Striking V Grappling/Throwing

[chinto]

Sorry but I have to point out that perhaps you haven't read my whole post, or that perhaps you didn't get what I was trying to say. Once again I will try to clarify. I stated that there are many techniques that are locks and holds (also known as grappling techniques) that allow you to stay mobile and alert. Able to defend against others if needed, while disabling any attacks from your current opponent.
I have unfortunately seen many fights firsthand. I've been in a few as well. Multiple attackers is a very common occurance.

My statement was that there are techniques that are great for self defense on the street, and some better left in the ring with a referee.i stand by this statement. If you clinch and aren't aware of what is going on around you, and it's obvious you have the upper hand, you arengoing to see this person's buddy choose to get into the mix and possibly hit you with a bottle or something. If you DO go to the ground you can and likely will get stomped. Groundwork is essential to train in order to get off the ground as quickly as possible.

An example of a grappling technique I have used in a real fight however, is a rear choke with my opponent bent backward and off balance. Bring them up on their toes and the can't do too much against you. I then used him as a shield between myself and his friend who had a knife as I tried to talk him down. The cops arrived shortly after and I have no doubt that this technique saved me from injury.
If I had just clinched this guy with my head burried, or tried a takedown or any number of techniques that are, as I said, best left to a one on one structured fight, I might not be here.

Yes grappling has its place and is very useful but use your head when picking your techniques for the situation.

I agree!! and If you had gone to the ground his friend would have used boots or that blade very quickly on you! But once again using your head was the best thing in the world to do to deal with it!

 

[Curlykarateka]

Yes, you should.

(IOW, both).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

apologies for not making myself clear. I'm aware of the necessity of both, but I was wondering about the benefits of both approaches from people who know more than me about self defense (i do not participate in sport fighting)

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't regard them as separate approaches. They work together, like peanut butter and jelly. Eating just peanut butter or just jelly makes a crappy sandwhich in my opinion.

 

[Cyriacus]

An example of a grappling technique I have used in a real fight however, is a rear choke with my opponent bent backward and off balance. Bring them up on their toes and the can't do too much against you. I then used him as a shield between myself and his friend who had a knife as I tried to talk him down. The cops arrived shortly after and I have no doubt that this technique saved me from injury.
If I had just clinched this guy with my head burried, or tried a takedown or any number of techniques that are, as I said, best left to a one on one structured fight, I might not be here.

One things, not to devalue the incident.
Most kids with knives are about as effective as kids with condoms. They have them, but they probably dont have any idea how to use them. In that instance, it isnt hard to grab your friends shoulder and punch the knife over and behind him. Since it was a fight though, and not attempted murder, the situation is different. Its good that it worked out okay anyway

All i mean by that is, theres no such thing as stuff that works. Theres stuff that might work, and stuff that worked 'that one time'. Try not to use isolated examples as proof of a point (I dont mean proving things to anyone here. I mean to yourself. You can emulate the effect on your own - If you were to grab the shoulder of someone in a rear choke, you can fairly easily get a knife behind them to the guys whos arms are indisposed doing the choking.)

 

[Drasken]

One things, not to devalue the incident.
Most kids with knives are about as effective as kids with condoms. They have them, but they probably dont have any idea how to use them. In that instance, it isnt hard to grab your friends shoulder and punch the knife over and behind him. Since it was a fight though, and not attempted murder, the situation is different. Its good that it worked out okay anyway

All i mean by that is, theres no such thing as stuff that works. Theres stuff that might work, and stuff that worked 'that one time'. Try not to use isolated examples as proof of a point (I dont mean proving things to anyone here. I mean to yourself. You can emulate the effect on your own - If you were to grab the shoulder of someone in a rear choke, you can fairly easily get a knife behind them to the guys whos arms are indisposed doing the choking.)

Lol of course I see what you mean, but also to clarify. This was no kid with the knife. Also his friend, who I had locked in a choke was unable to get balance back because of the angle I had him in and I never let his feet fully touch the ground. I had him off balance the whole time. I also had the "choke" using only one arm since I wasn't trying to lock it in and choke him out. It was mostly just to keep his focus on my arm and keep him from getting away. Worst case scenario I take his balance completely and throw him, which I eventually did. I have used this technique several times to varying degrees of success, but when it fails I just toss the person and move on to other techniques.

I have other examples of techniques used effectively that could prove my point, even an Ikkyo arm pin could have illustrated my previous point. But this I felt was one of my more compelling stories. Thankfully this is the only story in which a weapon was involved, and it turned out ok.

