Tensho kata (internal form?)

[_Simon_]

Just had a look in my old syllabus but not much clarification there, except that the Dai and Sho don't mean anything specific to the kata, didn't know that! Perhaps simply as a way of differentiating it from Goju's Ichi and Ni series?

Have written what it says here:

"Gekisai Dai: Conquer and occupy - major. May also mean "Storm the Fortress". Created by Miyagi in 1940 with the purpose of teaching strong and powerful movement.

Gekisai Sho: Conquer and occupy - minor. There is no reason why one is called major and the other minor. Can also mean "attack and smash, demolish, destroy, pulverize". Both kata teach strength through fluidity of motion, mobility and the utilization of various techniques. Flexibility of attack and response will always be superior to rigid and inflexible strength."

 

[JR 137]

These Kata were created ay the request of Gen Hayakawa (governor of the Okinawa Prefecture) via the Karate-Do Special Committee.

The idea was to create standardised kata that would cut across all the various streams of karate, that were suitable for novices, and would provide a common grounding in the basics of karate.

The Pinans had been in existence for some time, but they were considered to be a summation of “Shuri-te” line alone (quite rightly) and hence were lacking the “Naha-te” side of things.

Shoshin Nagamine made the first kata (Fukyugata Ich) and Chojun Miyagi made the second kata (Fukyugata Ni).

Matsubayashi-ryu still practise them both.

Fukyugata Ni remains part of Goju-Ryu but under the revised name of Gekisai Dai Ichi (normally the first kata taught in Goju-Ryu).

Chojun Miyagi later went on to teach a second version of the same kata, which is largely the same, but with the addition of the circular hand motions common to other Goju kata.

This revised version of Fukyugata Ni / Gekisai Dai Ichi is called Gekisai Dai Ni (normally the second kata taught in Goju).

-Iain Abernethy says this... and it also stated in
Nagamine's (1976). The Essence of Okinawan Karate.

Futhermore...

The kata were finished and introduced in 1941 in order to promote a basic and standard kata across a majority of Okinawan Karate styles, however only some styles continue to practice both, or one of these kata.

A third Fukyugata (Sandan) was composed by Sensei Ansei Ueshiro in 1960, consisting of 17 movements.

The Shorin-Ryu Okinawan Karate Question and Answer Book, written by William Cummins and Robert Scaglione, describes this kata as "characterized by techniques emphasizing speed, combinations and strong, low stances." However, this kata was never adopted in Okinawa Prefecture.

And to further add comlexity:
A third Fukyugata has been created (c. 2015) to showcase Uechi-ryu technique.

As for Mas Oyama developing any of these kata.... that is a nonsensical notion. He didn't start karate until 1946. He didn't create Kyokushin until a decade later.

In 1940, the Governor of Okinawa, Gen Hayakawa, assembled a prestigious Karate-Do Special Committee to address the need for easier basic kata for children.

It is important to note that the formation of the special committee was instigated by the government.

Previous karate groups and societies had been privately organized.

Except for the chairman, the members of the committee represented the new, or transitional, generation of karate instructors.

The list of the nine members was given to Charles C. Goodin by Nagamine Sensei [during an interview about this kata], this lists order: (1) Ishihara Shochoku (chairman), (2) Miyagi Chojun, (3) Kamiya Jinsei, (4) Shinzato Jinan, (5) Miyasato Koji, (6) Tokuda Anbun, (7) Kinjo Kensei, (8) Kyan Shinei, and (9) Nagamine Shoshin

to read the interview, it can be located at The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata

The interview was completed just a few weeks prior to Nagamine Shoshin's death on November 2, 1997 at the age of 91./2

A very well written and thought out post. I knew most of it beforehand, and calling Gekisai Dai Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata was the short version

As Simon said ( ) we’re discussing Gekisai Sho, not Gekisai Dai and it’s versions. I’ve seen several versions of Gekisai Dai by Goju and Fukyu by Shorin Ryu. None of which are similar to Gekisai Sho.

Mas Oyama has created a kata or two - one that I immediately think of is Garyu. He has heavily modified others. Gojushiho has been modified heavily by Oyama and he subsequently named his version Useishi. He heavily modified Seipai and Kanku as well. He’s modified common kyu kata such as Sanchin and Saiha, and slightly modified relatively scarce Yantsu (Shito Ryu) and Tsuki-No (Seigokan Goju Ryu).

With all of that in mind, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Oyama created Gekisai Sho as what he (and I) feel is a logical next step.

