Tang Yik pole vs "others"

[DanT]

So you've been taught both forms and have trained both methods? Do you prefer one over the other?

I know several different pole methods from various styles, including both of these methods. The Tang Yik method has much more techniques and is a very long form. Yip Man's form contains only the bare essentials, but is enough in terms of combat if you're smart and can adapt. It's like asking what's better, the full alphabet or only the letters ABCD, at the end of the day if all the words you use only have the letters ABCD, then it doesn't matter. Personally the Tang Yik form is better in terms of being complete.

One version of history/legend I have heard is that it was Fok Bo Chuen that incorporated the knives. Remember "Bart Jam Do" was just Ip Man's own term for them. Other lineages use a different name. Anyway....Fok Bo Chuen was Leung Jan's classmate and likely picked up the knives later. LJ did not teach the knives in Ku Lo village, suggesting his system did not have the knives. But he did teach a version of the pole! So I don't think it likely that the knives were added prior to the pole. The part about Ip Man is unclear, but seems likely to me! Ip Man Wing Chun does not have the Kwun Jong or "pole dummy." It has been said that this was because Tang Yik had it on the roof of his apartment building and not at the Dai Duk Lan. So Ip Man never saw it. Otherwise the Kwun Jong might have been a regular part of Ip Man Wing Chun! Whether Ip Man picked up on the first part of the Tang Yik pole form or from that Hung Kuen form is unclear as well.

I like the idea of Fok Bo Chuen incorporating the knives as it seems likely. Yes from my research Yip Man only learned the techniques as there wasn't a form to learn when he first learned it from Cha Wah Shun.

 

[geezer]

I know several different pole methods from various styles, including both of these methods...

Which Yip Man lineage version did you learn? I ask this because there are significant differences between various groups --including such basic things as hand position and grip. What I learned was short and simple, engineered for a long, heavy pole, but still used a grip similar to the Tang Yik grip (with the rear hand always on top with the elbow pointing down).

I like the idea of Fok Bo Chuen incorporating the knives as it seems likely. Yes from my research Yip Man only learned the techniques as there wasn't a form to learn when he first learned it from Cha Wah Shun.

Are you saying that the WC Baat Cham Dao form (or forms) didn't exist in Chan Wah Shun's era, or simply that the young Yip Man didn't learn it in his early years with Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So?

 

[DanT]

Which Yip Man lineage version did you learn? I ask this because there are significant differences between various groups --including such basic things as hand position and grip. What I learned was short and simple, engineered for a long, heavy pole, but still used a grip similar to the Tang Yik grip (with the rear hand always on top with the elbow pointing down).



Are you saying that the WC Baat Cham Dao form (or forms) didn't exist in Chan Wah Shun's era, or simply that the young Yip Man didn't learn it in his early years with Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So?

Hey Geezer,

WSL and Moy Yat.

Not that they didn't exist, but that Cha Wah Shun did not know a BJD form, only the techniques and applications. Yip Man's BJD form(s) were formulated by him.

 

[KPM]

You know....one school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally one long form that was later broken down into the 3 form format of SNT, CK, and BG. Yik Kam Wing Chun is just one long form and represents the "original" version according to Hendrick Santos. Another school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally a loose collection of techniques and short drills....San Sik....that were elaborated upon and developed and eventually organized into the 3 form format. I've heard it said that when Leung Jan was teaching the San Sik format in Ku Lo village he was returning to an older version of the system. But I've also heard that it was his own "cliff notes" version of the system and it was easier to teach it quickly as San Sik rather than the 3 form progression. Supposedly ancestral White Crane was originally taught in a San Sik format. If so, this would support the idea of "ancestral" Wing Chun taught that way as well. This would make it very natural to have originally learned both the knives and the pole in a similar format.....short drills or San Sik with applications that were later organized into longer forms. The knives are essentially just an extension of the empty hands anyway. Leung Jan did not originally teach the knives in Ku Lo village. But it didn't take long for the Ku Lo guys to realize you could pick up a set of knives and do each of the San Sik with them!

Who knows! Too bad we don't have a time machine to go back and find out!

 

[wckf92]

You know....one school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally one long form that was later broken down into the 3 form format of SNT, CK, and BG. Yik Kam Wing Chun is just one long form and represents the "original" version according to Hendrick Santos. Another school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally a loose collection of techniques and short drills....San Sik....that were elaborated upon and developed and eventually organized into the 3 form format. I've heard it said that when Leung Jan was teaching the San Sik format in Ku Lo village he was returning to an older version of the system. But I've also heard that it was his own "cliff notes" version of the system and it was easier to teach it quickly as San Sik rather than the 3 form progression. Supposedly ancestral White Crane was originally taught in a San Sik format. If so, this would support the idea of "ancestral" Wing Chun taught that way as well. This would make it very natural to have originally learned both the knives and the pole in a similar format.....short drills or San Sik with applications that were later organized into longer forms. The knives are essentially just an extension of the empty hands anyway. Leung Jan did not originally teach the knives in Ku Lo village. But it didn't take long for the Ku Lo guys to realize you could pick up a set of knives and do each of the San Sik with them!

