Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[Wing Woo Gar]

I like wrist grabbers. That might be my favorite thing to counter.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Excerpt from "Notes on the Tai Chi Training Method called Ti Fang" by Stephen Goodson:

In the Ti Fang exercise, your initial contact with your partner is at 4oz of pressure. You should have a good feel for this amount of pressure from the preliminary learning of the Push Hands choreography. Suffice to say that it's just about 4oz. Once this contact is established you then start to gently push. When the pressure builds to just more than 4oz [say 5oz] they will reflexively raise slightly, you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect], and then you accelerate them [pushing through their center]. The withdraw "severs the root" of your opponent so that when you accelerate them away you meet little/no resistance. If you get it right both his feet will leave the ground as he hops away...

I call this shake the baby .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you have badly misunderstood the nature and goals of tai chi practice. It is too easy for you to criticize others. Why don't you post an answer by yourself?

- If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.
- When you try to break that wrist grab, your opponent already makes next move. You are always 1 step behind.

In MA training, it's so important not to let your opponent to establish a bridge (or grab on your wrist). But the Taiji PH training just doesn't put enough emphasize on it.

What's the answer for this? I think the Taiji PH training should start from 2 person without arm contact. If you try to use your arm to contact your opponent's arm, or if you try to grab his wrist, he can rotate his arm the same direction as your arm does to avoid contact. The PH only starts when your arm and your opponent's arm can make contact.

The PRO of this extra adding training:

- will not affect the rest of your PH training.
- can develop your skill not to allow your opponent to contact your arm, or grab on your wrist.
- can make you understand that with arm contact or without arm contact is under your control.

The Taiji PH training then can be more combat realistic. Your Taiji PH training will have more combat value.

IMO, the Taiji PH training may start from a distance (like the following clip). When your opponent moves his arms the same direction as your arms is moving, the arm contact will not happen. But if you suddenly reverse your arms moving direction (and if your opponent doesn't change his arm moving direction fast enough), the arms will make contact. This experience is so important in some MA applications such as to

- use hook punch to counter a hook punch (rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's hook punch).
- change wrist grab into comb hair (reverse arm rotation direction) to obtain a clinch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like wrist grabbers. That might be my favorite thing to counter.

Sometime your opponent's wrist grab can be just a set up. When you try to counter it, he already makes next move.

- The right wrist grab,
- left elbow grab, and
- right punch,

can be done within 1/4 second. To pay any attention on the 1st wrist grabbing can be waste of effort.

 

[Teapot]

- If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.
- When you try to break that wrist grab, your opponent already makes next move. You are always 1 step behind.

In MA training, it's so important not to let your opponent to establish a bridge (or grab on your wrist). But the Taiji PH training just doesn't put enough emphasize on it.

What's the answer for this? I think the Taiji PH training should start from 2 person without arm contact. If you try to use your arm to contact your opponent's arm, or if you try to grab his wrist, he can rotate his arm the same direction as your arm does to avoid contact. The PH only starts when your arm and your opponent's arm can make contact.

The PRO of this extra adding training:

- will not affect the rest of your PH training.
- can develop your skill not to allow your opponent to contact your arm, or grab on your wrist.
- can make you understand that with arm contact or without arm contact is under your control.

The Taiji PH training then can be more combat realistic. Your Taiji PH training will have more combat value.

IMO, the Taiji PH training may start from a distance (like the following clip). When your opponent moves his arms the same direction as your arms is moving, the arm contact will not happen. But if you suddenly reverse your arms moving direction (and if your opponent doesn't change his arm moving direction fast enough), the arms will make contact. This experience is so important in some MA applications such as to

- use hook punch to counter a hook punch (rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's hook punch).
- change wrist grab into comb hair (reverse arm rotation direction) to obtain a clinch.

There's already a term for non-contact: Sanshou.

Originally, Taijiquan had both Tuishou and Sanshou. Tuishou is not the sum-total of Taijiquan.

But really, the problem is just that most Taiji practitioners suck at Tuishou.

If you are saying "If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.", then I'd imagine you know what I mean when I say that too many Push Hand practitioners place way too much emphasis on trying to push someone far away.

It's a very low-hanging fruit.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sometime your opponent's wrist grab can be just a set up. When you try to counter it, he already makes next move.

- The right wrist grab,
- left elbow grab, and
- right punch,

can be done within 1/4 second. To pay any attention on the 1st wrist grabbing can be waste of effort.

I don’t expect them to keep it. They grab me, their mind is there, I am already somewhere else.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There's already a term for non-contact: Sanshou.

Originally, Taijiquan had both Tuishou and Sanshou. Tuishou is not the sum-total of Taijiquan.

But really, the problem is just that most Taiji practitioners suck at Tuishou.

If you are saying "If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.", then I'd imagine you know what I mean when I say that too many Push Hand practitioners place way too much emphasis on trying to push someone far away.

It's a very low-hanging fruit.

I agree, the majority do not represent the whole.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Push hands is taught too early IMO. My teacher made us learn just one tiny piece at a time. We never even saw any tuishou in the first couple years.

