palm strikes?

[MJS]

i have only ever got into 2 real fights , the first i won by knees and a hip throw from the clinch , the second i won with a double leg takedown then a (not so tight) rear naked choke until he calmed down and we apoligised to eachother , and i never intend to fight again. ive always hated the thought of punching because of the chances of damaging the knuckles or wrist. last night for the first time i punched the pads with grappling gloves on (the same the UFC ones) , it was ok until i did a hook , which hurt my wrist evertime.

i was wondering that if i ever get into another situation like the ones mentioned above, should i keep the same technique but use palm strikes instead of a closed fist? and is there a way i can use my palm with a hook? it feels a bit , well , strange using my palm in a hook , maybe im just not used to it

and are there any reasons not to use palm strikes? , and if i do use them should i practice first to get the right "feel"?


chris

I've hurt my wrist in the past when throwing a hook. Of course, this was my own fault for not keeping my hand in the proper position.

i think maybe you misunderstood me , i meant i was throwing the palm hooks (for use of a better name lol) with my fingers up not my regular hook , but that was wrong aswell , so why am i posting this:uhyeah:

Question. When you state that you have your fingers up, I'm taking that as pointing up towards the sky? If thats the case you may want to have have them to the side, almost as if you were going to slap across the face. Cupping your hand will give the strike a bit more effect. I've used this on the focus mitts and its worked well for me.

Mike

 

[kachi]

I've ended confrontations twice with palm heels, both times in a downward direction, one resulted in a broken nose and the other with the guys knees buckling, and him being semi conscious. I prefer, downward or hooking motions to straight strike type.

Excuse my ignoance, but how do you manage a downward palm heel to the head? Going over in my head and it seems like a very awkward attack. Unless the other guy was lower/shorter than you?

 

[g-bells]

palm thrusts are effective and if applied correctly can cause alot of damage. you could also use a well placed elbow

 

[Danjo]

Question. When you state that you have your fingers up, I'm taking that as pointing up towards the sky? If thats the case you may want to have have them to the side, almost as if you were going to slap across the face. Cupping your hand will give the strike a bit more effect. I've used this on the focus mitts and its worked well for me.

Mike

I've used this for years in free-sparring and it seems to have more effect than a punch. It's one of my favorite ways to wack someone in their headgear. Of course they give you no points in tournaments for it.

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

Excuse my ignoance, but how do you manage a downward palm heel to the head? Going over in my head and it seems like a very awkward attack.

agreed

 

[morph4me]

Excuse my ignoance, but how do you manage a downward palm heel to the head? Going over in my head and it seems like a very awkward attack. Unless the other guy was lower/shorter than you?

He was attempting a takedown or a bearhug or something, and he wasn't very good at it, and it seemed the thing to do at the time.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Your probably not doing your hook right. But if you choose to do hook with a palm it'll take some getting used to. And keep this Wing Chun saying in mind:
"If you're in a fight, and don't want to kill your opponent, keep your hands closed"

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

Your probably not doing your hook right. But if you choose to do hook with a palm it'll take some getting used to. And keep this Wing Chun saying in mind:
"If you're in a fight, and don't want to kill your opponent, keep your hands closed"

il remember that , i read on another forum that palm strikes can damage the wrist , is this correct?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Yes, but there is a much lower chance of it. It has to do with the structure of the fist. When you make a fist you have to get all the bones of your hands in perfect alignment. Keep in mind there are 19 bones in the human hand, and since there is almost no muscle there, if you do something wrong you will know it. You also have to have all the bones in your wrist in the correst alignment. I beleive there are 12 in the wrist. Again, no muscle.
However, if you use a palm strike you could damage the wrist. But because you'd have to get less bones in a lignment, it's harder to do.

 

[Iron Leopard]

I used to teach some bouncers and they would primarily use palm strikes if the need to strike was there.

The main reason was not hurting thier knuckles. if you walk into a nightclub and the bouncer has a broken hand...there will be a strong thought to not enter and that it is a shady establishment.

