Teach stances or blocks first?

[Tez3]

Why shouldn't they be in a class of anything?

3 and 4 year olds are not much more than babies why would you subject them to formal classes the same as adults?

We have some students that come in that are in that age range and are also in classes for singing, piano, and swimming.

Putting 3 and 4 year olds into classes isn't beneficial for the children it is for the parents.

The parents that bring their kids in are trying, but raising kids is hard.

Actually it's not that hard we've been doing it for millennia. I've done it successfully myself.

Kids having a structured class where they have to follow directions, take turns, share, and learn to control themselves is a very good thing for them.

For 3 years olds? no, it's not, it's for the parents to save them the bother of teaching them so I'm sure they are grateful to you. Why would you do that to children who have often not even learned to control their bladder and bowels properly!

can see your points, but I will say I've seen some very happy tiny kids in MA classes

In structured adult classes or classes designed for little ones? My point is against structured adult type classes.

I've not seen any higher incidence of fighting among trained kids.

I didn't even hint there was so I don't know why you'd say that. Very young children act first then think so are likely to fight anyway, teaching three year olds to fight properly isn't a good idea. As I said, wait until they are able to understand martial arts and can control themselves better. Not at any point did I say children who train fight more!

Who can honestly say that putting 3 and 4 year olds in a structured class teaching them exactly the same as adults is a good thing? Not a child's play class but a full on martial arts class exactly the same as you'd teach adults.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In structured adult classes or classes designed for little ones? My point is against structured adult type classes.

I haven't seen anyone propose kids that young should be trained the same as adults.

I didn't even hint there was so I don't know why you'd say that. Very young children act first then think so are likely to fight anyway, teaching three year olds to fight properly isn't a good idea. As I said, wait until they are able to understand martial arts and can control themselves better. Not at any point did I say children who train fight more!

My point was that they seem to fight a bit less. I don't know if that's self-control, self-confidence, what they are taught, or just that they've blown off a bunch of energy.

Who can honestly say that putting 3 and 4 year olds in a structured class teaching them exactly the same as adults is a good thing? Not a child's play class but a full on martial arts class exactly the same as you'd teach adults.

Again, I've not seen anyone suggest that.

 

[Tez3]

I haven't seen anyone propose kids that young should be trained the same as adults.

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

My point was that they seem to fight a bit less. I don't know if that's self-control, self-confidence, what they are taught, or just that they've blown off a bunch of energy.

My point wasn't about them fighting as such. I will repeat, why would you teach toddlers who aren't totally in control of their emotions ( or bodies) how to fight properly. Young children often hit each other out of frustration and anger ( they grow out of it) so why would you teach such young children to fight and allow them to hurt each other even more? Three year olds do hit each other, they also bite, fact. This has nothing to do with whether older children who do martial arts fight more or less than others. That's a different conversation. https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a539865/understanding-your-toddler

Again, I've not seen anyone suggest that.

 

[Tez3]

I haven't seen anyone propose kids that young should be trained the same as adults.

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

My point was that they seem to fight a bit less. I don't know if that's self-control, self-confidence, what they are taught, or just that they've blown off a bunch of energy.

My point wasn't about them fighting as such. I will repeat, why would you teach toddlers who aren't totally in control of their emotions ( or bodies) how to fight properly. Young children often hit each other out of frustration and anger ( they grow out of it) so why would you teach such young children to fight and allow them to hurt each other even more? Three year olds do hit each other, they also bite, fact. This has nothing to do with whether older children who do martial arts fight more or less than others. That's a different conversation. https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a539865/understanding-your-toddler

Again, I've not seen anyone suggest that.

did you read the comments on the link I put up?

 

[Tez3]

it seems the site is repeating posts again, I only posted once.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Multiple posts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

I didn't think his posts were specific enough to draw that conclusion. I actually thought he was talking about kids and adults at the same time, so was having to either be very vague on points, or discuss a bit of each. But that may just me reading into it because I already knew he taught kids (though not how young).

My point wasn't about them fighting as such. I will repeat, why would you teach toddlers who aren't totally in control of their emotions ( or bodies) how to fight properly. Young children often hit each other out of frustration and anger ( they grow out of it) so why would you teach such young children to fight and allow them to hurt each other even more? Three year olds do hit each other, they also bite, fact. This has nothing to do with whether older children who do martial arts fight more or less than others. That's a different conversation. https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a539865/understanding-your-toddler

I can't really speak to that - I've only rarely dealt with kids that young. My impression is that they're unlikely to be any better at hitting when they are frustrated, whether trained or not, but that's not a highly informed impression. Those who teach kids that age can probably speak to that better.

did you read the comments on the link I put up?

