Tai Chi and Weightlifting.

[Appledog]

Ma Hong has an interesting theory on weightlifting.

Essentially, "Qi is difficult to develop because it takes time and the feelings we need to focus our attention are tenuous at first. Breathing techniques that stretch the surface of the skin and the involuntary muscle layers are the usual start of the progression. Many traditional Chinese martial arts talk about “100 Days” of breathing exercises to develop the qi to a usable status." (a quote by Mike Sigman).

Question: WHAT are the feelings we need to focus on? There are all kinds of such forces, that you must learn how to feel, or seek to feel. For everyone it can be different. The point is that such forces are very difficult to see (they are very small), very difficult to hear (they are very far away) and very difficult to feel (they are very weak). If you turn on a boombox (the yi sends massive amounts of electrical nerve signals to an area) then it obscures anything else, and besides, this is a willful expression and not a "submission to nature", i.e. the dao te ching asks us to submit to nature instead of imposing our will. Because, in fact, you cannot control them. You must learn to relax to allow them to appear from out of the background noise.

It's like a wooden puzzle box, but made of thin paper -- if you load it with weights or try to force it open, you will damage it.

When the time is right however, you can try it. You should always ask your teacher about it to make sure you are ready.

 

[Same Trick]

Taijiquan and weightlifting both make use of gravity for refined development, out from the force of gravity both work with the most fundamental directions of up and down, forward and back, side to side.
All sides harmoniously balanced Qi(energy)will flow smoothly
The key is not to focus on Qi but rather to staying tune with the graspable in our daily life, no need try contemplate on it more complex than so

 

[Xue Sheng]

One of the 19th generation Chen, don't remember if it was Xiaowang, Xiaoxing or Zhenglei said weightlifting is ok as long as it is muscle groups, to train connections. But isolations were not good for taijiquan.

 

[O'Malley]

I'll talk from my understanding of how Qi works within the body. Talking about "energy" can be useful to help visualize how to train your body but this kind of talk can also get mixed up with metaphysics and superstition (for example, I don't believe in "shooting Qi at people"). In the end, it should boil down to (complex) biomechanics and physics.

The physical abilities commonly associated with Qi in Asian martial arts (e.g. "jin", immovable body, soft power, ghost touch, sticky touch, etc.) mostly come from an adept's ability to stretch his connective tissue in all (mostly six) directions, which creates tension all over the body, which disperses incoming forces and builds potential energy that assists with movement. This tension is felt along major myofascial lines, which roughly correspond to the meridians of traditional Chinese medicine, and is what one tends to identify with "Qi". I'm leaving out the whole discussion about dantian rotation because I'm not sure I understand it enough.

Weightlifting makes the body stronger, including by reinforcing muscles, tendons, etc. and, as a general rule, physical strength and athleticism are important in martial arts, even in internal styles. So building your physical strength should help your Tai Chi in that regard.

However, there are caveats. The first one is that the nature of weightlifting can work against the extension that underpins Qi: in weightlifting, you train by contracting your muscles against the resistance provided by the weight of a heavy object (e.g. a barbell). This teaches your body to contract, instead of extend. It is the opposite of the "relaxation" (song) and extension (achieved through yi/intent) that you seek when practicing internal arts.

The other major hurdle is that extending in six directions requires hard work on a neurological level. Humans have an innate reflex of pushing in one direction to move an object or resist an incoming force (by pushing back) and you have to rewire that way of moving so that instead you extend uniformly in six directions. However, by doing weightlifting, you actively train your body to push against the weight of the object you lift (one direction).

So it's important to build physical strength, but if one practices internal arts one must also understand how to mitigate the incompatibilities between building strength and building Qi.

I'll conclude with this video by Hai Yang, an outstanding resource for English speakers on internal arts:

 

[windwalker099]

I'll talk from my understanding of how Qi works within the body. Talking about "energy" can be useful to help visualize how to train your body but this kind of talk can also get mixed up with metaphysics and superstition (for example, I don't believe in "shooting Qi at people"). In the end, it should boil down to (complex) biomechanics and physics.

