MMA.He loves the functionality of MMA and in short order comes back and STOMPS those kids who bugged him.Orrrr...the karate kid doesn't lose he wins or he holds his own.YAY.More energetic sucktastic training and overconfidence that comes from it.Kid is called upon--now in high school--to scrap with another kid.Maybe it's a bullying football player.Maybe it's the aggressive razzing of a HS wrestler.Whoever this is? This kid isn't a chump and our IP karate kid gets ANNIHILATED.Karate kid is mentally and emotionally devastated.Social calamity ensues.The kid remembers that movie NEVER BACK DOWN.Off he goes to MMA gym. 2 months later? HE ANNIHILATES those kids who stomped him.We now have another MMA die hard fan who is equally die hard about his opinion that karate sucks.And he's not shy about spreading the news.The kids who're the former Karate Kid's friends and the kids who watched the Karate Kid get stomped all learn: karae sucks.Kenpoloses dozens of potential students.

All this because the karate sensei isn't functional.In direct contradiction to common sense.In direct contradiction to GGMEP.There simply is no justifying any aspect of the physical articulation of the IP,or withholding the knowledge that you're supposed to use your brain and analyze a technique's approach and application so you can grasp the principle behind it.Duh.Howzabout you teach some stuff that works,show why it works,and talk about why it works and then have the students work off of that principle so they not only have a technique that works? They delve into the principles of thought that spawned the principle and the philosophy behind it.Whoa.Hard work.Takes like 5 minutes.I do it 95% of the time in my classes and that's how I got the techniques I have.Like I said,my variant of the Kenpo's SD techniques came from this collaborative process.I know exactly whereof I speak.

Brutha Ras,

Good points as always. Lemme clarify a few things. The #1 reason why I teach the IP techs. is because I have to. Its not my school, so I gotta do what I gotta do. However....(insert the evil grin here) after I do that, and again, I'm constantly stressing to them, to not harp on the techs. When that punch is racing to their head, I dont wanna see them do Attacking Mace, Thundering Hammers, etc, I want to see them defend themselves. If one of those techs comes out, great, but dont go thru a huge list of umpteen techs.

Anyways...after I do the IP, I move on to making it a FM tech. Furthermore, I also show them some possible options that I may do. Am I doing a 'Kenpo tech' per se? Probably not, but I'm using my Kenpo basics, and I'm defending myself. Punch coming in...I may opt for a parry, palm to the face, and takedown. I may fall back on something from the FMAs.

For *me* my goal isn't to make it look fancy, flashy, or even look like a Kenpo tech. My goal is to successfully defend myself. Dont mistake this for me tossing out the concepts that principles...I'm keeping those. I'm just not tying myself to the "IP"

 

[ATACX GYM]

Hi Ras,
I am still going through your post to get as much out of it as possible. I note that in kenpoprossessor's rebuttle to your attacking mace he does something different than you on the initial entry. His check at the shoulder immediately changes his attackers posture. On contact he begins a manipulation control that I have missed seeing on your rendition of the technique. Is that an alteration that you made or is his a variation? Sorry, I did not want to forget the question...back to reading

Hey Marlon!

Clint aka kenpoprofessor's rebuttle and shoulter check comes after he resets.He wasn't initially at that range at first.His first check was around the elbow and tricep area.Watch the video again and you'll see it.Secondly,I actually show the step by step process that he uses first as the first video in my introduction to Attacking Mace and what I deem to be nonfunctional about the base model.I also specifically state that I generally knee the thigh,and I also bang the groin ribs gut or anything else I can quickly get to that hurts.Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aA5I3Llh0&NR=1


Hope that helps.The sequence where I didn't manipulate his shoulder is a later video,designed to show how I teach nonstop attacks on both sides.I see that my friend didn't put up the version wherein I run the techniques from both sides with the Crane and Talon and then run through the basic subs step by step and then do it while sparring.I'll have to put it up and break that one into 2 videos because it's longer than the 10 minute Youtube limit.I used the Crane to manipulate his height width and depth zones--HWDZ-- after/simultaneous with the landed knee strike.I do indeed employ the kick but I do so with the acknowledgement of the reality that sometimes you're too close to kick,so I knee too.Usually I throw that knee or kick to the thigh groin or stomach,but I also bang HARD to the body as that alone can end the whole conflict.I show variants where I throw two kicks--one of which is a high kick--while running the techniques on both sides nonstop and flowing seamlessly into clinch work strikes and subs while striking and using my stances,pressure,and HWDZ checks to keep him off balance strip him of his offense and submit him.It's purrty easy to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related

 

[MJS]

Hey Marlon!