You can hook with palms by rotating the strike much like you would with most of the punches we throw.

anyways...just my 2 cents!

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

so its agreed then , palm strikes are the mutts nuts!:uhyeah:

so why is closed fist punching taught in so many MAs if you could just palm strike , i know for some arts its basuese of the use of boxing gloves but with arts like gishin jujitsu why do they teach closed fist? and why do they use closed fist so much in the UFC?

 

[Iron Leopard]

well a fist is still a good strike, a thrust punch or front punch using your two big knuckles to a nice target. There is no better body shot than the thrust where your hand is turned side ways right to the ribs! and then there is using your knuckles to strike the temple, bicept, bridge of the nose etc. so fists are not all bad.

 

[chris_มวยไทย]

well a fist is still a good strike, a thrust punch or front punch using your two big knuckles to a nice target. There is no better body shot than the thrust where your hand is turned side ways right to the ribs! and then there is using your knuckles to strike the temple, bicept, bridge of the nose etc. so fists are not all bad.

oh yeah good point

 

[Brad Dunne]

Lots of good reply's, so I'll try not to repeat what already has been stated, with mabey an exception or two. I teach my students to only use a punch to body areas and then they to are target specific at that. I do however use the hammer fist to the head, if one feels they must attack there. My rational for not punching/fist to the head.

1) Already stated (infections). You will without a doubt, open your knuckles up if you punch to the mouth. Your attacker/opponent has aids, congradulations, you have opened yourself up to the same.
2) Already stated (Broken hand bones). You can break your hand, even on a correctly delivered punch and more times than not, defeated yourself in the altercation. At the very least, you have now made it more than an even fight for the other guy.
3) An open handed posture gives the impression to watchers, that you are not trying to fight. Looks very good if you happen to find yourself in court.
4) Open handed defense has already given you access to using locks and throws, if one happens to use these techniques.
5) Depending on the individual (size and strength) Palm strikes may by somewhat less powerfull than a punch, but not to the point where it will not be affective. Plus, the open handed position allows for hitting areas that a fist may not make enough of a good contact or it's just easier to access (ie: neck, groin, throat, collar bone, elbow).

 

[Danjo]

well a fist is still a good strike, a thrust punch or front punch using your two big knuckles to a nice target. There is no better body shot than the thrust where your hand is turned side ways right to the ribs! and then there is using your knuckles to strike the temple, bicept, bridge of the nose etc. so fists are not all bad.

Completely true. There was not ONE old Okinawan or Japanese Karateka that did not advocate Makiwara training to condition the fist. Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Miyagi etc. etc. They ALL used it and in fact said that it's not even Karate without the Makiwara. Motobu said that one cannot develop the needed penetration without Makiwara practice etc.

When A fist is conditioned in this manner, fists work beautifully for striking. Even to the head. I once hit someone between his eyes with my two knuckles and knocked him out cold. His eyes rolled up into their sockets and he dropped like a felled cow. My fist was just fine because I have always conditioned it.

Now a days, due to people's reluctance to practice this type of conditioning, they can't hit hard targets without injury to their hands, so alternate methods of striking are emphasized and others discouraged entirely. Too bad. Nothing wrong with using the palm strikes and knife hands, but the fist is very useful also if trained properly. A soft heavy bag will not condition a fist the way a makiwara will. It will not prepare a fist to strike the harder bones of the head. While just as much force may be generated with a palm strike as a fist, it's like the difference between getting hit with a rubber mallet versus a wooden mallet. To this day, I hit a 2X4 hundreds of times per day. Often my instructor can be seen hitting his hand held Makiwara while walking around instructing our classes also. It's a shame if this is let go entirely from a curriculum of training.

 

[tellner]

Go back to the days of bareknuckle boxing for a moment. Take a look at Notre Dame's mascot the "Fighting Irish" leprechaun. That both-hands-on-centerline stance was one of the most common guards of the day. Actually, there were quite a few guards, and a big part of boxing was knowing which to use when.

