wing chun history is not important

[guy b.]

Then maybe you shouldn't make such sweeping statements.

You identified a list of people, the majority of whom YM obviously did not give a sh1t about. I have direct experience of several of these. I advised you to use your eyes and increase your cynicism. Is this a sweeping statement? Seems like common sense to me. I have not singled any particular person out for criticism.

Use your eyes and your hands to see, then you will see. End of story.

Ah! The "true believer syndrome" is one in which someone has become utterly convinced that their lineage is the one and only very best lineage of Wing Chun in the entire universe!.

I am completly open to the possibility of other wing chun that works. I have just not encountered it so far in my life. I look forward to the day that I do. Please show or discuss your functional wing chun.

despite knowing very little about the other lineages and versions of Wing Chun.

I have seen a lot of wing chun. I have only seen a single wing chun that works. What conclusion should I draw beyond what I have outlined above?

Did I miss anything Steve?

From here it looks like you missed almost everything

 

[guy b.]

It's that kind of "culty" thing that some people get into where they think that only their sifu, system, and lineage is any good.

I was actually a little bit like that for a while when I first started training. But fortunately, my own skeptical and curious nature pulled me out of it before I had to have my eyes opened via a major butt-kicking!

There is a difference between being agnostic and being a dupe. Holding the possibility of another functional wing chun is all that is required. They appear to be thin on the ground for some reason.

 

[geezer]

There is a difference between being agnostic and being a dupe. Holding the possibility of another functional wing chun is all that is required...

Are you comparing yourself to an agnostic by admitting that there is always a possibility (however unlikely) of the unobserved existing?

So, in short you feel that the only functional WC is WSL VT ....although you humbly admit that somehow, somewhere, it is conceivably possible that some other WC could also be functional...just that you haven't seen any evidence of it!

Guy, I guess it may surprise you, but there are people all over, from many branches or lineages who have found their WC to be functional. I'm not talking MMA champions, just regular martial artists who make WC work for them. If you haven't met anybody like that, maybe you need to get out more?

 

[guy b.]

Are you comparing yourself to an agnostic by admitting that there is always a possibility (however unlikely) of the unobserved existing?

I am agnostic about the possibility of other functional wing chun

So, in short you feel that the only functional WC is WSL VT

No, I don't think I am in a position to write off the whole of wing chun

it is conceivably possible that some other WC could also be functional...just that you haven't seen any evidence of it

Of course

I guess it may surprise you, but there are people all over, from many branches or lineages who have found their WC to be functional

I have seen a lot of people who believed their wing chun to be functional.

 

[Phobius]

Guy, where do you position yourself and how your WC is in terms of functionality? You feel you are better than every single other practitioner of any other lineage other than your own?

Or is it your opinion based on looking at their art and stating that in your mind it would not work for you as a functional system?

Question is important to understand if there is anything worth discussing.

 

[LFJ]

---Ok. Both you and LFJ have used the term "most" several times, implying not "all." So who do you guys see as having "good" Wing Chun from Ip Man other than Wong Shun Leung? Who else was a "good learner" that Ip Man was attentive to other than Wong Shun Leung?

I say "most" because I haven't seen all of his students, but the "mainstream" ones are not good, imo. By mainstream, I mean those with the farthest reaching and most populated lineages in the world, i.e.; Leung, Cheung, Tsui, Yip1 & Yip2. Among them, there is not a single fighter or anyone I think has good Wing Chun.

I understand there are some fighters within some of these lineages, but I am firmly of the belief that fighters are born, not made. If you have it in your DNA to be a fighter, you can make almost anything work for you. But there are poor systems that may hamper your potential, while a good system will bring out your best. Having a born fighter or two in a lineage doesn't mean the system is good or works for most people. I've seen fighters come from some of these lineages, start with WSLVT and improve exponentially. That's the result of a fighter's DNA put through a great system.

Different lineages have elements of what YM taught but tend to fall to bits due to incoherence and made up elements. WSL VT is simply the full picture. Obvious when you have learned a version that is just bits and pieces the moved to WSL VT.