 

[chinto]

A lot of systems teach all of them though. Okinawan Karate systems, most at least teach striking: ( kicks punches) Grapplingcontrols/ locks and Brakes ) throws: many are designed to NOT be able to be beak fallen out of, but rather to do injury of a serious nature.. many kung fu systems do the same, as do the traditional japanese jujitsu systems and even kodokan judo when taught the old way. ( but that was taught normally after Black belt in judo ) so there are a lot of systems out there that teach them.

 

[Cyriacus]

Lol of course I see what you mean, but also to clarify. This was no kid with the knife. Also his friend, who I had locked in a choke was unable to get balance back because of the angle I had him in and I never let his feet fully touch the ground. I had him off balance the whole time. I also had the "choke" using only one arm since I wasn't trying to lock it in and choke him out. It was mostly just to keep his focus on my arm and keep him from getting away. Worst case scenario I take his balance completely and throw him, which I eventually did. I have used this technique several times to varying degrees of success, but when it fails I just toss the person and move on to other techniques.

I have other examples of techniques used effectively that could prove my point, even an Ikkyo arm pin could have illustrated my previous point. But this I felt was one of my more compelling stories. Thankfully this is the only story in which a weapon was involved, and it turned out ok.

Kid was a figure of speech

The guy being choked doesnt need balance - The guy with the knife never lost it.
If your left arm is free, your right side is vulnerable. And vice versa.
If you threw him, youd be indisposed for about a second. A second is about five stab wounds.

 

[Drasken]

Kid was a figure of speech

The guy being choked doesnt need balance - The guy with the knife never lost it.
If your left arm is free, your right side is vulnerable. And vice versa.
If you threw him, youd be indisposed for about a second. A second is about five stab wounds.

Of course. That's why I used his buddy as a shield. And upon releasing it was done with a kick, sending the one guy into the guy with the knife. Gave me a little leeway when recovering. But of course all it takes is one slip up. Distance and awareness is key. I hate defending against knives, no matter your experience level, a weapon is generally bad news. This encounter was like all weapon encounters. Equal combination of skill, reaction and luck got me out unscathed (other than bruises from initial sucker punch) but it could have easily gone the other way.
Problem is that many people learn techniques that are honestly effective, but then start thinking that they are some action film hero. That's when people get injured or worse.

So yeah, while my argument for effectiveness of technique is valid your point is also valid. Trust me when I say there is no overconfidence here on my part. If I could have got away without confrontation I would rather have run away.

 

[Cyriacus]

Of course. That's why I used his buddy as a shield.
So yeah, while my argument for effectiveness of technique is valid your point is also valid. Trust me when I say there is no overconfidence here on my part. If I could have got away without confrontation I would rather have run away.

I know - But its still a shield thatd be very easy to stab right over the top of. Effortless, even. Grab a couple of mates and try it with a rolled up magazine. I guarantee that the weapon wielder will be able to, with very little effort, grab his friend whos being used as a shield and just stab around him. If hed been trying to do that, kicking his buddy into him would have just given him an obstacle to shove off to the side, assuming they werent already body to body at that point, which which case it wouldnt have done much good anyway.

Like i say - Im not devaluing the incident, but theres a reason i made the 'kid with a knife' analogy.

 

[Drasken]

I know - But its still a shield thatd be very easy to stab right over the top of. Effortless, even. Grab a couple of mates and try it with a rolled up magazine. I guarantee that the weapon wielder will be able to, with very little effort, grab his friend whos being used as a shield and just stab around him. If hed been trying to do that, kicking his buddy into him would have just given him an obstacle to shove off to the side, assuming they werent already body to body at that point, which which case it wouldnt have done much good anyway.

Like i say - Im not devaluing the incident, but theres a reason i made the 'kid with a knife' analogy.

Ah, I get your meaning now. Of course in that context you're right. It's all about distance. The second I detected his intent to close the gap is when I kicked his friend into him and had to prepare a different strategy. It would be more effective to use a bar stool if the guy with the knife closes distance as a person is harder to move about quickly.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ah, I get your meaning now. Of course in that context you're right. It's all about distance. The second I detected his intent to close the gap is when I kicked his friend into him and had to prepare a different strategy. It would be more effective to use a bar stool if the guy with the knife closes distance as a person is harder to move about quickly.

Now were understanding one another