Notice how the knuckles were pointing towards the invisible enemy? That's not an accident. And it's not because they didn't know how to hit people. What we now call the backfist and hammer fist were a lot more common back then. They may not have all the power of a modern cross, but they are much less likely to break the knuckles or give you the classic "boxer's fracture" of the fourth and fifth metacarpals. The reason for the wrap and the tape and the gloves isn't to protect your opponent. It's to turn your (delicate, breakable) hand into a hoof that can stand up to the entire force of your body concentrated onto a couple square inches. When gloves supplanted bare knuckle one of the things that made the difference was that the bare knuckle boxers' hands gave out after a dozen or so rounds against the protected fists of the gloved fighters.

Modern boxing banned the palm-heel, the hammer fist and the back fist. But there are still fossils. When you do speed bag work you are working a classic bare knuckle combination: Turn the head with the first hit. Hammerfist to turn it the other direction. Strike with the other hand against the locked-out neck.

 

[Gufbal1982]

In the UFC you have to remember that most of the people in the weight classes usually have the same reach. Even though palm strikes are strong, punches have more reach. So, now it is a question of circumstance...what does the situation call for? A punch, palm or elbow?

Another thing to remember is that in the UFC they train gloved striking (boxing, kickboxing) and the defenses that go with those sports. Historical significance is a big thing with those disciplines of fighting. Even though transitionwise palms would be good from striking to grappling, the MMA fighters train in styles where they hit with thr padded surface of a glove that is in the shape of a fist. Check out pancrase though...lots of palm striking there!

 

[Steel Tiger]

so its agreed then , palm strikes are the mutts nuts!:uhyeah:

so why is closed fist punching taught in so many MAs if you could just palm strike , i know for some arts its basuese of the use of boxing gloves but with arts like gishin jujitsu why do they teach closed fist? and why do they use closed fist so much in the UFC?

From the point of view of traditional CMA training is carried out with a closed fist because of the power of the palm. In the centre of the palm is a qi portal known as Lao Gong ("Field of Work") which was considered very dangerous.

The art of Baguazhang focuses almost exclusively on the use of the palm as its name implies (eight trigram palm). The palm is an easier weapon to use and when combined with the waist motion of ba gua footwork generates a lot of power.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan and Tai Chi are traditional and they both use palm strikes.
As does I believe Wing Chun also traditional

 

[Cruentus]

One of the very best in the world, bar none, no exaggeration is Phil Messina of Long Island. NYPD's most decorated cop. One of three survivors of the Violent Street Crimes Unit. Most felony arrests. The 200+ students at his school are mostly active duty law enforcement. Marine Corps in Vietnam with a heavily redacted service record. You get the idea.

He doesn't teach punching with the closed fist anymore for just the reasons you mention plus a few others. His people have set up heavy bags with strain gauges and accelerometers and found that the palm heel strike does not hit noticeably slower, softer or with less power than closed-fist strikes.

Sounds like Mr. Messina knows what he is talking about.

I agree with that assessment. And for the untrained fighter, or even with most fighters the way they are trained, palm strikes don't hit noticeably slower or with less damage to the attacker. There are some more fine tuned skills that you can do with a closed fist, but these are out the window for most people in real encounters.

And I would actually make the arguement that most untrained fighters will actually hit harder with palms then closed fist; or at least this is what I notice when working with people. Most people who punch without hand/wrist protection tend to put less power and body weight behind the strike to save the hand/wrist. For palm strikes, this is not a concern so they tend to put more body behind the strike without hesitation. This is what I have noticed as a trainer, anyhow. Perhaps in the actual fight under stress, they would hit that first one or two strikes closed fist with power, at the expense of damaging the hand/wrist, meaning that follow up strikes are less damaging due to injury. This would explain data the shows that many people tend to injure their hand/wrists in street fights.

So unless they are in my bare-knuckle program where how to punch closed fisted is an intricate part of the program, I teach soley palms. This is especially true for tactical and self-defense programs.