Sword & Hammer, Obscure Wing

[Brenwulv]

Well I just asked the people I train with about this and basicly was set straight. If its a touch or a push you step away with the left foot and if you feel a pull of any kind you step in with the right.

Which makes sense.

The soft target thing is a dead end street, because he may be checking or his motor cycle helmet might get in the way (Ha Ha).

If he's checking then I don't need to work about a punch. If he's checking I have the groin to follow up to.

And as long as I look before I strike, like I should, let him wear a helmet. I'll change the weapon to a heel palm and hopefully rock his head enough to start something else before he can counter.

Doesn't sound like a dead end street. More like a road with lots of exits incase I miss the one I wanted in the first place.

As Robert Stated you really should at least back up your strikes with the structural integrety of a neutral. The ideal phase I know has no pressure so there is nothing hindering you from stepping up the circle and off the line of attack; also, our attack comes from 4:30.
Sean

If the attack is from 3 and if there is a pull it's kinda hard to step to a neutral, especially if by surprise. But if one can, then by all means solidify the best base you can.

If it's from 4:30 then I see your need to step as you do.

Joel

 

[Les]

which I suppose answers the question as to why Mr. Lear lumped these techs toguether on this very thread.... Sean

When did that happen?

Billy Lear didn't start this thread, he simply answered to original question. Kirk was the one who lumped them together.

Les

 

[Doc]

If someone grabs me to turn me into a strike and I hit him in the throat, just enough to stop the attack, I'll be in trouble? I'm sure I'll get questioned, but if I don't crush his throat or anything....

For those that have supreme control even in the heat of battle when threatened, I guess it's ok. For the rest of us it makes more sense to simply pick a non-lethal but effective target. "Oops" will get you locked up. Accident or not, you're locked up.

Second point, his punch would more than likely be loaded up for the strike, probably by his shoulder (right punch). If my handsword is going toward his head at the same time, how can my hand/arm not deflect the strike in some way?

Same trajectory on parallel planes. Not likely. Decide which you want to do block or strike. besides the punch is not a part of the technique, and is only a possibility that must be considered later in your study and not at the tme you initially learn the technique.

Properly examined the punch is contained at the next level of instruction with no appreaciable change in the default technique.

 

[pete]

For those that have supreme control even in the heat of battle when threatened, I guess it's ok. For the rest of us it makes more sense to simply pick a non-lethal but effective target. "Oops" will get you locked up. Accident or not, you're locked up.

culled this from my response back on page-2

S&H is taught at yellow belt because of its ease of execution and elementary use of motion, however the responsibility associated with this technique exceeds the training associated with that novice level.

The system of EPAK that I learned has also integrated several techniques from Parker's older Chinese Kenpo system in the lower belt curriculum. Two of which may represent technically more advanced motion, but a far less lethal effect: Wraparound and Wing Break.

Both of these give the defender ample time to identify the attacker and continue only when necessary. I have a lot of trouble teaching S&H without the disclaimer that it is strictly for laboratory purposes and should not be tried at home.

and at les' request, described the 2 techniques:

Wrap Around: pin attackers hand to your shoulder and step in towards the attacker with your right foot to 2:00. rotate your right arm up and around his in a circular clockwise motion to lock him up. Using an uppercut thrust at the end of the lock can inflict even greater damage. a eye rake can be activated as your arm circles around.

Wing Break: pin the hand to your shoulder, but this time step away from the attacker with your left foot to 9:00, thereby extending his arm. attacking his locked elbow with a right upward palm heel. then circle your right arm counter clocksise up and around his arm so that your hand reaches and grabs his shoulder. go into a left rear twist and throw him down as you unwind from the twist. an elbow to the bicep can be activated during the circular arm movement, as well as a side knife edge kick to the face as he is falling from the throw

wing break, by steping out with your left foot, is in response to the attacker using a pushing force, or "stiff arm", as opposed to wraparound/s&h where you go with the attackers pulling force by stepping towards him with your right.

Doc, how do you view the retention of these techniques in the system?

 

[Nick Ellerton]

im sorry doc. i didnt explain myself properly. the grab is to your right flank, so by pinning with your left hand and stepping back with your right foot to 4 30 into a left neutral executing the outward hand sword it is gaining more depth of penetration in the strike, exposing more of the groin, making the strikes more effective. As far as the rotation of the upper pectoral gurdle is concerned, your torso as you drop into the neutral bow puts more emphasis on power on the strike. hope that helps thats just the way i was taught it.

 

[Brenwulv]

For those that have supreme control even in the heat of battle when threatened, I guess it's ok. For the rest of us it makes more sense to simply pick a non-lethal but effective target. "Oops" will get you locked up. Accident or not, you're locked up.

Fair enough. Your first responce seemed like even going for a throat strike would result in jail which isn't really the case. And as you said, in the heat of battle, control is an issue. No saying you'll even hit the throat, maybe smack the chest or face by accident.

Same trajectory on parallel planes. Not likely. Decide which you want to do block or strike. besides the punch is not a part of the technique, and is only a possibility that must be considered later in your study and not at the tme you initially learn the technique.

