Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[Wing Woo Gar]

While this true.
It depends on the focus of the training.
To expect all training to align with ones own focus seems kinda strange to me..

The foundation that one uses depends on what the focus of the training is trying to develop.

Is there a focus that won’t need root, balance, posture, or coordination?

 

[windwalker099]

Is there a focus that won’t need root, balance, posture, or coordination?

Maybe there is
It's called writing.

Often about things they can't really do...

 

[windwalker099]

If you train Taiji for health, you don't need to train push hand.

some history on " push hand"

6. The term “pushers” is misleading

The term "push hands" first appeared during the Qin and Han Dynasties. "Push hands" was mentioned in the explanation of the technique of playing the straight-necked pipa in "Explanation of Names, Explanation of Musical Instruments". "Push hands" was mentioned in the "Zhou Li, Autumn Officials Master of Ceremonies" of the Han Dynasty when talking about the gesture of bowing.

In modern times, the term "push hands" appeared in Tai Chi. Yang Luchan went to Beijing to teach Tai Chi in the palace. Because the people in the palace at that time lived a luxurious life, were weak, delicate, and could not endure hardships,

in order to increase their interest in practicing boxing, Yang Luchan used a rope to surround a circle, and two people practiced pushing each other in the circle.

 

[windwalker099]

7. A Push Hands Competition that Made Mistakes on Top of Mistakes

Push-hands competitions gradually emerged in the middle and late last century. At that time, our Wu-style Tai Chi masters did not approve of it.

The most basic requirement of Pan Daobi training, which is based on the concept of Tai Chi fighting, is relaxation. Only by being highly relaxed can one achieve high sensitivity.

The above two points cannot be measured by competition. Competitions must have rules. The rules are: whoever moves his feet first loses, whoever leaves the circle first loses, and whoever falls to the ground first loses. Most of the participants are young people, and some of them don’t know what Tai Chi is at all.

Therefore, "bull-fighting", "carrying hands", dragging, and even tripping are the norm in competitions. The taboos in the concept of Tai Chi, such as stiffness, hardness, stagnation, heaviness, pushing, and throwing, are common phenomena.

Isn’t this a step backward from the push-hands in the "rope circle"?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Maybe there is
It's called writing.

Often about things they can't really do...

Are you in that category? You are really good at story telling, can’t tell if it’s fiction or not but you seem educated on the topic.

 

[windwalker099]

Are you in that category? You are really good at story telling, can’t tell if it’s fiction or not but you seem educated on the topic.

Are you "trolling"

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Are you "trolling"

It sounded like you were. Are gaslighting each other?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Are you "trolling"

I was asking a sincere question.

 

[windwalker099]

It sounded like you were. Are gaslighting each other?

you are trolling

 

[windwalker099]

In Chang style Taiji, we have 4 different ways of PH training.

Other styles have different methods

In my own practice, try to simplify things to what I feel are the essentials.
single hand , double hand ,moving step ,4 corners ,free hand

The practice a little different in that the focus is on usage
outside of the developmental practices that allow for it.

Other styles may use different methods..

The story of Wu-style Tai Chi's arm-traveling and pushing hands inherited by Pei Zuyin

The words "Tai Shou", "Da Shou", "Ru Shou", "Pan Shou", "Tui Shou" are incomplete when used to describe the basic training of Tai Chi fighting skills inherited by Wu Style Tai Chi, and these words are not included in the comprehensive basic training of fighting skills based on Tai Chi concepts.

"Tai Shou", "Da Shou", "Ru Shou", "Pan Shou", "Tui Shou", these words are all aimed at the hand, which is the end of the arm, the tip of the arm, and the tip of the body.

The basic training of our Wu Style Tai Chi inherited by Pei Zuyin and the basic training of fighting skills based on Tai Chi concepts are not aimed at the hand.

 

[windwalker099]

Talks about the training of Wu style taiji..
Groups taiji practitioners into what it calls "circles"

The phenomenon of the push-hand circle

The Push Hands circle is a mixed bag of good and bad, full of chaos. It can be roughly divided into the following circles. The first is the "Ping" and "Kang" circle. This circle has the largest number of people. Many people in this circle do not practice Tai Chi.

They spontaneously organize themselves to play Push Hands corners and organize exchanges and competitions in other places. They are very active and have a lot of fun. What they play has nothing to do with the concept of Tai Chi.

