We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Taekwondo Master too harsh for my almost 5 year old?
- Thread starter Calliegirl
- Start date
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
as long as you agree on that.
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Markku, I'm not replying to your comment to single you out - a lot of people have said how using a stick in any way is wrong, others replying that it's part of Korean culture. I happened to just be reading a book on Korean sayings and culture and wanted to post a snippet of the book (any typos below I'm sure are mine, from my rapid re-typing of a large piece of text). Yours was one of many comments the section is relevant to, not the only one, but the first one I found.
From: Looking for a Mr Kim in Seoul
Teachers of old were sterm and unforgiving. Confucian ideas stressed that the "king, teacher and father are one and the same - 군사부일체". In old schools called "Houses of Letters 서당"...students knelt before the teacher and read their textbooks on the floor. Boys who failed to memorize their poems and textbooks were summoned and told to roll up their trouser legs. The teacher's bamboo stick whistled through the air and landed on trembling calves. Other boys, waiting their turn, winced at every blow. Hence the expression "If you have to be whipped, it's best to be whipped first - 매도 먼저 맞는 게 낫다".
Until the 1990s, the hickory was a common means of establishing classroom order. Teachers hit students if they were late, had a runny nose, pushed and shoved in line, or couldn't add or subtract.
"Picking up the educational rod 교 편 잡다" is the Korean expression for becoming a teacher. The paddle is euphemistically referred to as the "rod of love".
All Korean men remember a punishment called "Wonsan Bombardment 원산픅격". The victim puts his head on the ground and then raised his hips, forming an arch with his body. Only his head and two feet touched the ground. His hands were locked behind his back. With the student poised in this painful position, a teacher sometimes whacked his buttocks with a rod. It was a common punishment in the South Korean military as well.
The name comes from heavy U.S. aerial attacks on Wonsan, a key beachhead on North Korea's east coast, during the Korean War. The student's head on the ground, with two spread legs, was supposed to resemble a U.S. plane nose-diving toward Wonsan.
Parents and children occasionally report bruises, burst eardrums and other injuries inflicted by teachers. The Education Ministry allows teachers to use corporal punishment only when it is "inevitable for educational purposes". It bans teachers from beating students with broom sticks, slippers, belts, rolled-up newspapers or attendance books.
Amid parental complains, corporal punishment is disappearing from schools. Yet many parents pick up the hickory occasionally to keep kids in line at home.
Anyway, I thought that might be of interest to some who are reading here and wondering about how normal hitting people/children with a stick is in Korean culture.
Markku P
Blue Belt
Well, it was pretty normal in my country too, I think they stopped hitting in the schools in -60 (?)
/Markku P.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
As I haven't posted an opinion yet, I thought I'd also do so now.
Given that the man is from an older generation and the military, given the cultural information I retyped in my post a moment ago, I'm not surprised he picks up a stick as a teaching aid.
From the sound of the OP's messages, the teacher is not violent with it but uses it to tap students. He also doesn't seem use it to intimidate/threaten (in a nasty way) children. Out of interest, for those who object, would you object if he used a double paddle in the same way?
If the OP doesn't feel comfortable with it, then absolutely take your child elsewhere. Young children of that age need a different class type to older children (I personally teach 3-6 years olds in one class, 7-13 in another and 14+ in another).
However, if it was me I wouldn't be worried. Then again, I'm not averse to misbehaving children being smacked by their own parents. I have only used it as a last resort and never hard enough to cause injury. I would not tolerate a teacher (martial arts or otherwise) hitting my child, but a tap with a training aid (be it a stick, paddle or something similar) that doesn't hurt them is perfectly fine. I don't personally use them, but I'm not against it if others do.
If you have your students trained by one of the old guard, guys that learn in a different time and may not have updated their teaching methods, then I would expect your child to learn in a different way to one of the younger/western teachers.
Unlike a lot of other posters, I have no issue with your child learning at 4.5 years old; I have students younger than that. I treat them differently to the older age group (much more tolerant of mistakes, more shouting when kicking, etc).
Given that the man is from an older generation and the military, given the cultural information I retyped in my post a moment ago, I'm not surprised he picks up a stick as a teaching aid.
From the sound of the OP's messages, the teacher is not violent with it but uses it to tap students. He also doesn't seem use it to intimidate/threaten (in a nasty way) children. Out of interest, for those who object, would you object if he used a double paddle in the same way?
If the OP doesn't feel comfortable with it, then absolutely take your child elsewhere. Young children of that age need a different class type to older children (I personally teach 3-6 years olds in one class, 7-13 in another and 14+ in another).
However, if it was me I wouldn't be worried. Then again, I'm not averse to misbehaving children being smacked by their own parents. I have only used it as a last resort and never hard enough to cause injury. I would not tolerate a teacher (martial arts or otherwise) hitting my child, but a tap with a training aid (be it a stick, paddle or something similar) that doesn't hurt them is perfectly fine. I don't personally use them, but I'm not against it if others do.