Kyokushin’s Gekisai Dai is a tweaked Gekisai Dai ichi. Kyokushin’s Gekisai Sho bears no resemblance to Gekisai Dai ni or less common san. The basic formula: counts, pace and embussen are the same; the movements are not, except the gedan brai into kiba dachi in the beginning IMO.

On face value it would appear to be Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata. Thinking about it for a few minutes - specifically who does it and who doesn’t - and eyebrows get raised. IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly. As far as I know, he was the first to write about its origin, and everything afterwards is either a direct cut and paste or copied and changed a few words.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho. What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata. When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises. This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan. In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas. When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas. I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.

IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly.

There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again ......

 

[JR 137]

Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho. What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata. When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises. This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan. In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas. When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas. I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.

There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again ......

I think the Dai in Shihan Dai is a different word than than in Gekisai Dai. Like here and hear. I could be wrong though; my only Japanese is “dojo Japanese” along with a few phrases my Japanese friends have taught me.

And that’s Arneil’s ONLY falliblity. Superman has kryptonite, Arneil has the origin of Gekisai Sho. At least Arneil’s won’t kill him

 

[DaveB]

Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho. What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata. When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises. This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan. In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas. When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas. I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.

There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again ......

The Dai-Sho relationship in kata seems to denote a Primary/Core form (Dai) and a supplementary/expansion form (Sho).

The implication being that the dai form is the source book for the principles and the Sho form shows other ways to embody those ideas.

 

[_Simon_]

Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho. What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata. When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises. This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan. In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas. When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas. I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.

There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again ......

Ah I wasn't aware of the use of Shihan Dai!

 

[_Simon_]

The Dai-Sho relationship in kata seems to denote a Primary/Core form (Dai) and a supplementary/expansion form (Sho).

The implication being that the dai form is the source book for the principles and the Sho form shows other ways to embody those ideas.

That is... really cool! Thanks for that DaveB, that explanation makes alot of sense.

Gekisai Sho definitely seems to contain/express the principles of Gekisai Dai, but it actually does seem to be an expansion of it. I'd also like to look at Kanki Dai as compared to Kanku Sho but don't know them well enough.

Never heard of that way of explaining it

 

[JR 137]

Ah I wasn't aware of the use of Shihan Dai!

My former organization used it at 5th dan. 6th dan (and above) was Shihan. My former teacher told me Shihan Dai roughly meant “assistant master.” Kind of like assistant manager. That’s basically what Yokozuna514 was saying, only in a different way.

Seido used it for a little while. My teacher has a plaque or two with “Shihan Dai Carter” written on it. I asked him about it, and he giggled and said he had 3 different titles without getting promoted while he was a godan. He went from Sensei to Shihan Dai to Kyoshi within a few years. It was during the time guys like Charles Martin and William Oliver were getting higher in rank and Kaicho wanted to differentiate them from the rest. Kaicho settled on Kyoshi for godan and had specific titles tied to specific dan ranks ever since, tying into the conversation we previously had about titles in Seido.

Edit: Shihan Dai isn’t used anymore in Seido. It was only used for a few years at most.

 

[TSDTexan]

A very well written and thought out post. I knew most of it beforehand, and calling Gekisai Dai Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata was the short version

As Simon said ( ) we’re discussing Gekisai Sho, not Gekisai Dai and it’s versions. I’ve seen several versions of Gekisai Dai by Goju and Fukyu by Shorin Ryu. None of which are similar to Gekisai Sho.

Mas Oyama has created a kata or two - one that I immediately think of is Garyu. He has heavily modified others. Gojushiho has been modified heavily by Oyama and he subsequently named his version Useishi. He heavily modified Seipai and Kanku as well. He’s modified common kyu kata such as Sanchin and Saiha, and slightly modified relatively scarce Yantsu (Shito Ryu) and Tsuki-No (Seigokan Goju Ryu).

With all of that in mind, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Oyama created Gekisai Sho as what he (and I) feel is a logical next step.

Kyokushin’s Gekisai Dai is a tweaked Gekisai Dai ichi. Kyokushin’s Gekisai Sho bears no resemblance to Gekisai Dai ni or less common san. The basic formula: counts, pace and embussen are the same; the movements are not, except the gedan brai into kiba dachi in the beginning IMO.

On face value it would appear to be Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata. Thinking about it for a few minutes - specifically who does it and who doesn’t - and eyebrows get raised. IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly. As far as I know, he was the first to write about its origin, and everything afterwards is either a direct cut and paste or copied and changed a few words.

