Tensho kata (internal form?)

[_Simon_]

Hi Simon,

I've trained a bit in one of the sub-styles of White Crane from whence this and Sanchin seem to have come.

The main thing that those crane and related southern kungfu styles do that is "internal" is Iron Body training and that is the main point of sanchin and what has morphed into ibuki breathing in Japanese arts.

White Crane and it's derivatives are not internal martial arts, the stance doesnt support IMA concepts, niether do the movements or strategy.

However the idea of cultivating and channelling chi is ubiquitous in Chinese ma. It's even present in Shotokan and you don't get more external than Shotokan.

If cultivation of chi is your interest then I'd find chi gong instructions and apply it to Tensho.

If it's Iron Body then you need to find an instructor to change your breathing and teach you the other exercises involved.

Thanks DaveB for the info, interesting stuff!

 

[_Simon_]

There may be more to it.

I’ve had people describe their qi “sloshing around” inside their body, feeling as if they are taking a shower on the inside. I’ve never felt anything even remotely like that, and I don’t know that i buy the notion of qi as something distinct like that, that can be specifically felt and directed and controlled. And yet I’ve seen these people do some eye-opening things in terms of generating power and stability with seemingly no effort.

So, what do I know? Not much, perhaps.

Nah fair enough! All perspectives are welcome, gives me food for thought

 

[Yokozuna514]

-When doing the koken/shotei sequences, my whole arms moved more freely, even though I know we were taught to keep the upper arm relatively still and to the side of your body while the lower arm moves. I exaggerated the arm movements just to get more of the whole body involved in the movements, and to understand feeling of expansion outwards and compressing in and down.

-Even my Sanchin dachi looked a bit wider than what I'd usually do, I think an attempt to sink my weight deeper to feel more grounded and rooted in my stance.


I'm more than happy to record the normal way we do it (at proper speed and with ibuki etc), would be cool seeing the comparison actually! I'll even wear my tattered, ripped Kyokushin gi

I would be interested to see this at the actual speed you normally practice because I thought the speed was fine (without the pauses in stance). Perhaps we do the arm movements during inhalation much quicker but this is the speed we do the exhalation sections.

We also use a wider sanchin dachi. I agree it makes you feel more 'grounded'. Some instructors do not like the knees so wide apart but if your 'hara' is in the right position, than your privates are still protected from a kick between your legs.

The hand positions for mae mawashi uke when you do your kata are at 12 and 6 but your bottom palm is facing your opponent and your fingers are pointing straight down. We have actually stopped doing it this way because of the tension that his built up in the arm to force the hand into this position. We now do it with a more natural hand position to put less strain on the wrist. It is really a small change in the overall picture but it is interesting to see the little differences in everyone's kata as they have learned it from their instructors/orgs. No judgement, just interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[_Simon_]

I would be interested to see this at the actual speed you normally practice because I thought the speed was fine (without the pauses in stance). Perhaps we do the arm movements during inhalation much quicker but this is the speed we do the exhalation sections.

We also use a wider sanchin dachi. I agree it makes you feel more 'grounded'. Some instructors do not like the knees so wide apart but if your 'hara' is in the right position, than your privates are still protected from a kick between your legs.

The hand positions for mae mawashi uke when you do your kata are at 12 and 6 but your bottom palm is facing your opponent and your fingers are pointing straight down. We have actually stopped doing it this way because of the tension that his built up in the arm to force the hand into this position. We now do it with a more natural hand position to put less strain on the wrist. It is really a small change in the overall picture but it is interesting to see the little differences in everyone's kata as they have learned it from their instructors/orgs. No judgement, just interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Ah that's interesting... thanks for that. Especially regarding mae mawashi uke, and that makes sense. We've always done it to try as best as possible to get the hand at a 90° angle (I guess to resemble gedan shotei uchi), which my wrist flexibility is not great at all so that's the best I can do haha. Will hopefully film it later today as am helping out in kid's class tonight so will have the gi on anyway haha

 

[_Simon_]

Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.

Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD

And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..

And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.

Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD

And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..

And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.

Nicely done Simon and thank you for sharing. Aside from a few hand angles, we are essentially doing the same kata. The only observation I would make is in your movement in sanchin dachi when you are moving backwards. There is a noticeable weight transference in the stance that has your head/body moving off centre while moving backwards. Generally, when we do the kata, we do not want the head and body to move sideways. We accomplish this by moving the feet faster so that the weigh transference is not noticeable.

Other than that I thought it was really good for a guy that was a 4th kyu and doesn’t practice it that often. How did you injure your ankle ?