Properly examined the punch is contained at the next level of instruction with no appreaciable change in the default technique.

How's it a parallel line? If my hands are down at my sides, or standard 'ready position', hands near chest level, I'll have to strike upward in some fashion to hit the throat, even more so if they are taller. If for some reason they are shorter and attacking (I'm 5'6" so not likely) they'll have to strike up, the angles aren't 90 degree perfect, but they aren't exactly parallel either.

Also the punch is a what if, agreed. I was just responding to TOD I believe who said you needed to step off line to get out of the way if a strike was coming. I maintain that a swordhand will work as a deflection if a strike happens to be introduced.

Joel

 

[Touch Of Death]

Fair enough. Your first responce seemed like even going for a throat strike would result in jail which isn't really the case. And as you said, in the heat of battle, control is an issue. No saying you'll even hit the throat, maybe smack the chest or face by accident.



How's it a parallel line? If my hands are down at my sides, or standard 'ready position', hands near chest level, I'll have to strike upward in some fashion to hit the throat, even more so if they are taller. If for some reason they are shorter and attacking (I'm 5'6" so not likely) they'll have to strike up, the angles aren't 90 degree perfect, but they aren't exactly parallel either.

Also the punch is a what if, agreed. I was just responding to TOD I believe who said you needed to step off line to get out of the way if a strike was coming. I maintain that a swordhand will work as a deflection if a strike happens to be introduced.

Joel

I agree and unfortunantly I totaly disagree with the idea of discerning between your blocks and strikes. Just go.
sean

 

[Thesemindz]

I maintain that a swordhand will work as a deflection if a strike happens to be introduced.

Joel

I agree with you, but I think it's important to remember that a solid blocking maneuver can still be punched through. A handsword in motion might deflect the initial punch, but I wouldn't put my money on it. It's a nice white zone check, and at least it's between his fist and your face, but I'd rather trust my position then my defensive maneuver. If he can't reach you, or if you are off the line, then deflecting his punch is a decision on your part, rather than a hail-mary-hope-this-works-and-I-don't-get-a-broken-jaw-and-hand-instead technique. I'm not really referring to this technique specifically as much as I am the idea of deflecting his attack with mine in general. The strikes are blocks and the blocks are strikes, but I don't want to block when I can just move instead.

-Rob

 

[Brenwulv]

I agree and unfortunantly I totaly disagree with the idea of discerning between your blocks and strikes. Just go.
sean

??? Just go....

:uhyeah: okay.

Joel

 

[Brenwulv]

I agree with you, but I think it's important to remember that a solid blocking maneuver can still be punched through. A handsword in motion might deflect the initial punch, but I wouldn't put my money on it. It's a nice white zone check, and at least it's between his fist and your face, but I'd rather trust my position then my defensive maneuver. If he can't reach you, or if you are off the line, then deflecting his punch is a decision on your part, rather than a hail-mary-hope-this-works-and-I-don't-get-a-broken-jaw-and-hand-instead technique. I'm not really referring to this technique specifically as much as I am the idea of deflecting his attack with mine in general. The strikes are blocks and the blocks are strikes, but I don't want to block when I can just move instead.

-Rob

I agree with everything you said.

I wasn't saying it's the ideal thing to do, more the "oh S***!" thing to do when you've no other option.

If the attack happens and I start to move, then notice something I might not be expecting, my intended strike has to turn to a block/parry of some sort. It won't be strong, but if I don't lose any teeth I'd call it fair.

It's all I'm trying to say.

Joel

 

[Thesemindz]

I agree with everything you said.

I wasn't saying it's the ideal thing to do, more the "oh S***!" thing to do when you've no other option.

If the attack happens and I start to move, then notice something I might not be expecting, my intended strike has to turn to a block/parry of some sort. It won't be strong, but if I don't lose any teeth I'd call it fair.

It's all I'm trying to say.

Joel

It's good to see that you and I are in such total agreement. If we get any more agreeable, people will start to look at us funny. ;-j

I always tell my students that it's better to be punched in the hand than the face. I would rather not be punched at all, but I can fight with a broken hand, it's harder to fight when your jaw and nose are broken and you're passed out in a pool of your own blood.

-Rob

 

[Brenwulv]

.....it's harder to fight when your jaw and nose are broken and you're passed out in a pool of your own blood.

-Rob

Heeheheh, I'd like to meet the person that could.

Joel

 

[Doc]

... I totaly disagree with the idea of discerning between your blocks and strikes. Just go.
sean

That I never said. I said you have to decide what you're going to do in this instance on the first move. You can't say I'll throw and handsword and if he punches at the same time, it'll take care of it.

 

[Thesemindz]

Heeheheh, I'd like to meet the person that could.

Joel

I don't know, he may be one bad mamma jamma. If he's on my side, well then all's the better. If he's the other guy though, well, that's why I own a Desert Eagle .45.

