Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[windwalker099]

In these clips, more training besides push has been added in.

Different martial arts refer to their practices by different names. Using the term "push hands" automatically creates a frame of reference that might not be compatible with what you do, as shown by your continual attempts to change it.

Taiji guys (or any MA guys) should learn how to establish a bridge (arm contact) before learning sticky, yield, and follow.

The focus is different. When I work with people, most of the time is spent on getting them to drop their use of force.

One way of demonstrating what happens if one does not do this is through the practice of push hands, or as some lines of Taiji call it, rubbing hands.

This practice is used to develop and teach the "right touch" and is now often used to gauge the level of a person's practice. Just as the performance of movements is used to judge the quality of a person's training. This represents a departure from the historical past where these skills were noted but proven through actual fighting.

there things that one should know and understand before contact is made...
There are styles that bypass the use of the "bridge",
taiji "depending on line" is one of them

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Different martial arts refer to their practices by different names. Using the term "push hands" automatically creates a frame of reference that might not be compatible with what you do, as shown by your continual attempts to change it.




The focus is different. When I work with people, most of the time is spent on getting them to drop their use of force.

One way of demonstrating what happens if one does not do this is through the practice of push hands, or as some lines of Taiji call it, rubbing hands.

This practice is used to develop and teach the "right touch" and is now often used to gauge the level of a person's practice. Just as the performance of movements is used to judge the quality of a person's training. This represents a departure from the historical past where these skills were noted but proven through actual fighting.

there things that one should know and understand before contact is made...
There are styles that bypass the use of the "bridge",
taiji "depending on line" is one of them

Agree there are ways to skip bridge. Point is more that people should be taught in sequence. Foundation, Foundation, Foundation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are styles that bypass the use of the "bridge",
taiji "depending on line" is one of them

I'm not trying to criticize Taiji that I have learned when I was 7. I mainly want to enhance it. For example, if you have trained both Taiji and Chinese wrestling, how can you integrate both arts together?

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA system that you train?" Because to look at MA in general is different from to look at MA only from the Taiji point of view.

 

[windwalker099]

I have used the "switch hands" to set up throw successful many times in sparring. The 1st wrist grab is a fake move, The 2nd elbow grab is real. If the 1st fake move fail, it won't affect my 2nd move because I'm not committed on the 1st move any way.

He is extending his hand out, not punching.
The other persons, L- hand is low.
What you show is a training clip

the timing, reaction would not be the same...
with someone of equal or greater skill.
With the intent of hitting .

Or do you feel it is ?

Our experience's are different.
Your experience is yours, mine is mine.

Is one better then the other ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the timing, reaction would not be the same...
with someone of equal or greater skill.
With the intent of hitting .

I only use "switch hands" when my opponent is on guard, and I attack first. I will never use this when fists are already flying.

 

[windwalker099]

I mainly want to enhance it. For example, if you have trained both Taiji and Chinese wrestling, how can you integrate both arts together?

I tried to integrate Tibetan White Crane with Taiji, but after a while, found I couldn't do it.
In attempting to do so, it cleared up some fundamental differences for me, clarifying the meaning of internal and external approaches.

"Tsang Lu
蒼鷺太極
open close, empty full, swallow, spit, move with awareness

基於開合、虛實與吞吐 的知覺運動
Developed in Hsinchu, TW.

Tsang Lu combines Taiji theory and movement, with the unique foot work and long arm of Tibetan White Crane , developing and focusing on functional usage based awareness."


While I can understand what you are trying to do, my own feelings on it based on an understanding reached through my own attempts, giving me a deeper understanding of my practice.

It won't work. "that is" depending on what one is looking for..

But do wish you luck in the process.

This is why I like to ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA system that you train?" Because to look at MA in general is different from look at MA only from the Taiji point of view.

My introduction to Taiji was to deepen my understanding of CMA. In doing so, I met three teachers.
After meeting my last Taiji teacher, I dropped everything else to follow and understand his method.

Should mention I have interacted with people who studied
Shuai jiao. a student and his teacher. What they tried to do didn't work at the time.
The teacher mentioned he'd have to use his "vibration force". but didn't want to hurt me.

Yep maybe,,ya never know, we met and left as friends, bothers of CMA..

 

[Same Trick]

I only use "switch hands" when my opponent is on guard, and I attack first. I will never use this when fists are already flying.

Yes, back when i was intokarate, I done this move on regular basis during sparring…but for some reason a little more difficult to pull of during competition.
Snapped a finger one time, it got caught in the opponents gi jacket sleeve, scored an ippon(winning point)anyway

 

[windwalker099]

Agree there are ways to skip bridge. Point is more that people should be taught in sequence. Foundation, Foundation, Foundation.

While this true.
It depends on the focus of the training.
To expect all training to align with ones own focus seems kinda strange to me..

The foundation that one uses depends on what the focus of the training is trying to develop.

 

[windwalker099]

Yes, back when i was intokarate, I done this move on regular basis during sparring…but for some reason a little more difficult to pull of during competition.
Snapped a finger one time, it got caught in the opponents gi jacket sleeve, scored an ippon(winning point)anyway

. reminds me of getting all my fingers jammed using Tibetan white crane , with a movement called "diving hand "
sparring a TKD guy trying to kick my head off, back in the day....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends on the focus of the training.

But the combat focus should be the same for everybody. The day when you fight, your opponent may not be a Taiji guy.

 

[windwalker099]

But the combat focus should be the same for everybody. The day when you fight, your opponent may not be a Taiji guy.

is it ?