Who knows! Too bad we don't have a time machine to go back and find out!

I wonder if other CMA's have similar histories(?)

 

[wckf92]

Hey Geezer,

WSL and Moy Yat.

Not that they didn't exist, but that Cha Wah Shun did not know a BJD form, only the techniques and applications. Yip Man's BJD form(s) were formulated by him.

Were the two methods vastly different? Do you prefer one over the other (WSL's vs. Moy Yat's)?

I note you said "Yip Man's BJD form(s)...haha. Makes one wonder just how many different formS he created.

 

[DanT]

You know....one school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally one long form that was later broken down into the 3 form format of SNT, CK, and BG. Yik Kam Wing Chun is just one long form and represents the "original" version according to Hendrick Santos. Another school of thought says that Wing Chun was originally a loose collection of techniques and short drills....San Sik....that were elaborated upon and developed and eventually organized into the 3 form format. I've heard it said that when Leung Jan was teaching the San Sik format in Ku Lo village he was returning to an older version of the system. But I've also heard that it was his own "cliff notes" version of the system and it was easier to teach it quickly as San Sik rather than the 3 form progression. Supposedly ancestral White Crane was originally taught in a San Sik format. If so, this would support the idea of "ancestral" Wing Chun taught that way as well. This would make it very natural to have originally learned both the knives and the pole in a similar format.....short drills or San Sik with applications that were later organized into longer forms. The knives are essentially just an extension of the empty hands anyway. Leung Jan did not originally teach the knives in Ku Lo village. But it didn't take long for the Ku Lo guys to realize you could pick up a set of knives and do each of the San Sik with them!

Who knows! Too bad we don't have a time machine to go back and find out!

KPM,

All sources point to an early Wing Chun (prior to the 1850 Taiping Uprising), as having a single form called Siu Lam Tao (shaolin idea), given that it combined Shaolin White Crane and Southern Snake styles. The form has actually 4 sections, the first section is identical to The modern Siu Nim Tao (little idea). The second section is very close to Chum Kiu. The third section is like Biu Jee but a bit shorter, and the fourth section is like the wooden dummy (in a weird order for the Yip Man people) and a bit of BJD footwork and concepts.

This long form was broken down into the three forms plus the wooden dummy "form" which wasn't a real "form" just random sections thrown together, most likely by Leung Jan, which is why Leung Jan's kung fu brothers all have a single long Siu Lam Tao form.

 

[wckf92]

KPM,

All sources point to an early Wing Chun (prior to the 1850 Taiping Uprising), as having a single form called Siu Lam Tao (shaolin idea), given that it combined Shaolin White Crane and Southern Snake styles. The form has actually 4 sections, the first section is identical to The modern Siu Nim Tao (little idea). The second section is very close to Chum Kiu. The third section is like Biu Jee but a bit shorter, and the fourth section is like the wooden dummy (in a weird order for the Yip Man people) and a bit of BJD footwork and concepts.

This long form was broken down into the three forms plus the wooden dummy "form" which wasn't a real "form" just random sections thrown together, most likely by Leung Jan, which is why Leung Jan's kung fu brothers all have a single long Siu Lam Tao form.

Is this long 4 section form still known today? Anyone teaching it?

 

[DanT]

Is this long 4 section form still known today? Anyone teaching it?

Yes, Wong Wah Bo (Leung Jan's Sifu), also taught two other students: Yik Kam and Law Man Kung. Law Man Kung visited Leung Jan and saw that he had broken down his system into three shorter forms and created a bunch of "wooden dummy sections" from the forth section of the long form. Law Man Kung adopted this lay out from Leung Jan and taught it to his students. Yik Kam however kept it as one long form. Yik Kam passed all his knowledge to the Cho family who preserve the single set today.

 

[DanT]

Were the two methods vastly different? Do you prefer one over the other (WSL's vs. Moy Yat's)?

I note you said "Yip Man's BJD form(s)...haha. Makes one wonder just how many different formS he created.

The two pole methods are extremely similar, they have trivial differences.

In terms of the BJD.... the problem was that Yip Man wasn't a good "teacher" in the teaching sense... he would show you a move once and tell you to do it 3000 times while he would go take a nap, then he would come back an hour later and take a quick look, and then go outside and smoke, etc, etc. He wasn't gonna stand there and hold the mitts for you so to speak...

Furthermore, like I said before, for the BJD Yip Man knew drills, combinations, and techniques. He didn't know a form. He would teach you various drills in a certain order, and that was your "form". As long as you have all the techniques and combinations, and know the applications, you're golden. Certain students showed more interest in the BJD, and they would learn more (William Cheung for example). Other students didn't care for them much (Chu Shon Tin), and would use their time with Yip Man to learn other things.

 

[KPM]

KPM,

All sources point to an early Wing Chun (prior to the 1850 Taiping Uprising), as having a single form called Siu Lam Tao (shaolin idea), given that it combined Shaolin White Crane and Southern Snake styles..