-Rob

 

[Doc]

culled this from my response back on page-2

Doc, how do you view the retention of these techniques in the system?

Well in our curriculum there are various responses to similar attacks. Sword and Hammer, Obscure Wing, Obscure Claws, and Falcons of Force all address various aspects, although I would imagine the interpretations I was taught by the "Old Man" are probably different. The description of "Wing Break" bares a faint similarity to "Obscure Claws."

The other technique is a mystery to me, because I don't understand its description, and I'm not certain I want to. At any rate, techniques that rely on "eye rakes" and "throat strikes" are not a part of our curriculum. There is no martial skill in sticking your fingers in someones eyes, or even hitting them in the throat as some prefer in "Sword & hammer." Any kid on the playground can do that without training and such actions are obviously at the elementary level in "martial" study.

My point is, regardless of the technique, instructors much develop the skill and knowledge to teach students to handle assaults without resorting to possible permanent injuries, or death to an attacker who is not presenting a life threatening assault. Our society won't accept otherwise, and the ability to do so separates the beginner in the arts (no matter how tough they are) from the true professors. Most have a "tiger" mentality, and with that thought process will NEVER become "dragons." "Tigers are easy. It only takes an attitude, not skill." - Ed Parker Sr.

Good thoughts "Pete" :asian:

 

[Doc]

the grab is to your right flank, so by pinning with your left hand and stepping back with your right foot to 4 30 into a left neutral executing the outward hand sword it is gaining more depth of penetration in the strike,

Well sir, I agree but you also gave him your centerline and most significantly, destroyed all of your structural integrity with that step.

exposing more of the groin,

Correct; Yours!

As far as the rotation of the upper pectoral gurdle is concerned, your torso as you drop into the neutral bow puts more emphasis on power on the strike.

Well in anatomical terms, we have some problems here. (Anatomy at its terms are very complex) Power is a relative term, and to trade off perceived "power" for a breakdown in anatomical structure negates any benefit beyond a "sell out" maneuver that leaves you completely vulnerable should it fail.

I suggest you "challenge" your technique methodology in class as we do by having your "training partner" igore the first strike (tough guy, drugs, blocked, missed, whatever) and immediately attempt to smother and grapple you with their full body weight as is quite possible on the street. We challenge all of our movements constantly for structural effectives beyond "flailing blunt force trauma" which ultimately means the toughest/strongest wins. That's not "martial science" study.

 

[Blindside]

The "wraparounds" that he is talking about are the hand isolations in Long 3 after Glancing Spear and before Crossing Talon. Some people call this "Pinning Wing" and "Controlled Wing." The particular reference here is to the second of these, the Controlled Wing.

Lamont

 

[Touch Of Death]

That I never said. I said you have to decide what you're going to do in this instance on the first move. You can't say I'll throw and handsword and if he punches at the same time, it'll take care of it.

Actualy I feel the motion of the outward extended block, and the outward handword, eye whip, backnuckle, obscure claw, or what ever are all the same so if the punch is comming the only decision to make is how to fasion your hand. If you find yourself striking a checked target, then you screwed up. You have to move from point of origin so what it becomes is a decision made about half way through. If you moving correctly the block is within the strike. There is no need to switch from offensive to defensive in your head.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Fair enough. Your first responce seemed like even going for a throat strike would result in jail which isn't really the case. And as you said, in the heat of battle, control is an issue. No saying you'll even hit the throat, maybe smack the chest or face by accident.

On one hand you say you're good enough to control the strike to the throat, but on the other, not good enough to actually hit it and would "accidently" hit something else. And yes, given the level of aggression prescribed in the technique you WILL go to jail. I've booked a few myself. I only emphasize this to change your mindset with regards to how society deals with these incidents. There are some schools that quite wrongly teach "life and death responses" to non-life threatening "possible" attacks. Our society looks upon these things quite harshly, and placing yourself in a position to possibly kill or seriously injure someone for placing their hand on your shoulder is not acceptable. Please consider this. I personally know martial artist who have been incarcerated for multiple years for "defending themselves."

How's it a parallel line? If my hands are down at my sides, or standard 'ready position', hands near chest level, I'll have to strike upward in some fashion to hit the throat, even more so if they are taller.

Well sir, if you are striking upward you are right, but you cannot strike the throat from there. Not withstanding attempting to strke from this angle is ANATOMICALLY WRONG for any target, and repeated practice will cause damage to the shoulder over time. Guaranteed!

 

[Doc]

Actualy I feel the motion of the outward extended block, and the outward handword, eye whip, backnuckle, obscure claw, or what ever are all the same so if the punch is comming the only decision to make is how to fasion your hand. If you find yourself striking a checked target, then you screwed up. You have to move from point of origin so what it becomes is a decision made about half way through. If you moving correctly the block is within the strike. There is no need to switch from offensive to defensive in your head.
Sean

Trust me it does make a BIG difference in your head. I also have always challenged the notion of 'point of origin' having anatomical efficacy - and so did Parker Sr. "Point of origin" is a relative term that has been corrupted to mean a "linear line to the target."