Why should it boil down to complex bio mechanics and physics?

Agree

In the end, it does boil down to ones experiences and ability...
For some it's not a belief, it's a reality they have felt and experienced.


In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and classical internal martial arts, jin (勁) is traditionally understood as the manifestation of Qi (氣), guided by Yi (意, intention), and rooted in correct structure, breath, and the principle of song (鬆)—a state of relaxed activation. This view emphasizes that true internal power arises from a harmonious integration of mind, energy, and body, rather than being generated solely through physical mechanisms.

Some modern interpretations attempt to explain Qi as a product of fascial tension and coordinated body mechanics. For example:

"The so-called Qi spreads throughout the body and moves the body with Qi may be due to the coordinated operation of the fascia network spread throughout the body. The ancients called it 'Qi', which is not a mysterious idea, but they just couldn't state the specific facts."

While such biomechanical perspectives can offer useful insights, they may overlook the deeper energetic, intentional, and experiential dimensions emphasized in traditional practice.

This is not to say that modern views are entirely incorrect—only that without direct experience and cultivation, such understandings often remain intellectual or speculative. Ultimately, the theories we adopt tend to reflect the depth—or limits—of our own embodied practice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'll talk from my understanding of how Qi works within the body. Talking about "energy" can be useful to help visualize how to train your body but this kind of talk can also get mixed up with metaphysics and superstition (for example, I don't believe in "shooting Qi at people"). In the end, it should boil down to (complex) biomechanics and physics.

The physical abilities commonly associated with Qi in Asian martial arts (e.g. "jin", immovable body, soft power, ghost touch, sticky touch, etc.) mostly come from an adept's ability to stretch his connective tissue in all (mostly six) directions, which creates tension all over the body, which disperses incoming forces and builds potential energy that assists with movement. This tension is felt along major myofascial lines, which roughly correspond to the meridians of traditional Chinese medicine, and is what one tends to identify with "Qi". I'm leaving out the whole discussion about dantian rotation because I'm not sure I understand it enough.

Weightlifting makes the body stronger, including by reinforcing muscles, tendons, etc. and, as a general rule, physical strength and athleticism are important in martial arts, even in internal styles. So building your physical strength should help your Tai Chi in that regard.

However, there are caveats. The first one is that the nature of weightlifting can work against the extension that underpins Qi: in weightlifting, you train by contracting your muscles against the resistance provided by the weight of a heavy object (e.g. a barbell). This teaches your body to contract, instead of extend. It is the opposite of the "relaxation" (song) and extension (achieved through yi/intent) that you seek when practicing internal arts.

The other major hurdle is that extending in six directions requires hard work on a neurological level. Humans have an innate reflex of pushing in one direction to move an object or resist an incoming force (by pushing back) and you have to rewire that way of moving so that instead you extend uniformly in six directions. However, by doing weightlifting, you actively train your body to push against the weight of the object you lift (one direction).

So it's important to build physical strength, but if one practices internal arts one must also understand how to mitigate the incompatibilities between building strength and building Qi.

I'll conclude with this video by Hai Yang, an outstanding resource for English speakers on internal arts:

Hai Yang...the ONLY reason I wish I lived in Montreal.... I would have trained with him...Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan

 

[Appledog]

While such biomechanical perspectives can offer useful insights, they may overlook the deeper energetic, intentional, and experiential dimensions emphasized in traditional practice.

What are some examples of the deeper energetic, intentional and experiential dimensions emphasized in traditional practice?

 

[O'Malley]

Why should it boil down to complex bio mechanics and physics?

Agree

In the end, it does boil down to ones experiences and ability...
For some it's not a belief, it's a reality they have felt and experienced.


In Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and classical internal martial arts, jin (勁) is traditionally understood as the manifestation of Qi (氣), guided by Yi (意, intention), and rooted in correct structure, breath, and the principle of song (鬆)—a state of relaxed activation. This view emphasizes that true internal power arises from a harmonious integration of mind, energy, and body, rather than being generated solely through physical mechanisms.

Some modern interpretations attempt to explain Qi as a product of fascial tension and coordinated body mechanics. For example:



While such biomechanical perspectives can offer useful insights, they may overlook the deeper energetic, intentional, and experiential dimensions emphasized in traditional practice.

This is not to say that modern views are entirely incorrect—only that without direct experience and cultivation, such understandings often remain intellectual or speculative. Ultimately, the theories we adopt tend to reflect the depth—or limits—of our own embodied practice.

Of course, the words can only go so far (because all the forces and factors involved are just insanely complex). That's why even people who understand Qi as a phyiscal phenomenon will use the yi/intent visualisations. I was just noting that there are pitfalls to the Qi talk: it can devolve into imaginary martial arts, where people convince themselves of forces that do not exist in reality, leading to stuff like no touch throws.

It can also make it hard to communicate as the concepts are vague, and the association with bullshido and mysticism hampers exchanges with martial artists that haven't experienced it. I've felt and witnessed unbelievable martial arts displays, but I'll still call ******** on stuff like "dodging bullets by seeing their Qi in advance".

 

[Same Trick]

“Qi is difficult to develop”

“100 Days” of breathing exercises to develop the qi to a usable status."

??

We all got the so called “Qi” , the wast majority got it so good it’s in a usable status already before taking up any weightlifting or Taiji, so usable that they/we don’t have to do any weightlifting or Taiji.

 

[windwalker099]

I was just noting that there are pitfalls to the Qi talk: it can devolve into imaginary martial arts, where people convince themselves of forces that do not exist in reality, leading to stuff like no touch throws.

It can also make it hard to communicate as the concepts are vague, and the association with bullshido and mysticism hampers exchanges with martial artists that haven't experienced it.

Yes, it can make it hard to communicate....

Volley Jin (凌空勁), or “no-touch” , may seem far-fetched, but it aligns closely with Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) principles: Qi guided by Yi (intention), supported by breath, structure, and song (relaxed activation). It's not mysticism, but refined awareness, sensitivity, and internal connection—subtle skills that, with deep practice, can affect others even without direct contact.

In TCM, Qi is a functional, trainable phenomenon—not just metaphor. Selectively dismissing certain expressions of Qi while accepting others often reveals more about the limits of personal experience than about the reality being judged.

Defining something by a lack of experience only affirms that view among others who share the same limitation. Likewise, demos and videos that don’t match one’s own frame of reference are frequently dismissed as fake or exaggerated—making sharing them less useful for meaningful discussion.

For those who’ve trained deeply and felt it, there’s no debate—it’s just part of the work.

“知之為知之，不知為不知” – To know what you know, and to admit what you don’t—that is true knowledge.

some might find this useful

Shaolin Nei Jing Yi Zhi ChanStanding Meditation Method

as a way of developing and exploring Qi

 

[O'Malley]

Yes, it can make it hard to communicate....

Volley Jin (凌空勁), or “no-touch” , may seem far-fetched, but it aligns closely with Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) principles: Qi guided by Yi (intention), supported by breath, structure, and song (relaxed activation). It's not mysticism, but refined awareness, sensitivity, and internal connection—subtle skills that, with deep practice, can affect others even without direct contact.

In TCM, Qi is a functional, trainable phenomenon—not just metaphor. Selectively dismissing certain expressions of Qi while accepting others often reveals more about the limits of personal experience than about the reality being judged.

Defining something by a lack of experience only affirms that view among others who share the same limitation. Likewise, demos and videos that don’t match one’s own frame of reference are frequently dismissed as fake or exaggerated—making sharing them less useful for meaningful discussion.