 

[Appledog]

Push hands is taught too early IMO. My teacher made us learn just one tiny piece at a time. We never even saw any tuishou in the first couple years.

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

- If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.
- When you try to break that wrist grab, your opponent already makes next move. You are always 1 step behind.

In MA training, it's so important not to let your opponent to establish a bridge (or grab on your wrist). But the Taiji PH training just doesn't put enough emphasize on it.

What's the answer for this? I think the Taiji PH training should start from 2 person without arm contact. If you try to use your arm to contact your opponent's arm, or if you try to grab his wrist, he can rotate his arm the same direction as your arm does to avoid contact. The PH only starts when your arm and your opponent's arm can make contact.

The PRO of this extra adding training:

- will not affect the rest of your PH training.
- can develop your skill not to allow your opponent to contact your arm, or grab on your wrist.
- can make you understand that with arm contact or without arm contact is under your control.

The Taiji PH training then can be more combat realistic. Your Taiji PH training will have more combat value.

IMO, the Taiji PH training may start from a distance (like the following clip). When your opponent moves his arms the same direction as your arms is moving, the arm contact will not happen. But if you suddenly reverse your arms moving direction (and if your opponent doesn't change his arm moving direction fast enough), the arms will make contact. This experience is so important in some MA applications such as to

- use hook punch to counter a hook punch (rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's hook punch).
- change wrist grab into comb hair (reverse arm rotation direction) to obtain a clinch.

I think I better understand your point now, but I don’t think this is lacking in proper tai chi training.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

First one is is level one long fist Chin na. Very effective and of a higher quality than the white crane version.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

The second is not a good example. The demonstrator’s hands are too close to his body. Additionally, his angle is incorrect.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

Number two is literally level one chin na in the first technique set. This guy is a beginner level chin na player.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

The third vide o, well, I’m just not gonna try not to get banned for trolling again over videos like this pile. I mean really? I feel like maybe you are trolling me. This guy with the Halloween costume is an expert? Tell me you are joking. I read your posts, you seem more informed than this. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the third video has so many things wrong it’s difficult to watch. I’m a sucker for sure, but not quite that far.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle

Lastly, the names. As far this goes, I’m not a speaker of any Chinese dialects. The names are just that. My Sifu told me, “it doesn’t matter what I call it, you aren’t Chinese, we aren’t in 19th century China.” Angles matter, being able to perceive and capitalize on angles in real time is where the sauce is. You can call it secret sauce for all I care. It’s physics, it’s training those concepts into the body in an athletic way with consistent repetition over time that increases reaction and proprioceptive capabilities that can be capitalized upon by understanding angles and likely qualities of the relative structures involved. In short, I say, it’s me in relationship to me, it’s me in relationship to the earth. Thus, if I feel myself better than you feel yourself, I have some advantage. If I can feel you better than you feel yourself, I have additional advantage.

 

[windwalker099]

What is shown is not at real speed.

I used to train with Brendan Lai and his group, 7 Star Mantis. My background at the time was in Plum Blossom Mantis, a bit different.

In Northern Praying Mantis, the concept of "beats" refers to sequences of movements typically grouped into 3 to 5 actions. These beats are designed to create fluid, continuous attacks or defenses that overwhelm an opponent and maintain control of the fight.

In this sense, they are "blind." Once a practitioner launches an attack, it can be difficult to change it in real time because it is part of a pre-trained sequence that responds to a specific stimulus or trigger, executed at high speed.

I had a match in Korea using Mantis at the time. To my surprise, I ended up getting caught in between movements of these "combinations," unable to adapt them in real time. It’s similar to a boxer getting caught in the middle of a combination they’ve trained.

While training with Mr. Lai's group, we practiced something called "Ou Lou Choy" (钩搂捶), which translates to hook, grab, strike, commonly referred to as 1, 2, 3.

Due to my Taiji background, I unconsciously followed the other person's force, causing them to fall to the ground. Mr. Lai came over and said, "No, that's not the way we do it." He corrected my movement.
What I noted was that the focus was on the combination, not on real-time sensing.

I am not a fan of N-Mantis, no longer practice the style....while interesting it was
not really what I was looking for even after having spent some time
training in the style..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think I better understand your point now, but I don’t think this is lacking in proper tai chi training.

In these clips, more training besides push has been added in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Push hands is taught too early IMO.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. I always say that BJJ guy should learn take down before they learn the ground game. Taiji guys (or any MA guys) should learn how to establish a bridge (arm contact) before learning sticky, yield, and follow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Due to my Taiji background, I unconsciously followed the other person's force, causing them to fall to the ground. Mr. Lai came over and said, "No, that's not the way we do it." He corrected my movement.
What I noted was that the focus was on the combination, not on real-time sensing.

I have used the "switch hands" to set up throw successful many times in sparring. The 1st wrist grab is a fake move, The 2nd elbow grab is real. If the 1st fake move fail, it won't affect my 2nd move because I'm not committed on the 1st move any way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what I mean when I say that too many Push Hand practitioners place way too much emphasis on trying to push someone far away.

One should keep his friend close but enemy closer.

By using Taiji PH to pull your opponent in and establish a clinch can be as important (if not more important) as to push him away.