I didn't see a link in that post - can you point me back to the one your'e referring to? The only link I remember clicking on recently was about teaching kids (in general), I think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

I didn't think his posts were specific enough to draw that conclusion. I actually thought he was talking about kids and adults at the same time, so was having to either be very vague on points, or discuss a bit of each. But that may just me reading into it because I already knew he taught kids (though not how young).

My point wasn't about them fighting as such. I will repeat, why would you teach toddlers who aren't totally in control of their emotions ( or bodies) how to fight properly. Young children often hit each other out of frustration and anger ( they grow out of it) so why would you teach such young children to fight and allow them to hurt each other even more? Three year olds do hit each other, they also bite, fact. This has nothing to do with whether older children who do martial arts fight more or less than others. That's a different conversation. https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a539865/understanding-your-toddler

I can't really speak to that - I've only rarely dealt with kids that young. My impression is that they're unlikely to be any better at hitting when they are frustrated, whether trained or not, but that's not a highly informed impression. Those who teach kids that age can probably speak to that better.

did you read the comments on the link I put up?

I didn't see a link in that post. The only link of yours I remember following was about teaching kids (in general), I think.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

I didn't think his posts were specific enough to draw that conclusion. I actually thought he was talking about kids and adults at the same time, so was having to either be very vague on points, or discuss a bit of each. But that may just me reading into it because I already knew he taught kids (though not how young).

My point wasn't about them fighting as such. I will repeat, why would you teach toddlers who aren't totally in control of their emotions ( or bodies) how to fight properly. Young children often hit each other out of frustration and anger ( they grow out of it) so why would you teach such young children to fight and allow them to hurt each other even more? Three year olds do hit each other, they also bite, fact. This has nothing to do with whether older children who do martial arts fight more or less than others. That's a different conversation. https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a539865/understanding-your-toddler

I can't really speak to that - I've only rarely dealt with kids that young. My impression is that they're unlikely to be any better at hitting when they are frustrated, whether trained or not, but that's not a highly informed impression. Those who teach kids that age can probably speak to that better.

did you read the comments on the link I put up?

I didn't see a link in that post. The only link of yours I remember following was about teaching kids (in general), I think.

 

[skribs]

Other than the Op who is training them the same as adults, his posts right up until he stated his students are as young as three and a half led everyone to believe they were adult students.

I don't know how you can draw that conclusion.

1. I specifically mentioned kids in my OP, so why you would think I was talking about adults is beyond me
2. I have not said we train them the same. We don't train them the same. I have mentioned that during this thread, that our kids classes are designed with games and obstacle courses in them.

To elaborate, our school has virtually the same curriculum for kids and adults, with a few exceptions:

• Our white belt adults learn Form 1, we wait til Yellow Belt for kids. (The kids catch up on forms in Orange Belt)
• Our white belt adults learn the Yellow Belt punch defenses that kids learn. There's adult-only stuff at orange belt, and at green belt they synchronize
• Adults learn hand grabs, kids do not (until 2nd degree black belt).
• There's a few other things that adults will get at the colored belt level that kids won't, but the kids will learn at black belt

With that said, the classes are entirely different. The kids classes have more games and are much more structured. By that, I mean every minute of class and every move they take is directed at them. When we do punch defenses, we line the kids up, we tell one half to punch and the other half to do #1 defense. Then the ones who got it right wait while we help the ones who need help. Then everyone does #2 together, and so on. (With the lower belts, they line up and the black belts punch at them).

With the adults, when we do punch defenses, it's basically "find a partner, find a space on the mat, and practice. If you need help raise your hand." This is regardless of belt level (with the exception we're a little more hands-on the first couple classes so they can get the communication right).

Then there's my Master's end-of-class talks. With the kids, it's more about doing good in school, doing your chores, respecting your parents and teachers, reading books and playing outside instead of playing video games and watching TV, eating healthy, etc. With the adults, it's more about reminding everyone that it's important to continue training and to thank everyone for their hard work.

The kids and adult classes are run pretty different.

 

[Tez3]

When we do punch defenses, we line the kids up, we tell one half to punch and the other half to do #1 defense. Then the ones who got it right wait while we help the ones who need help. Then everyone does #2 together, and so on. (With the lower belts, they line up and the black belts punch at them).