If you have your students trained by one of the old guard, guys that learn in a different time and may not have updated their teaching methods, then I would expect your child to learn in a different way to one of the younger/western teachers.
Unlike a lot of other posters, I have no issue with your child learning at 4.5 years old; I have students younger than that. I treat them differently to the older age group (much more tolerant of mistakes, more shouting when kicking, etc).
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
All the other things aside, I see no contradiction here. I have spanked my kids on rare occasions but would have a serious problem if someone else, including a teacher, did the same to my children. They don't know when I would use corporal punishment, why I would do so, or how often. And, frankly, it's not their call.
While in theory I have no problem with an instructor carry a bamboo cane to "tap" an arm or leg to get it into position, if it was actually used to discipline children I'd have a problem. Additionally, if a child is uncomfortable in a school even if it's not used for punishment then you should consider looking for a new school that's a better fit.
Pax,
Chris
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
I did not see anybody say it was not ok for a young kid to learn, just that the class structure needs to reflect the age of the students
i have taught the class full of 3-6 year olds as well as the regular beginner class for kids, 6 through 14....
While i could see having a stick with the older kids (as pointer) as beneficial, the little ones seldom need that kind of accurate technique.
(now, I did thoroughly enjoy whomping the kids in sparring class with a blocker! One in each hand if possible!
)
andyjeffries
Senior Master
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
This (snide remark)
Did not warrant what was said above.
We are adults here and should act accordingly. We are but guests here on this site and these threads, and no different then, a guest at someones home. The only rights we have within these posts, are the rights to treat everyone with respect.
miguksaram
Master of Arts
So are you saying it warranted a less harsher snide remark? That is like saying the guy slapped me so I should have just slapped him back instead of punching him. The point being made was that KSD threw a jab and the result was that he got jabbed back. Regardless of if what was said back was harsher than what was orginally said, the original remark should not have been made in the first place.
Agreed.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Pax,
Chris
Pax,
Chris
Most know exactly what I meant. Lets get past the play on words and get on with it.
My recommendation would be to heed the below directive.
ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please return to the original topic.
Jks9199
Assistant Administrator
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
I stand corrected.
HOWEVER...I am assuming that that comes from a tradition of not offering classes for really young kids, but only 'real' classes.
(the Topic, see, I remembered!)
Metal
Green Belt
So that Taekwondo master doesn't use his stick to hurt the kids and in general is a nice person and would never hurt any kids anyway?
It's just that your kid gets intimidated by the presence of a stick and the way the master uses it to tap body/limbs in order to correct technique?
Then you should seriously comsider if it may be better if your kid would start with toddler gymnastics instead of TKD.
In one of the clubs I train at even the 12 to 16 year olds are still scared when it comes to sparring. ;-)
They're not just afraid of being hit, but they're also afraid of hitting me and then being hit in return. I always tell and show them that they can trust me and that I won't hurt them. For example when it's possible to do a headshot I show them that they would have been hit in a match. I also let them go full force when the attack or counter so that they can learn how to doi it in real matches, but they don't need to expect revenge in case they hit me.
Your kid is probably too young to tell that there's no need to be afraid.
Btw, especially when training with kids a stick is the best way to correct stances and technique. Otherwise the instructur needs to kneel or bend down all the time. ;-)
It's just that your kid gets intimidated by the presence of a stick and the way the master uses it to tap body/limbs in order to correct technique?
Then you should seriously comsider if it may be better if your kid would start with toddler gymnastics instead of TKD.
In one of the clubs I train at even the 12 to 16 year olds are still scared when it comes to sparring. ;-)
They're not just afraid of being hit, but they're also afraid of hitting me and then being hit in return. I always tell and show them that they can trust me and that I won't hurt them. For example when it's possible to do a headshot I show them that they would have been hit in a match. I also let them go full force when the attack or counter so that they can learn how to doi it in real matches, but they don't need to expect revenge in case they hit me.
Your kid is probably too young to tell that there's no need to be afraid.
Btw, especially when training with kids a stick is the best way to correct stances and technique. Otherwise the instructur needs to kneel or bend down all the time. ;-)
Here’s my two cents worth on this issue. It all depends on how long and why you want your young son to practice taekwondo. If your instincts tell you that the man in question is the wrong teacher for your son, then by all means pull him out, but bear these things in mind: sooner rather than later, your son will be introduced to some lessons about mental and physical pain. Those hard lessons are least likely to come from the old man with the stick. The teaching will come – probably out of the blue, unfiltered and in ways you can’t protect him – from other boys or girls his age.
True enough of course BUT I think four years old, it might be nearly five but the child is still very, very young for proper martial arts.