The second circle is the "Talk Hands" circle.

Most of the "Talk Hands" are older. They are knowledgeable and can quote classics and talk eloquently. They can use the Taoist Book of Changes to explain a simple mechanical concept from Yin and Yang Bagua to the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic of Traditional Chinese Medicine, from acupuncture points to the emptiness of Buddhism.

The third is the magical “Lingkong Jin” hitting circle.

They use spirit, intention, and qi to hit people, and can also fight against multiple people alone, using the “Lingkong Jin” of spirit, intention, and qi to knock down multiple people. They only play with their own disciples and do not fight with strangers (so they cannot withstand double-blind tests).

interesting take...on 凌空勁 Volley jin

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[Wing Woo Gar]

you are trolling

Why, clutch my pearls! I would not, sir!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Talks about the training of Wu style taiji..
Groups taiji practitioners into what it calls "circles"

The phenomenon of the push-hand circle





The second circle is the "Talk Hands" circle.



The third is the magical “Lingkong Jin” hitting circle.




interesting take...on 凌空勁 Volley jin

​

Do you believe Volley Jin can work to produce knockdown on a resisting opponent? I don’t believe it, but would be willing let someone try it. I have seen some things and experienced some things I cannot explain but I am ever the skeptic until I can see it and experience it in several repeatable instances.

 

[windwalker099]

Do you believe Volley Jin can work to produce knockdown on a resisting opponent? I don’t believe it, but would be willing let someone try it. I have seen some things and experienced some things I cannot explain but I am ever the skeptic until I can see it and experience it in several repeatable instances.

I felt that in posting the Wu article outlining Taiji groups in circles, it would be remiss not to include it.

I do not agree with the author's conclusions, which are common among those who are not working on it or have not experienced it. For me, it's not a belief; it's an experience.

This is posted in response to your question, although it is not really the focus of this topic.

Not interested in saying much more about it on a thread not specifically focused on it.
.
visited this teacher, good skill

Master Lin A (Nian) Long
A public taiji teacher based in Taipei, Taiwan .
Most teacher's including my own are not very public about their work.

 

[Appledog]

interesting take...on 凌空勁 Volley jin

This thread is about push hands theory not your personal take on something that doesn't exist.

And yet here we are once again. I should have known this would happen once you started talking about the "good old days" again.

Talk about people "writing" without being able to do what they claim. I've seen your videos. You can't be using lin kong jin -- you're wearing gloves. I'm not an idiot.

 

[windwalker099]

This is posted in response to your question, although it is not really the focus of this topic.

Not interested in saying much more about it on a thread not specifically focused on it.

Guess you missed this.
You’re right

Not the topic of this thread

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Guess you missed this.
You’re right

Not the topic of this thread

Off topic is my specialty. Sorry to derail.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m sorry but I can’t see the video from where I am.
Can you maybe make a short description of the 4 PH patterns ?
Is one of them the “grasp birds tail” pattern ?

1. Static single PH.
2. Dynamic single PH.
3. Static double PH.
4. Dynamic double PH.

Mainly you use one hand to push on your opponent's wrist, use another hand to push on his elbow. Your opponent yields (and guide your force into the emptiness). Your opponent then pushes back to you. You then yield and ...

It's training, not competition.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From general MA point of view (not just from Taiji point of view), which MA skill is more important?

1. When your opponent pushes on your arm, you yield and guide his force into the emptiness.
2. Don't allow your opponent's arm to contact your arm.

IMO, 1 < 2.

I have tested this myself. In 15 minutes, my opponent's arm can't make contact on my arms. So, 2 is possible. Why 2 is more important? If your opponent's arms can't touch you, he can't throw you. 2 has great value in MA.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

From general MA point of view (not just from Taiji point of view), which MA skill is more important?

1. When your opponent pushes on your arm, you yield and guide his force into the emptiness.
2. Don't allow your opponent's arm to contact your arm.

IMO, 1 < 2.

I have tested this myself. In 15 minutes, my opponent's arm can't make contact on my arms. So, 2 is possible. Why 2 is more important? If your opponent's arms can't touch you, he can't throw you. 2 has great value in MA.

#1 is good to know if someone gets past #2. All have contextual value.