My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.

It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.

 

[_Simon_]

My former organization used it at 5th dan. 6th dan (and above) was Shihan. My former teacher told me Shihan Dai roughly meant “assistant master.” Kind of like assistant manager. That’s basically what Yokozuna514 was saying, only in a different way.

Seido used it for a little while. My teacher has a plaque or two with “Shihan Dai Carter” written on it. I asked him about it, and he giggled and said he had 3 different titles without getting promoted while he was a godan. He went from Sensei to Shihan Dai to Kyoshi within a few years. It was during the time guys like Charles Martin and William Oliver were getting higher in rank and Kaicho wanted to differentiate them from the rest. Kaicho settled on Kyoshi for godan and had specific titles tied to specific dan ranks ever since, tying into the conversation we previously had about titles in Seido.

Edit: Shihan Dai isn’t used anymore in Seido. It was only used for a few years at most.

Ah I see, interesting, didn't know that. And yeah I think Dai must then be a different word altogether than the one used for katas.

 

[_Simon_]

My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.

It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.

Nah I enjoyed what you wrote, I find interesting not only the history of katas but why they were created, and what principles they're trying to teach the karateka

 

[DaveB]

Looking at Gekisai Sho, my money is on Oyama as creator:

• Mid level side kicks indicate a post war origin.
• The long stances are reminiscent of Shotokan which sit in contrast with the Shiko dachi not found in Shotokan kata but common to Goju ryu.
• Oyama was fond of cat stance.
• The only other place to find a technique combination like that would be Shito ryu, but they were too busy collecting old kata to make up a new one like this.

 

[TSDTexan]

My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.

It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.

@Flying Crane why the dislike bro?

 

[Flying Crane]

@Flying Crane why the dislike bro?

Because you are a jerk and I like stalking you.

Nah, just kidding.

fat-finger syndrome on a smartphone. I didn’t even realize I had given the rating, I hit it by accident while scrolling through.

I’ve removed it.

 

[JR 137]

Because you are a jerk and I like stalking you.

Nah, just kidding.

fat-finger syndrome on a smartphone. I didn’t even realize I had given the rating, I hit it by accident while scrolling through.

I’ve removed it.

Should’ve kept it. Just because.

 

[VPT]

Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL

Osu @Yokazuna514, just filmed it how we normally do it. Note the hand movement after the rising koken, this is how we usually do it.

Oh and also disregard my right foot in sanchin dachi haha, have a sprained ankle so that's how far I could turn it in really XD

And also whacked the vacuum cleaner on my first mawashi uke haha..

And keep in mind it's a 4th kyu performance of this kata hehe, we weren't expected to know it at this grade.

I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.

Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.

Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.

Thanks.
It is my belief that it is probably not possible to reverse-engineer an understanding of internal martial arts on a significant level, or on a level comparable to a serious student of the Chinese internal methods, by studying a non-internal art and using that as a vehicle, without significant instruction by a knowledgeable instructor in the internal methods.

The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.

Hi Simon,
White Crane and it's derivatives are not internal martial arts, the stance doesnt support IMA concepts, niether do the movements or strategy.

This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?

 

[_Simon_]

Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL



I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.

Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.

Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.



The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.



This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?

Thanks so much VPT, that was incredibly insightful! Appreciate it muchly

Yep, what you say makes total sense. Stylistic differences aside, I totally get what you mean in relation to mawashi uke and sanchin. Our sanchin was always both feet turned in, but with enough torque/tension to hold one in place, but can see what you mean about being too much at the end range of that rotation. My sanchin dachi may have been a bit awkward anyway due to my ankle injury too.

Admittedly not overly experienced with Tensho, but would you say in terms of losing gamaku support, in this context do you mean connection with my centre? Makes sense that I would lose the connection when doing it fast as I haven't worked too much with that. I guess why I was trying the slower/"internal" version to enhance that.

Vids were great too

 

[DaveB]

Let me chime in to this conversation too! There's a few things that I'd like to comment about your kata, based on what I know about Southern Chinese styles and t3h iNtErNaL



I frankly don't like some of the things that are specific to Tensho in Kyokushin. This is not style-bashing, just observations and my own preferences with my own reasoning. Like the mawashi-uke; the trajectory of the hands is too big for proper upper back support. When the elbows stray far enough from the body, you lose the muscular connection to the lats and start to rely on the weaker rotator cuff muscles of the shoulder. This makes the movement inefficient and breaks the structure. If I could choose, I would do it smaller; probably like this.