Yes but the opponent will be meeting a taiji guy.
Should he be worried



Some people never fight.
Others carry guns .

This teacher a direct student of Master Zhang Manqing

T’ai Chi classes at IRI emphasize development of the ch’i with respect to Traditional Chinese Medicine. The purpose and goals of the school are to teach and develop the art of T’ai Chi Ch’uan as a tool for improving one’s health. Through the understanding of one’s ch’i energy, one may embrace more fully life’s treasures of harmony and happiness.

He is very successful and has been teaching for over 50 years.


When I grew up, there were what we called fighting styles, known for their effectiveness in combat, depending on the teacher. I never considered Taiji to be useful because it relied on principles that most fighters try to avoid or prevent others from using.

Needless to say, my perspectives have changed over the years with more experience and understanding. Everyone has their focus. For those seeking Taiji for whatever reason out side of my own focus, I always suggest they find teachers more suited to what they are looking for.

Small story:

This happened in Oklahoma. I was invited to teach Taiji to seniors at a center. I started off with 25 people. By the end of the first week, only 10 remained. By the end of the second week, there were five people left. By the end of the third week, no one showed up.

The teacher and student should match, which is why I always ask those I work with to be clear about what they are seeking.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some people never fight.
Others carry guns .
develop the art of T’ai Chi Ch’uan as a tool for improving one’s health.

In most part of the world, you can't get a gun.

If you train Taiji for health, you don't need to train push hand.

 

[windwalker099]

Some people never fight.
Others carry guns .
develop the art of T’ai Chi Ch’uan as a tool for improving one’s health.

This is not clear.
please make sure they are my words.

If you train Taiji for health, you don't need to train push hand.

Are you speaking as a representative of "taiji" or as yourself ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you speaking as a representative of "taiji" or as yourself ?

Why should one train PH if he is only interested in health? What will be your answer on this?

If health is the only thing that I'm interested, I won't train

- PH.
- iron palm.
- kick/punch on heavy bag.
- ...

 

[windwalker099]

Why should one train PH if he is only interested in health? What will be your answer on this?

To understand how to practice the solo practice, check to see if it is correct.

Some of this has been addressed by past masters.

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi
Chuan

When practicing Taijiquan, one must first determine the correct purpose based on their age, physical condition, personality, environment, and the development of their practice. Older people practice for longevity and health, while younger people aim for martial skills. Those with chronic illnesses practice for therapeutic purposes, which also falls under the category of health cultivation. Once their illnesses are cured, some may change their goals to pursue martial skills.

---

 

[Same Trick]

TJQ push-hands that’s based on the “grasp bird’s tail” sequence is most probably a “recent”invention and came about with the Yang family, maybe the Banhou/Jianhou generation, and Chen family adapted it from encounter it in Beijing..
However two hand/arms push/sticky/grinding have probably been around much longer, evolved out of wrestling.
One hand push-hand is probably older too, it’s found in variety of different styles, even in Okinawan Karate, it might have evolved from pugilistic dueling where combatants was to approach each other to first touch hands as a signal that the fight was to begin.

 

[Appledog]

TJQ push-hands that’s based on the “grasp bird’s tail” sequence is most probably a “recent”invention and came about with the Yang family, maybe the Banhou/Jianhou generation, and Chen family adapted it from encounter it in Beijing..
However two hand/arms push/sticky/grinding have probably been around much longer, evolved out of wrestling.
One hand push-hand is probably older too, it’s found in variety of different styles, even in Okinawan Karate, it might have evolved from pugilistic dueling where combatants was to approach each other to first touch hands as a signal that the fight was to begin.

No, the GBT sequence was created after the push hands sequence was created.

In fact, there are dozens of kinds of push hands in Chen style which don't exist in Yang style. I don't think it is a problem, Yang style push hands is also very interesting and they have preserved some things that are skipped over, somewhat, in Chen style. I like to see both perspectives.

If I was super interested in push hands I would also go into Wu style a bit. They have a fascinating library of push hands forms and they teach it very well. Wu style is well-preserved, moreso than Yang and most Chen. These days Chen is becoming a little bit like Yang in terms of popularity and I think it's hurting the style a bit.

 

[Same Trick]

No, the GBT sequence was created after the push hands sequence was created.

In fact, there are dozens of kinds of push hands in Chen style which don't exist in Yang style. I don't think it is a problem, Yang style push hands is also very interesting and they have preserved some things that are skipped over, somewhat, in Chen style. I like to see both perspectives.

If I was super interested in push hands I would also go into Wu style a bit. They have a fascinating library of push hands forms and they teach it very well. Wu style is well-preserved, moreso than Yang and most Chen. These days Chen is becoming a little bit like Yang in terms of popularity and I think it's hurting the style a bit.

Source on that that the taolu GBT evolved from a GPT push-hand set ?



I personally don’t like PH practice, especially the GBT way of doing it. I’m content with single hand, free hand PH and Da-lu if I ever do such exercises. I prefer things finished/ settled with first touch kind of way.

So to collect a whole array of PH sets is not for me.



If Chen style TJQ as you say has a vast collection of PH’s sets it seem you picked the right style to practice, but was it the GBT they borrowed from Yang style that made you figure you reach your primordial state of being ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If Chen style TJQ as you say has a vast collection of PH’s sets

In Chang style Taiji, we have 4 different ways of PH training.

 

[Same Trick]

In Chang style Taiji, we have 4 different ways of PH training.

I’m sorry but I can’t see the video from where I am.
Can you maybe make a short description of the 4 PH patterns ?
Is one of them the “grasp birds tail” pattern ?