For those who’ve trained deeply and felt it, there’s no debate—it’s just part of the work.

“知之為知之，不知為不知” – To know what you know, and to admit what you don’t—that is true knowledge.

some might find this useful

Shaolin Nei Jing Yi Zhi ChanStanding Meditation Method

as a way of developing and exploring Qi

Happy to keep an open mind, as long as it doesn't turn into blind faith.

Qi as a set of physical adjustments within the body is consistent with the laws of physics. Qi as energy leaving the body and affecting another person, for example, is not. Thus I'll take any claims of the latter with a huge grain of salt.

Again, my experience is limited but I've touched hands and exchanged with a couple of very skilled folks. They, in turn, have touched hands with top dogs in internal martial arts including the Chens (Xiaowang, Bing, Yu, etc.), Minoru Akuzawa, Sam FS Chin, Mike Sigman, Dan Harden (with whom I also have direct experience), Don Angier, Howard Popkin, etc.

As far as I know, none of them claim supernatural abilities, or to be able to drop people without touching them. I can imagine situations where the other person's balance is broken at a distance by a feint, a rhythm change or a misperception of support/resistance ("ankle breaks" are a thing in basketball) but no touch throws are most likely BS (or the product of the throwee's imagination).

Unless I'm missing something about Volley Jin, of course. Happy to hear if you can share details.

 

[windwalker099]

Happy to keep an open mind, as long as it doesn't turn into blind faith.

Qi as a set of physical adjustments within the body is consistent with the laws of physics. Qi as energy leaving the body and affecting another person, for example, is not. Thus I'll take any claims of the latter with a huge grain of salt.

Traditional Chinese Medicine wasn’t built on the laws of physics—it’s based on a completely different framework for understanding the body, energy, and health.

When someone says, “Qi can’t be real because it doesn’t follow physics,” they’re kind of missing the point. That’s like saying acupuncture can’t work because it doesn’t fit into a western medicine world view —it’s just using the wrong lens to evaluate it.

Instead of trying to cram it into a model that doesn’t apply, a better question might be: Does it work within its own system? And for people who’ve studied TCM or internal martial arts deeply, the answer is often, “Yes—it’s repeatable, it’s experiential, and it makes sense within that context.”

Not everything has to be proven by one worldview to have value in another.

Again, my experience is limited but I've touched hands and exchanged with a couple of very skilled folks. They, in turn, have touched hands with top dogs in internal martial arts including the Chens (Xiaowang, Bing, Yu, etc.), Minoru Akuzawa, Sam FS Chin, Mike Sigman, Dan Harden (with whom I also have direct experience), Don Angier, Howard Popkin, etc.

As far as I know, none of them claim supernatural abilities, or to be able to drop people without touching them. I can imagine situations where the other person's balance is broken at a distance by a feint, a rhythm change or a misperception of support/resistance ("ankle breaks" are a thing in basketball) but no touch throws are most likely BS (or the product of the throwee's imagination).

Unless I'm missing something about Volley Jin, of course. Happy to hear if you can share details.

That’s fair—your experience includes some serious names, and that gives your perspective weight. Still, the absence of a particular experience, even in high-level circles, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist—just that it hasn’t been part of your journey (yet).

Saying something like “no-touch throws are just imagination” often comes from trying to explain unfamiliar things using comfortable frameworks—psychology, deception, biomechanics. But there’s a blind spot in that approach: it assumes the limits of your experience are the limits of what’s possible.

Speaking from experience, this kind of work can be very real—and sometimes uncomfortable. It can even make you feel sick afterward, which isn’t often talked about, but is well known among those who’ve felt it.

I’ve trained with people who don’t promote anything flashy, yet they can do things that defy conventional explanation. And they rarely talk openly about it—because they know how it’s usually received.

