Tang Yik pole
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Yes. I learned the version taught by Augustine Fong many many years ago. But I didn't keep it up and couldn't perform the entire sequence today. But I am still pretty familiar with the mechanics used in Ip Man Pole. I think Sifu Fong's pole was a little bit "elaborated" with some things added. It is much longer than most Ip Man lineage's Pole forms.
I asked for someone to post a good representative Ip Man pole form so that as I pointed out differences people following along would have a reference for what I was saying. Guy asked me to describe the difference between Ip Man pole and Tang Yik pole. I posted the Tang Yik pole video as a reference for people to see. In order to make a fair comparison we need a good Ip Man pole form for reference.
dudewingchun
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How would you thrust the pole? Im just curious because its something iv always wandered about.
wckf92
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rear arm / elbow is out and raised
In the Tang Yik pole, the rear elbow should not be out and raised! It should be tucked into the body so that both shoulders and the pole make one straight line. If the elbow comes up, the rear shoulder comes forward and you break that straight line that provides the best power vector for the thrust. Another mistake often seen is holding the pole with the rear hand palm up during the thrust. This is not a secure grip. If your pole is countered by a strong blow from above, the back of the pole is going to come out of your hand and slam upward into your face! The rear hand should be palm down to prevent this.
wckf92
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wckf92
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Here are some others I found on YT (for reference and discussion purposes WRT the Tang Yik form)
Wing Chun Long Pole Form (Chris Chan Lineage)
Wing Chun Long Pole Form
Wing Chun Pole Form: Luk Dim Boon Kwan
Can't say I'm too keen on what has been shown as "YM pole" so far. Lots of disconnected upper and lower body, no whole body force, poor footwork, weak arms, etc..
Here's the only video I can find showing the full set of the WSL version.
Form:
Solo Training:
Partner Training:
Here's the only video I can find showing the full set of the WSL version.
Form:
Yes! That is my friend Max Kraft from Berlin.
Ok. After a quick perusal, here's what I see:
1. Almost everyone is making what is considered a fundamental mistake in Tang Yik pole.....gripping in a palm up position with the rear hand during the thrust. This will get you smacked in the face with your own pole if the opponent defends with a downward blow on your pole!
2. CST himself is making the second mistake I mentioned before....he is letting his rear elbow and therefore also the rear shoulder move forward during the thrust and not keeping a straight line vector with the pole and the shoulders.
3. No lateral footwork (or at least very little) in the Ip Man forms. This is considered very important in Tang Yik pole, and you see lots of it in the form! The Tang Yik pole has a wider range of footwork in general.
4. Obviously much less variety of movement and technique in the Ip Man forms. The Tang Yik version is much more comprehensive as a fighting method.
5. Tang Yik pole mechanics uses the front leg for support, power, and control of the pole. This is how you avoid "muscling" the pole...even one of the long heavy ones. This is how you can move quickly and precisely....your lower body is moving the pole, not your upper body. Watch most of the Ip Man versions for comparison and see how often they look like they are "muscling" the pole around.
6. Very little low-line defense in the Ip Man version. Watch the Tang Yik footage again. If you pay attention you will see a low sweep prior to the half-circle to regain the line at almost every transition. This is called "Po Kwan" and Sifu said it should really be considered another "point" because it is used so often! Then it would be a "7 1/2 point pole form"!
1. Almost everyone is making what is considered a fundamental mistake in Tang Yik pole.....gripping in a palm up position with the rear hand during the thrust. This will get you smacked in the face with your own pole if the opponent defends with a downward blow on your pole!
2. CST himself is making the second mistake I mentioned before....he is letting his rear elbow and therefore also the rear shoulder move forward during the thrust and not keeping a straight line vector with the pole and the shoulders.
3. No lateral footwork (or at least very little) in the Ip Man forms. This is considered very important in Tang Yik pole, and you see lots of it in the form! The Tang Yik pole has a wider range of footwork in general.
4. Obviously much less variety of movement and technique in the Ip Man forms. The Tang Yik version is much more comprehensive as a fighting method.
5. Tang Yik pole mechanics uses the front leg for support, power, and control of the pole. This is how you avoid "muscling" the pole...even one of the long heavy ones. This is how you can move quickly and precisely....your lower body is moving the pole, not your upper body. Watch most of the Ip Man versions for comparison and see how often they look like they are "muscling" the pole around.
6. Very little low-line defense in the Ip Man version. Watch the Tang Yik footage again. If you pay attention you will see a low sweep prior to the half-circle to regain the line at almost every transition. This is called "Po Kwan" and Sifu said it should really be considered another "point" because it is used so often! Then it would be a "7 1/2 point pole form"!
I couldn't find any clips of LT's Ip Man long-pole form. One of the clips posted (the "Wing Chun Sweden" guys) use the "WT" spelling but are not practicing LT's form. I'm not surprised since LT holds the pole and knives back and charges a fortune for them.
At any rate, Having learned (very badly, I admit) LT's form (lack of regular practice and correction will do that ya know) ...I'm totally in agreement with KPM about the elbow position and rear hand. LT taught keeping the elbow pointing down by your side and the rear hand palm down so that an opponent's sharp downward strike on your pole wouldn't cause the butt end to pop upwards out of your hand and into your face!!! Here's a clip by Alex Richter that shows that detail:
BTW: LT's form is very short (28 moves as I count them). We do step sideways to perform our "half fence" movement, but the form doesn't have the kind of light, quick lateral movement seen in the Tang Yik video. Those steps look very useful ...if you ever were to actually fight with a pole anyway.
At any rate, Having learned (very badly, I admit) LT's form (lack of regular practice and correction will do that ya know) ...I'm totally in agreement with KPM about the elbow position and rear hand. LT taught keeping the elbow pointing down by your side and the rear hand palm down so that an opponent's sharp downward strike on your pole wouldn't cause the butt end to pop upwards out of your hand and into your face!!! Here's a clip by Alex Richter that shows that detail:
BTW: LT's form is very short (28 moves as I count them). We do step sideways to perform our "half fence" movement, but the form doesn't have the kind of light, quick lateral movement seen in the Tang Yik video. Those steps look very useful ...if you ever were to actually fight with a pole anyway.
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What makes this a real threat is people holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy. We generally won't just go thrusting at people as a first action. We want to open a line of attack so that the opponent's pole is not above ours during the thrust anyway.
But unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best. In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it. It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
By forward, you mean perpendicular to the body and line of attack? I agree. Should be in alignment with the thrust.
Rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
TY pole does appear to have more footwork and technique variety, but the YM pole form is not the entirety of the pole system.
Just like the knives, or in fact the rest of the empty hand system, the forms are just homework. The meat of the fighting method and training system is contained in the many drills we do. We are always more mobile in application than the forms let on.
Absolutely. TY does this very well. Most "YM" versions have a glaring disconnect of upper and lower body. No whole body force.
6. Very little low-line defense in the Ip Man version. Watch the Tang Yik footage again. If you pay attention you will see a low sweep prior to the half-circle to regain the line at almost every transition. This is called "Po Kwan" and Sifu said it should really be considered another "point" because it is used so often! Then it would be a "7 1/2 point pole form"!
Well, that's cool. I like TY pole, but it appears to differ in strategy. I don't think there's a need for any more low-line defense than what is there in YM pole. It's enough for the strategy to work.
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