---Sounds like "True Believer Syndrome" emerging to me. ;-)

That's not a fair judgement. It's not just a claim of superiority coming from nothing more than a biased attitude. It's an observation made by literally thousands who have switched lineages and noticed the same thing. Each step and element of WSLVT simply fit together and function better as a coherent development system. That's objective fact in all fairness.

A fw years back when there was a lot of fuss about Alan Orr (Robert Chu) wing chun I went and tried it. I was not that impressed compared to the WSL approach, but I think it has some elements that are better than other wing chun I have seen. Overall I would call it a gap-filled wing chun but one that is aimed at modern sporting comps so ends up better than most for this reason, i.e. the training approach includes contact and real time.

I agree with this. Of all the other lineages of Wing Chun, this is really the only one I don't have much of a problem with, although it doesn't really function like YM VT. It is clearly gap-filled Wing Chun, but it is no doubt functional for its purpose, which is modern sporting competition. It is not preferable for my purposes though, and I don't look at it as being the same style anymore.

 

[guy b.]

Guy, where do you position yourself and how your WC is in terms of functionality? You feel you are better than every single other practitioner of any other lineage other than your own?

Or is it your opinion based on looking at their art and stating that in your mind it would not work for you as a functional system?

Question is important to understand if there is anything worth discussing.

You are asking me an either or question where neither option is agreeable.

 

[Phobius]

You are asking me an either or question where neither option is agreeable.

Those were Yes/No questions, except the first one which was a question that is free text. No "Either/Or" question at all.

 

[Phobius]

That's not a fair judgement. It's not just a claim of superiority coming from nothing more than a biased attitude. It's an observation made by literally thousands who have switched lineages and noticed the same thing. Each step and element of WSLVT simply fit together and function better as a coherent development system. That's objective fact in all fairness.

And here the thread once more dropped down to a "my art is better than your art".

Simple fact for you, nothing is considered proof until it can be proven. Stating that there are 1000 fighters at least that switched system and saw the superiority of WSLVT is a statement all lineages can make. You just decided to stop being part of a discussion.

Stop drinking the kool-aid people, your art... my art... all arts are all without the secret recipe that can rule the world. Is is your teacher/sifu that helps to train a fighter. If he is good or bad only his students know for a fact. WSL was a fighter does not mean he was the best teacher. Someone being a teacher does not mean they are a fighter.

Any discussion as to what is "best" as a fighting art can go join a debate club. Let the rest of us explore our art, train and discuss areas of interest to find new ways to not locate the roots of our art but rather evolve it to something even more beautiful.

 

[guy b.]

Those were Yes/No questions, except the first one which was a question that is free text. No "Either/Or" question at all.

"You feel you are better than every single other practitioner of any other lineage other than your own?

Or is it your opinion based on looking at their art and stating that in your mind it would not work for you as a functional system?

-Neither

 

[guy b.]

And here the thread once more dropped down to a "my art is better than your art".

Simple fact for you, nothing is considered proof until it can be proven. Stating that there are 1000 fighters at least that switched system and saw the superiority of WSLVT is a statement all lineages can make. You just decided to stop being part of a discussion.

Stop drinking the kool-aid people, your art... my art... all arts are all without the secret recipe that can rule the world. Is is your teacher/sifu that helps to train a fighter. If he is good or bad only his students know for a fact. WSL was a fighter does not mean he was the best teacher. Someone being a teacher does not mean they are a fighter.

Any discussion as to what is "best" as a fighting art can go join a debate club. Let the rest of us explore our art, train and discuss areas of interest to find new ways to not locate the roots of our art but rather evolve it to something even more beautiful.

Specifics have been raised already, particularly by LFJ.

 

[LFJ]

Well, I understand it causes butthurt to say so, but those who disagree with it have not gone to hear the full explanation of WSLVT in person and try it out with someone who knows it well, so they have no frame of reference to understand the comparisons made and just want to label it "true believer syndrome", which is a stupid thing to do. Those who have gone, and there have been literally thousands, have not looked back since.

 

[guy b.]

I find WSL VT compared with other wing chun to be a bit like the situation in the early 2000s with BJJ compared to other grappling arts. There was a lot of confusion at that time about the best approach for full contact fighting competitions which allowed ground grappling. Lots of people did various kinds of sub grappling taught by a multitude of different people. There was a lot of debate about gi vs no-gi. Of course lots of judo, sombo and traditional jiu jitsu people tried to jump on the band wagon by increasing emphasis on ground grappling. There was a big bebate about the efficacy of catch wrestling vs BJJ. And of course many of the early BJJ teachers coming over from Brazil to Europe were not the best.

