Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[Wing Woo Gar]

I like wrist grabbers. That might be my favorite thing to counter.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Excerpt from "Notes on the Tai Chi Training Method called Ti Fang" by Stephen Goodson:

In the Ti Fang exercise, your initial contact with your partner is at 4oz of pressure. You should have a good feel for this amount of pressure from the preliminary learning of the Push Hands choreography. Suffice to say that it's just about 4oz. Once this contact is established you then start to gently push. When the pressure builds to just more than 4oz [say 5oz] they will reflexively raise slightly, you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect], and then you accelerate them [pushing through their center]. The withdraw "severs the root" of your opponent so that when you accelerate them away you meet little/no resistance. If you get it right both his feet will leave the ground as he hops away...

I call this shake the baby .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you have badly misunderstood the nature and goals of tai chi practice. It is too easy for you to criticize others. Why don't you post an answer by yourself?

- If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.
- When you try to break that wrist grab, your opponent already makes next move. You are always 1 step behind.

In MA training, it's so important not to let your opponent to establish a bridge (or grab on your wrist). But the Taiji PH training just doesn't put enough emphasize on it.

What's the answer for this? I think the Taiji PH training should start from 2 person without arm contact. If you try to use your arm to contact your opponent's arm, or if you try to grab his wrist, he can rotate his arm the same direction as your arm does to avoid contact. The PH only starts when your arm and your opponent's arm can make contact.

The PRO of this extra adding training:

- will not affect the rest of your PH training.
- can develop your skill not to allow your opponent to contact your arm, or grab on your wrist.
- can make you understand that with arm contact or without arm contact is under your control.

The Taiji PH training then can be more combat realistic. Your Taiji PH training will have more combat value.

IMO, the Taiji PH training may start from a distance (like the following clip). When your opponent moves his arms the same direction as your arms is moving, the arm contact will not happen. But if you suddenly reverse your arms moving direction (and if your opponent doesn't change his arm moving direction fast enough), the arms will make contact. This experience is so important in some MA applications such as to

- use hook punch to counter a hook punch (rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's hook punch).
- change wrist grab into comb hair (reverse arm rotation direction) to obtain a clinch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like wrist grabbers. That might be my favorite thing to counter.

Sometime your opponent's wrist grab can be just a set up. When you try to counter it, he already makes next move.

- The right wrist grab,
- left elbow grab, and
- right punch,

can be done within 1/4 second. To pay any attention on the 1st wrist grabbing can be waste of effort.

 

[Teapot]

- If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.
- When you try to break that wrist grab, your opponent already makes next move. You are always 1 step behind.

In MA training, it's so important not to let your opponent to establish a bridge (or grab on your wrist). But the Taiji PH training just doesn't put enough emphasize on it.

What's the answer for this? I think the Taiji PH training should start from 2 person without arm contact. If you try to use your arm to contact your opponent's arm, or if you try to grab his wrist, he can rotate his arm the same direction as your arm does to avoid contact. The PH only starts when your arm and your opponent's arm can make contact.

The PRO of this extra adding training:

- will not affect the rest of your PH training.
- can develop your skill not to allow your opponent to contact your arm, or grab on your wrist.
- can make you understand that with arm contact or without arm contact is under your control.

The Taiji PH training then can be more combat realistic. Your Taiji PH training will have more combat value.

IMO, the Taiji PH training may start from a distance (like the following clip). When your opponent moves his arms the same direction as your arms is moving, the arm contact will not happen. But if you suddenly reverse your arms moving direction (and if your opponent doesn't change his arm moving direction fast enough), the arms will make contact. This experience is so important in some MA applications such as to

- use hook punch to counter a hook punch (rotate your arm the same direction as your opponent's hook punch).
- change wrist grab into comb hair (reverse arm rotation direction) to obtain a clinch.

There's already a term for non-contact: Sanshou.

Originally, Taijiquan had both Tuishou and Sanshou. Tuishou is not the sum-total of Taijiquan.

But really, the problem is just that most Taiji practitioners suck at Tuishou.

If you are saying "If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.", then I'd imagine you know what I mean when I say that too many Push Hand practitioners place way too much emphasis on trying to push someone far away.

It's a very low-hanging fruit.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sometime your opponent's wrist grab can be just a set up. When you try to counter it, he already makes next move.

- The right wrist grab,
- left elbow grab, and
- right punch,

can be done within 1/4 second. To pay any attention on the 1st wrist grabbing can be waste of effort.

I don’t expect them to keep it. They grab me, their mind is there, I am already somewhere else.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There's already a term for non-contact: Sanshou.

Originally, Taijiquan had both Tuishou and Sanshou. Tuishou is not the sum-total of Taijiquan.

But really, the problem is just that most Taiji practitioners suck at Tuishou.

If you are saying "If your opponent grabs on your wrist, you can't push him away because your body and his body are connected as one unit.", then I'd imagine you know what I mean when I say that too many Push Hand practitioners place way too much emphasis on trying to push someone far away.

It's a very low-hanging fruit.

I agree, the majority do not represent the whole.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Push hands is taught too early IMO. My teacher made us learn just one tiny piece at a time. We never even saw any tuishou in the first couple years.

 

[Appledog]

Push hands is taught too early IMO. My teacher made us learn just one tiny piece at a time. We never even saw any tuishou in the first couple years.

Yes, you are right. Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.

Here is a quiz for fun! One, which Taijiquan moves are representative of the following? Two, which Shaolin theory was amalgamated into Taijiquan theory in order to make the transition? Three, do you notice anything interesting about the names, maybe something that seems familiar? Why do you think the names changed?

1. Subdue the Dragon

2. Twisting the strand of Silk

3. Deftly Sewing the Needle