What sources are you referring to other than Hendrik Santos and the Cho Family Wing Chun lineage? The whole Yik Kam story is only one lineage's myth as far as I've ever seen. Where has it been backed up by other sources? The Cho family could have just as easily taken an original 3 form format and strung it all together for convenience sake, given that they teach so many other things besides the Wing Chun. Lots of people have disputed what Hendrik has said over the years. And I've never seen Yik Kam noted in any other lineage's accounts.

 

[DanT]

What sources are you referring to other than Hendrik Santos and the Cho Family Wing Chun lineage? The whole Yik Kam story is only one lineage's myth as far as I've ever seen. Where has it been backed up by other sources? The Cho family could have just as easily taken an original 3 form format and strung it all together for convenience sake, given that they teach so many other things besides the Wing Chun. Lots of people have disputed what Hendrik has said over the years. And I've never seen Yik Kam noted in any other lineage's accounts.

Admittedly there is not much evidence outside of the Cho Family.

The Cho Family does have records dating back to Yik Kam however and these suggest a single long form.

Furthermore I have a ton of oral tradition from having spoken to Yip Man's students contemporaries from other lineages who give similar accounts.

I'm working on a Wing Chun family tree back from Leung Lan Kwai / Chung Ng to Yip Man, and I'm trying to include all branches and dates. One day I'll publish it here on martial talk.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ Ok. But that is much different from saying "All sources point to an early Wing Chun having a single form." "All" sources do not say that at all!

 

[DanT]

^^^^ Ok. But that is much different from saying "All sources point to an early Wing Chun having a single form." "All" sources do not say that at all!

What I mean is, all sources indicate that there was a single long form, and there aren't any sources that dispute that.

 

[KPM]

What I mean is, all sources indicate that there was a single long form, and there aren't any sources that dispute that.

But "all sources" do not say there was a single long form. Only Hendik and Cho family says there was originally a single long form. I've never seen another lineage story say that, nor have I seen any of the noted Wing Chun "researchers" state that other than Hendrik. Most assume things just started with our current 3 form system. As I pointed out, it could be just as likely that Wing Chun started as San Sik that were later combined into the 3 forms. Leung Jan teaching San Sik in Ku Lo village would tend support this. The Ku Lo guys are at least one source that disputes the "one long form" theory. The idea that ancestral White Crane was taught as San Sik supports this. The Tang Yik Weng Chun "1st form" is composed of 11 sections that are each separated from the other by drawing the hands back to the sides just as in the Wing Chun forms. Each section also has a specific 2 man training set, just like the Ku Lo Wing Chun San Sik each has a 2 man training set. This suggests that it is possible that even the Weng Chun empty hand material started out as short drills or San Sik. To me, it makes more sense to develop and teach things in "units" or drills initially. Then combine them into forms later. So it seems to me more likely that Wing Chun would have started out as short drills and exercises that were later put together in forms than it is that Wing Chun started right from the beginning as one LONG form that was later broken into separate parts. Things just typically don't work that way.

 

[DanT]

But "all sources" do not say there was a single long form. Only Hendik and Cho family says there was originally a single long form. I've never seen another lineage story say that, nor have I seen any of the noted Wing Chun "researchers" state that other than Hendrik. Most assume things just started with our current 3 form system. As I pointed out, it could be just as likely that Wing Chun started as San Sik that were later combined into the 3 forms. Leung Jan teaching San Sik in Ku Lo village would tend support this. The Ku Lo guys are at least one source that disputes the "one long form" theory. The idea that ancestral White Crane was taught as San Sik supports this. The Tang Yik Weng Chun "1st form" is composed of 11 sections that are each separated from the other by drawing the hands back to the sides just as in the Wing Chun forms. Each section also has a specific 2 man training set, just like the Ku Lo Wing Chun San Sik each has a 2 man training set. This suggests that it is possible that even the Weng Chun empty hand material started out as short drills or San Sik. To me, it makes more sense to develop and teach things in "units" or drills initially. Then combine them into forms later. So it seems to me more likely that Wing Chun would have started out as short drills and exercises that were later put together in forms than it is that Wing Chun started right from the beginning as one LONG form that was later broken into separate parts. Things just typically don't work that way.

You could very well be right. I'll share with you one of the reasons why I feel like it was originally one long form however. If you look at the core form of the Ancestral Bak Hok Kuen system, it is strikingly similar to Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu combined. Taking into account that Wing Chun is a combination of Ancestral Bak Hok Kuen and Sei Kuen, and that Biu Jee contains moves primarily found in Sei Kuen (snake style), it's not a stretch to believe that originally whoever founded Wing Chun added on Sei Kuen techniques cleverly at the end of their Ancestral Crane form, and it kicked off from there.

 

[wckf92]

Perhaps @LFJ could clarify...(or anyone):

What are the names (or "points"?) of the two small wrist movements that guy is doing in the WSL pole form video I posted? Are they small circling "Huen" ideas? Or perhaps a Tan/Fook or Tan/Jaam idea?

Thx in advance!

 

[wckf92]

In a recent Wing Chun Illustrated magazine article...couple of interesting snippets:

 

[Marnetmar]

Who is "many people"? Who wrote that article?

 

[wckf92]

Who is "many people"? Who wrote that article?

Some dude named Kleber