 

[_Simon_]

Nicely done Simon and thank you for sharing. Aside from a few hand angles, we are essentially doing the same kata. The only observation I would make is in your movement in sanchin dachi when you are moving backwards. There is a noticeable weight transference in the stance that has your head/body moving off centre while moving backwards. Generally, when we do the kata, we do not want the head and body to move sideways. We accomplish this by moving the feet faster so that the weigh transference is not noticeable.

Other than that I thought it was really good for a guy that was a 4th kyu and doesn’t practice it that often. How did you injure your ankle ?

Thanks heaps . Ah yep I watched it back and I see what you mean about the body movement/rocking, will be conscious of that, cheers!

Injured my ankle in a tournament, 7 and a half weeks ago! Rolled it in a strange way. It got barely slightly better, but now has just gotten worse (I started a thread about it), got an x-ray yesterday and got an ultrasound in few weeks.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Thanks heaps . Ah yep I watched it back and I see what you mean about the body movement/rocking, will be conscious of that, cheers!

Injured my ankle in a tournament, 7 and a half weeks ago! Rolled it in a strange way. It got barely slightly better, but now has just gotten worse (I started a thread about it), got an x-ray yesterday and got an ultrasound in few weeks.

Yes, I remember now. Sorry to hear it has gotten worse instead of better. Glad to hear you have taken the next steps to rule out fractures and any issues stemming from deep soft tissue damage. Good luck and hope it isn't anything more serious that some rest will cure.

 

[JR 137]

Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.

Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD

And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..

And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.

That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.

Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury

What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.

 

[Yokozuna514]

That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.

Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury

What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.

Different orgs can have different requirements but as far as I know most of the major Kyokushin orgs classify Tensho as a 1st kyu requirement and Saiha as a Shodan requirement.

 

[JR 137]

Different orgs can have different requirements but as far as I know most of the major Kyokushin orgs classify Tensho as a 1st kyu requirement and Saiha as a Shodan requirement.

I’ve seen Saiha as a shodan kata often in Kyokushin. I wasn’t sure if Tensho was ikkyu or shodan in most of them.

I’ve seen Gekisai Sho and Seiunchin as nidan kata, both organizations I’ve been in had them at shodan. I’ve looked at the kata syllabus as bumped up one rank in most Kyokushin organizations.

 

[_Simon_]

Yes, I remember now. Sorry to hear it has gotten worse instead of better. Glad to hear you have taken the next steps to rule out fractures and any issues stemming from deep soft tissue damage. Good luck and hope it isn't anything more serious that some rest will cure.

Osu thanks so much, appreciate your kind thoughts.

 

[_Simon_]

That’s how we do the kata as well, except for an angle or two of the hands. It’s possible that your hand angles could be your own variation as well. If you were in my dojo, I don’t think anyone would really catch on to it the first few times you did it if they weren’t looking for specific differences. It’s just me being analytical here.

Very good performance. I won’t take points off for what I’m assuming is due to the ankle injury

What rank is Tensho typically taught at in Kyokushin? Both organizations I’ve been in (Seido and a local Kyokushin offshoot) did Tensho at 1st kyu. Tensho and Saiha/Saifa were the last 2 kata before shodan.

Osu thanks mate appreciate that. Yeah Tensho was needed for Shodan in our branch, also Saiha.

 

[_Simon_]

I’ve seen Saiha as a shodan kata often in Kyokushin. I wasn’t sure if Tensho was ikkyu or shodan in most of them.

I’ve seen Gekisai Sho and Seiunchin as nidan kata, both organizations I’ve been in had them at shodan. I’ve looked at the kata syllabus as bumped up one rank in most Kyokushin organizations.

Ah that's interesting, Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho were both required for 3th kyu in ours. Seienchin a 3rd dan requirement. And I guess each has its reasons for it being that way, but I find it fascinating when there's a drastic difference.

 

[JR 137]

Ah that's interesting, Gekisai Dai and Gekisai Sho were both required for 3th kyu in ours. Seienchin a 3rd dan requirement. And I guess each has its reasons for it being that way, but I find it fascinating when there's a drastic difference.

I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting.

I never liked that kata. I learned it at shodan and thought it didn’t feel like a black belt kata. I though Saiha felt far more like a black belt kata than Gekisai Sho.

And the history of Gekisai Sho is all wrong IMO. People cut and paste Hanshi Steve Arneill’s book that says it was Chojun Miyagi’s kata. No idea where he got that information from, but IMO it’s Oyama’s kata, not Miyagi’s.