At the end of the day, the real divide isn’t about belief—it’s about experience. If you haven’t gone far enough into that territory, it’s natural to doubt. But maybe the experience isn’t fake—maybe it just hasn’t been yours (yet).

The best practitioners aren’t always the most visible.

That said, it feels like this thread’s edging into “prove your experience” territory—which I’m not into, and won’t entertain here. My own exploration spans 20+ years, including time training in China and Taiwan.

An interesting topic , hope more folks feel encouraged to share their perspectives.

As for the thread title: whether weightlifting helps with Taiji depends a lot on the line being trained— for most internal approaches, it’s generally not helpful the practice alone can be quite demanding...if one really meets the requirements of the practice

 

[Appledog]

“Qi is difficult to develop”

“100 Days” of breathing exercises to develop the qi to a usable status."

??

We all got the so called “Qi” , the wast majority got it so good it’s in a usable status already before taking up any weightlifting or Taiji, so usable that they/we don’t have to do any weightlifting or Taiji.

100 days is a long time. Imagine having 100 days to thread a needle, but it was difficult enough that you needed the time...

Fair question, if it "only" takes 100 days, why do you think there is such confusion over how to use it?

 

[Same Trick]

100 days is a long time. Imagine having 100 days to thread a needle, but it was difficult enough that you needed the time...

Fair question, if it "only" takes 100 days, why do you think there is such confusion over how to use it?

You’re twisting.
A hundred days is nothing questionable, it’s the “Qi and making it usable”part that’s wrong.
I realize you quoted someone else on that, I don’t know who that guy is but he’s wrong if that’s the only thing he wrote, maybe a bigger context is missing in your quote ?
100 days seem to stem from the old tradition belief that if a newborn baby manage through its first one hundred days it’s a sign of a strong child with health for its future, there’s a specific celebration festivity here in China for this.
Otherwise, it’s probably an inherent normative for us all that it would take about a hundred days of diligent work/practice to get a sufficient skill in any new activity we have taken to us.
From day one our Qi is there perfectly usable, if not we couldn’t take that first step

 

[Appledog]

You’re twisting.
A hundred days is nothing questionable, it’s the “Qi and making it usable”part that’s wrong.
I realize you quoted someone else on that, I don’t know who that guy is but he’s wrong if that’s the only thing he wrote, maybe a bigger context is missing in your quote ?
100 days seem to stem from the old tradition belief that if a newborn baby manage through its first one hundred days it’s a sign of a strong child with health for its future, there’s a specific celebration festivity here in China for this.
Otherwise, it’s probably an inherent normative for us all that it would take about a hundred days of diligent work/practice to get a sufficient skill in any new activity we have taken to us.
From day one our Qi is there perfectly usable, if not we couldn’t take that first step

Why are you always such a negative nancy?

Here, I will answer the question for you. The reason why there is so much confusion about Qi qnd so forth is because people didn't even train properly for 100 days. People will come up with all sorts of excuses for this but in the end none of them can say "I actually went through the work properly, and it didn't work for me". Who can say that?

 

[Same Trick]

Why are you always such a negative nancy?

Here, I will answer the question for you. The reason why there is so much confusion about Qi qnd so forth is because people didn't even train properly for 100 days. People will come up with all sorts of excuses for this but in the end none of them can say "I actually went through the work properly, and it didn't work for me". Who can say that?

Why should I rather agree with something I don’t agree with?

But yes, talk of “Qi” and the mastery of it is nonsense filler for some real reality inability the talker of it have - Negative Nancy ain’t no fancy-pantsy

 

[Same Trick]

"I actually went through the work properly, and it didn't work for me".

Curious - What kind of “Qi mastery” ability did you have hope for/(was promised) to achieve after your 100 days course ?

 

[Appledog]

Curious - What kind of “Qi mastery” ability did you have hope for/(was promised) to achieve after your 100 days course ?

I have quite a few injuries including a broken collar bone, some surgeries and health issues (kidney stones etc) that all feel better now.