Over time this early confusion and disagreement has dissolved because in reality, when tested honestly, there is no ground grappling system that comes close to BJJ in terms of coherence, systematization, ideas, organisation, genius of conception, depth of quality people and genuine efficacy in ground grappling situations. If someone came out with an argument that judo or catch wrestling was a better approach today then they would look like a fool.

The problem with wing chun is that there is no honest process like grappling and MMA competition eliminating less workable approaches, and so far wing chun continues to suffer as a result. This may resolve if wing chun manages to make a mark in right fighting competition, or it may not. All I can say is that having seen other wing chun, WSL VT is more than a step change. It actually works!

 

[Phobius]

guy b. I have no problem with you stating that it is the best art you have seen. It is your right to feel and think as such.

Just felt that LFJ stating that there are some undisputable facts that prove WSLVT superiority is just bad for discussion. Such a statement is just as flawed in the way that it holds no proof as much as it is demeaning to all fighters and lineages out there including WSLVT.

Normally when people profess their superiority over others it is because they are unsure themselves and think more frequently they state it the more true it becomes.

Sad part is that I dont want to hear what should be the truth, I know what I learn works for me, however what I do want to learn is what others do to either see room for improvements or to simply find new ways to test my own knowledge as it exist today. As such it is interesting to understand if you feel your art is the best in the World, and if you feel yourself superior to all other practitioners of other lineages.

EDIT: Sorry btw, missread your answer. Thought you were questioning whether it was a Yes or No question. Think with ´Neither´ your answer is No to both. Please ignore what I wrote here.

 

[LFJ]

Just felt that LFJ stating that there are some undisputable facts that prove WSLVT superiority is just bad for discussion. Such a statement is just as flawed in the way that it holds no proof as much as it is demeaning to all fighters and lineages out there including WSLVT.

There is proof for what I've said: the observable components of each system and their level of coherence and functionality as a system for skill development. You haven't examined it. Doesn't mean it's not there. Go find out for yourself.

 

[KPM]

You identified a list of people, the majority of whom YM obviously did not give a sh1t about. I have direct experience of several of these. I advised you to use your eyes and increase your cynicism. Is this a sweeping statement? Seems like common sense to me. I have not singled any particular person out for criticism.

Use your eyes and your hands to see, then you will see. End of story.

"the majority of whom YM obviously did not give a sh1t about" THAT is a rather sweeping statement! How do you know who Ip Man did and did not "give a sh1t about"??? Do you know them all? Where you there? Have you actually spoken to them to hear there stories? "End of story.".....spoken like a "True Believer"!

 

[KPM]

I

That's not a fair judgement. It's not just a claim of superiority coming from nothing more than a biased attitude. It's an observation made by literally thousands who have switched lineages and noticed the same thing. Each step and element of WSLVT simply fit together and function better as a coherent development system. That's objective fact in all fairness.
.

And I've seen William Cheung people say the same thing. I forgot one characteristic of the "True Believer Syndrome"! Someone in the grips of this affliction very often cannot see it themselves and do not realize that they have been infected!

 

[KPM]

Let the record show that both Guy and LFJ have said they are NOT claiming that WSL learned the only "real" Wing Chun from Ip Man. They have used phrases like "most" and "majority", etc when referring to other Ip Man students, to give the impression that there are others besides WSL. But when put to the question neither one can name a single student of Ip Man other than WSL that they feel learned Ip Man's art the "right" way. And that's about as far as this line of discussion is going to go.

 

[LFJ]

And I've seen William Cheung people say the same thing.

I don't believe you are being honest about that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know, I likely have much less experience in Wing Chun than anyone posting here but I have to say from my little exposure to the Ip Ching and Leung Sheng side of this whole discussion I get the impression that the answer to all of this would be....."that's nice.... now shut up and train"....and to be honest I suspect you might get the same exact statement from WSL.

Take it for what it is worth from a Taijiquan/Xingyiquan guy that dabbles in Wing Chun from time to time