Well that's fairly formal for three and a half year olds isn't it? why would you line the toddlers up and you haven't answered my question of why you'd teach the three and four year olds to strike properly?

Then there's my Master's end-of-class talks. With the kids, it's more about doing good in school, doing your chores, respecting your parents and teachers, reading books and playing outside instead of playing video games and watching TV, eating healthy, etc. .

How does that go down with the toddlers?

An aside here.... It goes against my personal beliefs to call any man 'Master' and I would not consider it my place as a martial arts instructor to lecture about anything other than martial arts nor would I have been happy at anyone lecturing my children in that way but I guess it goes down well with parents who feel they get their money's worth. But then that's me, I was taught respect was earnt and to be independent of thought. I very much dislike the cult like behaviour sometimes to be found in martial arts, no I'm not saying that is yours, it's just an observation.




When you were talking about teaching children you didn't mention until I asked that you taught toddlers.

 

[Tez3]

My impression is that they're unlikely to be any better at hitting when they are frustrated, whether trained or not, but that's not a highly informed impression. Those who teach kids that age can probably speak to that better.

Er, you haven't got my point here at all. It's not whether they are any better at hitting when they are frustrated at all. It's that toddlers hit out quite often, teaching them to hit even better is not a good idea, wait until they understand life a bit better and can control their emotions more.

My link was at the end of post 158.
https://www.mamapedia.com/article/martial-arts-for-a-3-year-old-good-idea-or-too-young

some quotes from parents.
"we started our daughter at 3 years old. She is tough though and was the youngest in the class. She would go up against 5 and 6 year olds and win. "

"My son started at 3...but it was only a few weeks before his 4th birthday. He stayed with that studio until he was 5. The new studio we wanted didn't take kids until 6. But after meeting him and seeing what he knew they welcomed him with open arms.

He is now 6 almost 7 in three weeks...and has earned his red belt, broken his first board (to earn the red belt)...and just started teaching the 3 and 4 year old class. )." My bolding.


"At my daughter's Dojo, they start kids at 5 years old. ………... they do NOT, 'baby' the kids. It is not Preschool.
It is traditional teaching. With traditional martial arts, expectations.
Some Dojos... are more.... loose in teaching young kids.Her Dojo does not just hand out belt color promotions... willy-nilly nor like candy. The child... HAS TO EARN IT. If not, they stay at their present belt level.
It is hard work. "

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Er, you haven't got my point here at all. It's not whether they are any better at hitting when they are frustrated at all. It's that toddlers hit out quite often, teaching them to hit even better is not a good idea, wait until they understand life a bit better and can control their emotions more.

My link was at the end of post 158.
https://www.mamapedia.com/article/martial-arts-for-a-3-year-old-good-idea-or-too-young

some quotes from parents.
"we started our daughter at 3 years old. She is tough though and was the youngest in the class. She would go up against 5 and 6 year olds and win. "

"My son started at 3...but it was only a few weeks before his 4th birthday. He stayed with that studio until he was 5. The new studio we wanted didn't take kids until 6. But after meeting him and seeing what he knew they welcomed him with open arms.

He is now 6 almost 7 in three weeks...and has earned his red belt, broken his first board (to earn the red belt)...and just started teaching the 3 and 4 year old class. )." My bolding.


"At my daughter's Dojo, they start kids at 5 years old. ………... they do NOT, 'baby' the kids. It is not Preschool.
It is traditional teaching. With traditional martial arts, expectations.
Some Dojos... are more.... loose in teaching young kids.Her Dojo does not just hand out belt color promotions... willy-nilly nor like candy. The child... HAS TO EARN IT. If not, they stay at their present belt level.
It is hard work. "

You and I are just going to have to settle for disagreeing on this one, Tez. We don’t seem to be communicating at all.

 

[Tez3]

You and I are just going to have to settle for disagreeing on this one, Tez. We don’t seem to be communicating at all.

My point is quite simple, toddlers can be stroppy little buggers through no one's fault, it's just part of learning to be human but why teach them to actually fight until they have more understanding and control? As you can see from one of the quotes I put up, one mother thinks it's great that her three year old is fighting with older children. The OP is teaching the very young children in his class to strike and defend, he's also lining them up in tradition TKD/TSD one and three step to do it, I've no problem with older children learning 'properly' but toddlers no. I'm being very specific about my posts in that I'm talking about teaching toddlers not older children.