Clyde aka kenpoprofessor's rebuttle and shoulter check comes after he resets.He wasn't initially at that range at first.His first check was around the elbow and tricep area.Watch the video again and you'll see it.Secondly,I actually show the step by step process that he uses first as the first video in my introduction to Attacking Mace and what I deem to be nonfunctional about the base model.I also specifically state that I generally knee the thigh,and I also bang the groin ribs gut or anything else I can quickly get to that hurts.Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aA5I3Llh0&NR=1


Hope that helps.The sequence where I didn't manipulate his shoulder is a later video,designed to show how I teach nonstop attacks on both sides.I see that my friend didn't put up the version wherein I run the techniques from both sides with the Crane and Talon and then run through the basic subs step by step and then do it while sparring.I'll have to put it up and break that one into 2 videos because it's longer than the 10 minute Youtube limit.I used the Crane to manipulate his height width and depth zones--HWDZ-- after/simultaneous with the landed knee strike.I do indeed employ the kick but I do so with the acknowledgement of the reality that sometimes you're too close to kick,so I knee too.Usually I throw that knee or kick to the thigh groin or stomach,but I also bang HARD to the body as that alone can end the whole conflict.I show variants where I throw two kicks--one of which is a high kick--while running the techniques on both sides nonstop and flowing seamlessly into clinch work strikes and subs while striking and using my stances,pressure,and HWDZ checks to keep him off balance strip him of his offense and submit him.It's purrty easy to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1kWv5GK8Fs&feature=related

Fixed that for ya.

 

[marlon]

Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation? what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?

Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation? what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?

Marlon

Quoting Doc here..."It depends."

Lol.

The "base technique" was constanty evolving,as I understand it,so there are slight modifications here and there from practitioner to practitioner as well as those incurred by the passage of time.The main thing for the Attacking Mace (regarding the arm) as I learnd it is to first NOT get hit and second REDIRECT the attacking arm via block and manipulation or grip control most preferably,but the real world mandate is to get close enough to counter with a kick and marriage of gravity punch,a punch-kick-punch along the lines opened by the attacker by the nature ofhis attack,or block-knee-punch,etc.This includes takedowns (you can drop a dude just b hitting him and bow stancing through him or and manipulating him via any direction you want with your bow stance and in the process of transition from one bow stance to another you drop him) lcks and holds and stuff as a finisher if the strikes don't take him out.The targets that we strike are the nearest most vulnerable targets that we can use our longest-midrange and shortest (usually in that order as we close on him) most damaging weapons against.That's generally the thigh,groin,and body...and then we can wreck the head.Unless he just leaves himself wide open and we have that golden shot at the noggin we just can't pass up.Lolol.The arm comes into play as a means of control by evasion,manipulation,redirection,etc.

In the real world? Shorter guys like me often times block the limb between the wrist and elbow,because usually my attackers are taller and larger than I am.This is usually the case for women too,who compound their problems by generally inferior upper body strength.So I focus on real world effectiveness after explaining what it is we're trying to do and the reasons for these tactics...and devise ways to execute this technique from farther out.This is why we shorter folks oftentimes lead with a leg technique (our opponent's arm is usually longer than ours so we're out of range of the opponent,it's oftentimes a real surprise to be caught with a kick on the street,the leg is more powerful than the arm,it allows us to enter with pain and minimize retaliation by our opponent) when our opponent uses his arms.I'm also a great believer in body blows.Most people--even people 50 pounds heavier than you--can't take or are severely compromised by gettin clocked by 4 full powered clean shots to the body in a row;so we train to do exactly that.

I also have my students purposely targer thighs groins head ribs liver,kidneys,back of the neck temple eyes etc. with Attacking Mace hand and leg blows.It's a beautiful sight to see them pull it off,but it's not so rewarding to read posts where Captain Kenpo says "that's not Attacking Mace because you hit him in the head,not the body." Lolol.