All the sources say “Dai” and “Sho” are used in place of numbering them. Goju Ryu has Gekisai Dai ichi and ni. People say Sho is ni, but it’s not even close. No Goju school does anything that resembles Gekisai Sho; it’s only in Kyokushin and offshoots. If it was Miyagi’s kata, at least one Goju lineage would do it. Oyama never studied under Miyagi that I know of. He studied under Yamaguchi and So Nei Chu. Goju Kai (Yamaguchi’s lineage) doesn’t do it. The only one possible is So. I don’t think he’s got a lineage still active, so it could be his, but I doubt it.

Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.

 

[_Simon_]

I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting.

I never liked that kata. I learned it at shodan and thought it didn’t feel like a black belt kata. I though Saiha felt far more like a black belt kata than Gekisai Sho.

And the history of Gekisai Sho is all wrong IMO. People cut and paste Hanshi Steve Arneill’s book that says it was Chojun Miyagi’s kata. No idea where he got that information from, but IMO it’s Oyama’s kata, not Miyagi’s.

All the sources say “Dai” and “Sho” are used in place of numbering them. Goju Ryu has Gekisai Dai ichi and ni. People say Sho is ni, but it’s not even close. No Goju school does anything that resembles Gekisai Sho; it’s only in Kyokushin and offshoots. If it was Miyagi’s kata, at least one Goju lineage would do it. Oyama never studied under Miyagi that I know of. He studied under Yamaguchi and So Nei Chu. Goju Kai (Yamaguchi’s lineage) doesn’t do it. The only one possible is So. I don’t think he’s got a lineage still active, so it could be his, but I doubt it.

Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.

Yeah it doesn't make sense that Gekisai Sho is a black belt kata... I actually don't mind it. Probably prefer Gekisai Dai. LOVE the end with the double punch sequence, feels so powerful haha.

And yeah it doesn't resemble Gekisai Dai Ni at all! It is a confusing kata in terms of history..

The name also doesn't make sense. It looks as though Sho is an expanded version of Dai, yet Dai means large/larger and Sho is small/smaller, so I don't get it haha.

And don't apologize, I love a good sidetracking haha.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I’ve never heard of Gekisai Sho being a kyu kata before. That’s interesting.

Yeah it doesn't make sense that Gekisai Sho is a black belt kata.

I learned Gekisai Dai and Sho when I was in the kyu ranks but it was not a requirement until Shodan. I have heard many different theories on these katas but I have yet to find one that makes complete sense to me. I enjoy doing both katas. They both have a lot too them that I am just scratching the surface on.

Just a thought. Sorry to sidetrack. A lot of people are adamant about it being Miyagi’s kata because Hanshi Arneill said so. It’s practically impossible to discredit Arneill, but he could’ve been wrong once, right? He’s human too.

Amazing man and unbelievable karateka. Are you sure he's human ?

 

[JR 137]

I learned Gekisai Dai and Sho when I was in the kyu ranks but it was not a requirement until Shodan. I have heard many different theories on these katas but I have yet to find one that makes complete sense to me. I enjoy doing both katas. They both have a lot too them that I am just scratching the surface on.

Amazing man and unbelievable karateka. Are you sure he's human ?

Gekisai Dai is Chojun Miyagi and Soshin Nagamine’s kata. I don’t think there’s any debate on that. It’s very well documented.

Gekisai Sho is whatever the practitioner thinks it is I don’t outright dislike it; if it was a 2nd or 1st kyu kata, I’d appreciate it more.

And yeah, I was getting technical regarding Hanshi Arneill. I guess technically he’s human. Compared to everyone else, not so much

 

[TSDTexan]

Gekisai Dai is Chojun Miyagi and Soshin Nagamine’s kata. I don’t think there’s any debate on that. It’s very well documented.

Gekisai Sho is whatever the practitioner thinks it is I don’t outright dislike it; if it was a 2nd or 1st kyu kata, I’d appreciate it more.

And yeah, I was getting technical regarding Hanshi Arneill. I guess technically he’s human. Compared to everyone else, not so much

These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.

The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.

The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.

Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).

Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.

Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).

Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.

This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).

-Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
Nagamine's (1976). The Essence of Okinawan Karate.

Futhermore...

The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.

A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.

The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.

And to further add comlexity:
A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.

As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.

In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.

It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.

Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.

Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.

The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin

to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata

The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2

 

[_Simon_]

These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.

The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.

The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.

Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).

Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.

Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).

Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.

This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).

-Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
Nagamine's (1976). The Essence of Okinawan Karate.

Futhermore...

The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.

A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.

The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.

And to further add comlexity:
A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.

As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.

In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.

It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.

Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.

Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.

The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin

to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata

The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2

Ah that's really cool, thanks for posting that!

But we were talking about the origins of Gekisai Sho (which is different to Gekisai Dai Ni). We're not sure where it came from...