Another thing is the stance, which is unnecessarily wide and angular. In general the Naha-te way of turning the rear foot in has always baffled me, since you can't find that in China, but I don't have any reason to judge that. Instead, when you want to root and adhere to the ground you need to have inward radial rotation/tension in your legs so that you engage muscular support in your hips (the feeling is on the outside of your hips and in the small gluteal muscles). Pre-turning the whole leg can counteract that (you have already manually turned the leg to its end rotation and can't twist any more) and having your heel further from your hips than your knee makes it especially hard to engage that tension. It actually works way better when the heel and the knee are stacked, but foot is still turned slightly inward. This muscular/structural support/tension is the explanation why you see so much variation in the Wing Chun "goat-squeezing stance". Optimally the leg could stand in an apparently neutral position while having the structure applied internally. The thing that I'm talking about is especially visible in this performance.

Also, the slow version looked better than the fast one. When you are moving very vast, you seem to lose the gamaku support, as well as the hip, knee, ankle and foot structure that support the gamaku. This results in incessant shaking and vibration when you are moving through the kata sequence.



The opposite, however, is true. You can take knowledge of movement you learned in an internal art and input that to an external art.



This is surprising to hear; my experience tells me otherwise. A friend of mine met up with a White Crane teacher of some renown and described his and his students being "as good as the best Taiji that I've come across". And he does Chen with one of the best guys out there. Also, the stuff he brought along from this White Crane guy was very interesting and advanced, to say the least. Which crane exactly you have had experience with? Singing? Feeding?

I studied tiger-crane combination. In trying to learn more about it i wound up looking into white crane a lot. Its classified as half internal half external. My understanding of pure internal ma is training to conserve momentum which white crane doesn't do. But it does have many soft fluid elements including chisau.

 

[Flying Crane]

I studied tiger-crane combination. In trying to learn more about it i wound up looking into white crane a lot. Its classified as half internal half external. My understanding of pure internal ma is training to conserve momentum which white crane doesn't do. But it does have many soft fluid elements including chisau.

What was the source of your tiger-crane? If it was hung ga, that crane influence is Tibetan, not Fukien. So, entirely different method.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey guys, I'll preface this by saying I'm not a Chinese martial arts practitioner, nor do i know much about it, nor Taiji, Qi Gong or any of the more internal arts etc, but thought fitting to post and ask here .

I've been working on Tensho kata (a form in karate), and it's said to be more of an internal kata. I've even gone further and slowed the kata right down, working on focusing on deeply rooted stance, awareness on softening the movements, expansion (opening up the body) and compression (rooting down, sinking heaviness in body), grounding, my centre and breathing. And the feeling of being pulled down into the earth if that makes sense.

I was wondering if you guys who practice Taiji or Qi Gong etc have any advice on how to work more on these aspects, or what to focus on moreso. I realise that may be a big ask, and of course performing this with an instructor is optimal, I was just wondering what perspective you may have on this kata, and also whether it resembles any forms you know?

"Tensho" is a Goju ryu kata which means "revolving hands", "rotating palms", or "turning palms." There are different versions of it around, some with harder ibuki breathing too. I also learned it with pushing the hand out in front of you after the raising of the wrist part, but have seen versions which lower the hand back down towards the ground which tends to feel better. I've seen a few technical things I need to work on already, but it's usually a pretty advanced form in most karate styles that practice it, so I definitely consider myself an amateur at it.

I filmed it today in this slower style:

Very funnily, at the very end of the kata the phone fell off the ledge it was sitting on, perhaps I DID perform it right after all! XD

Thanks guys, any thoughts would be great

Not internal, but it could be. Frankly I think Wing Chun Siu Lum Tao, done right, is very internal, why not this. When I use to do it I did it more like a Qigong

1) internal, external does not really matter, train right, internal goes to external and external goes to internal

2) Power comes from the root (feet) is directed by the waist and, in this case, goes to your hands. Use the entire body (feel every movement it in your entire body) and how they parts link together, upper and lower must be unified

3) breath, no pattern, just breath naturally

4) Yi, Qi, Li (Mind [Yi] controls Energy (Qi), Energy (Qi) controls muscle [Li])

5) Qi, it is nothing more than the energy that we have in our body that keeps us moving. It is not some mystical force or magical energy. Strong Qi you are healthy, Weak Qi you are sick, No Qi you are dead.

6) Sung - relaxed but not to relaxed, never hard