 

[marlon]

Technical point for me. i am on the shorter side myself however, I maintain and train to block inside wrist outside elbow. Inside the strike I block closer to the wrist and outside I block closer to the elbow because of the possibility of counter strikes. We work on how to get there...can include entry kicks

 

[MJS]

Thanks Ras, but is the shoulder check a part of the base technique? Do you find it an effective functional means of contact manipulation? what does this mean for the rest of the technique, base vs. your version?

Marlon

We're slightly drifting off topic here with the discusion of Attacking Mace, but anyways....

I do that tech. stepping back and doing a left inward block. Again, speaking for *me* only, I teach the techs as taught to me, but I then provide the student with other options. Frankly I dont care how they block, as long as they dont get hit. Inward block, parry the arm, whatever. We could keep the arm 'checked' with contact manip. or we could use a positional check.

What happens to the rest of the tech? Depends on how the person is moving. If a certain target area isn't open, due to how they move, you simply adapt. Instead of that kick going to the groin, you may have to strike another area, use a different kick, omit the kick altogether.

Furthermore, you'll notice that in many cases, we see the 'attackers' arm still being extended. Is this really whats going to happen? Are they really going to hold their arm out for you, so it'll be easier to grab? That being said, things will have to be adapted, as I said, to how they move.

 

[MJS]

I also have my students purposely targer thighs groins head ribs liver,kidneys,back of the neck temple eyes etc. with Attacking Mace hand and leg blows.It's a beautiful sight to see them pull it off,but it's not so rewarding to read posts where Captain Kenpo says "that's not Attacking Mace because you hit him in the head,not the body." Lolol.

LMAO! I look at it like this....who cares where you hit? Yes, 'ideally' it would be AM, IF, that being the key word here, everything went according to plan. But personally, it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference if you hit the head instead of the body. No, its not going to be the 'textbook' AM, and thats fine for me. Whatever.

Isnt it funny how you can watch someone who really knows how to do kata, do 2 or 3 or more, different applications to each move? Yet somehow in Kenpo, when doing techs., its somehow wrong. I should be able to step forward, parry the arm, punch the face, and knee them in the leg instead of kicking the groin. Head, body....doesnt matter, IMO, as I'm still using the idea being AM.

 

[marlon]

We're slightly drifting off topic here with the discusion of Attacking Mace, but anyways....

I do that tech. stepping back and doing a left inward block. Again, speaking for *me* only, I teach the techs as taught to me, but I then provide the student with other options. Frankly I dont care how they block, as long as they dont get hit. Inward block, parry the arm, whatever. We could keep the arm 'checked' with contact manip. or we could use a positional check.

What happens to the rest of the tech? Depends on how the person is moving. If a certain target area isn't open, due to how they move, you simply adapt. Instead of that kick going to the groin, you may have to strike another area, use a different kick, omit the kick altogether.

Furthermore, you'll notice that in many cases, we see the 'attackers' arm still being extended. Is this really whats going to happen? Are they really going to hold their arm out for you, so it'll be easier to grab? That being said, things will have to be adapted, as I said, to how they move.

Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
Marlon

 

[marlon]

LMAO! I look at it like this....who cares where you hit? Yes, 'ideally' it would be AM, IF, that being the key word here, everything went according to plan. But personally, it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference if you hit the head instead of the body. No, its not going to be the 'textbook' AM, and thats fine for me. Whatever.

Isnt it funny how you can watch someone who really knows how to do kata, do 2 or 3 or more, different applications to each move? Yet somehow in Kenpo, when doing techs., its somehow wrong. I should be able to step forward, parry the arm, punch the face, and knee them in the leg instead of kicking the groin. Head, body....doesnt matter, IMO, as I'm still using the idea being AM.

If you take the view that AM and every technique is a mini form then naturally multiple applications of the same mechanics are to be explored, but that is not mere opportunistic and / or random changes without regard for and working out the mechanics and their effects. It should be specific recognition of the effects of the mechanics that the mini form has rather than changing the mini form based on what if's. as much as kempo fighting is not about techniques the methoodology of teching is that there are different mini forms prepared to discuss the what if's. Otherwise it becomes to easy to miss the dept of application of the catalogued information in the mini forms, including AM. i am assming because that is how our techniques are used and discussed in SK
My humble 2 cents...I am prepared for the blasting

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[ATACX GYM]

Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
Marlon

Yes,but you're block is dependent upon the attack.So THE ATTACK DETERMINES YOUR BLOCK.That's why I make my students run EVERY sequence off of EVERY block,slip,bob weave..from EVERY quarter of a 360 degree circle,while they're in clinch range and clinched up,seated,etc.During this time I make them do the sequence of blows only as they're originally taught as the launch point...exactly like you'd teach the 1-2 in boxing to say the head first before you go head-body.From that point I make them do the same thing but this time hit whatever's open...using the same sequence of blows.Within 4 days of practicing this technique they can reliably hit whatever target presents itself (women are entirely too fond of groin strikes,btw) AND feel confident that they can hit whatever target presents itself from whatever defensive posture or position or both that they find themselves in.I repeat this same sequence with weapons of various sorts (yes I teach weapons from Day 1) and of course on the ground...with a focus on getting back up to your feet. I teach gnp with Alter.Mac. (I actually call it "ALTER MACK" when talking to my class) and it sucks to be on the receiving end,too.

Here's 3 other things that I do that I have NEVER seen anyone else do: I TEACH HOW TO ATTACK WITH A DEFENSIVE SEQUENCE.For instance in Alter Mack I make my students attack with a diagonal hammerfist,which is the same movement of the inside block.I also change that movement to jabs,thrust puches,ridgehands,and whatever else...AFTER they see that they can hammer fist,forearm shiver and elbow SUCCESSFULLY with THE SAME MOVEMENT that the block with.I TEACH MY STUDENTS HOW TO SUCCESSFULLY APPLY THE PRIMARY ATTACK THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DEFENDED BY THE TECHNIQUE IN QUESTION.So in Alter Mack I teach how to get off cold pushes in combination with blows and escapes,as a means prevent or to counter Alter Mack.Students speedily pick up the second thing that I encourage and here I both offer my own base solution and INSIST that they create their own during the TECHNICAL SKIRMISH LINE (a drill I use that has one student face the whole class in a row,but no contact is to be made,the purpose is to sharpen the technical skill and responses of the students; I will allow freestyling by the attacker once the appropriate facility with the technique is gained;that usually takes 4 days. I allow it because by the 4-5th traiing day the students have had plenty of training with executing these techniques in the various ranges,and are already well versed with what can happen in a SKIRMISH LINE) and I make them remember their own counters,because I will let them do it.I want to encourage them to develope their own combos off of Alter Mack.They learn both my suggestion on how to counter the counter I teach and they confidently develope their own too...like slipping the jab is the counter to the jab and if you fire back they might slip block or roll your punch and you just play combat chess like that until the match ends.It happens quickly and their knowledge is deep.Gives me a huuuuge advantage when coaching because most coaches may be familiar with another coach yelling:"2-3! 2-3 (cross lead hand hook combo from boxing) so they can tell THEIR athlete how to counter mine.But noooobody knows what to do when I shout out:"BLADE EM! (5 SWORDS)" or "ALTER MACK!" or "PIMP SLAP (THRUSTING SALUTE...we cracked up lol when my students and I came up with that one)"! We just SLAUGHTER opposing schools at tournies.I'm not gonna give out all my call signs and signals so that's pretty much all you're gonna get for a good while from me.But it's a great idea,huh?

 

[marlon]

All the defense techniques are taught as ways to attack with me as well. doesn't everybody? prper ways of attacking are taught and count for grading. I don't allow them to develop set ways of defending (it is a requirement much later on to develop ones own techniques, but much later), reaction drills of all types means they do end up defending with kempo even though it is not a set technique...Funny, the other day...well a while ago actually, cuase i have been laid up for a while, one of my black belts asked me when and why I taught a brown belt a high level black belt technique. Yeah, I didn't. during a reaction drill he responded with his kempo spontaneously and it was almost perfectly a 3rd degree technique. He could tell you what he did but it came out well and with the right timing and body mechanics. Fun stuff. Btw, Ras, I enjoy you sharing what you do with your students. Keep sharing

Respectflly,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

Would not "how" you block help determine how the person is moving and therefore the complition of your technique?
Marlon

Sure. I guess where I was coming from though, was when you have no idea what type of attack is coming, and you just respond, you just go with it. When you're doing the 'textbook' technique, yes, as I said, I teach it as it was taught to me. But I like to work the tech. a bunch of different ways.