Curlykarateka
Yellow Belt
Just what's on the tin, I'm wondering whether to develop my knowledge of longer striking ranges (kicking, punching) or of close quarters control based takedowns and throws. Thanks in advance for any replies.
Striking V Grappling/Throwing
- Thread starter Curlykarateka
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Simon Belmont
White Belt
What do you plan to use you knowledge for?
If you wanna do tournaments and competition stuff, learn some grappling. It's very useful on the mat.
If you wanna learn self-defense type stuff, learn striking or throwing. Grappling on the streets isn't smart (bashing your head in on the pavement), but then again neither is fighting on the streets in the first place.
If you wanna do tournaments and competition stuff, learn some grappling. It's very useful on the mat.
If you wanna learn self-defense type stuff, learn striking or throwing. Grappling on the streets isn't smart (bashing your head in on the pavement), but then again neither is fighting on the streets in the first place.
chinto
Senior Master
Okinawan Karate has striking, locking, braking and throwing, with the grapples to get to the lock and throw. Many older arts do have all of those. Japanese samurai Jujitsu, even judo has strikes at the dan levels I understand. So I would say for self defense look into such arts. if you are looking to compete in some of the tournaments, depending on the rules BJJ is great and so is wrestling...
frank raud
Master of Arts
How do you throw without grappling?
Ultimately it depends on what you want to train for. In the ring, have fun. Your life isn't on the line. BJJ and basic striking can go far.
On the street, grappling can leave you open to other attackers and ground game is always a bad idea. There are exceptions to this, and all styles focusing on grappling and throws have excellent techniques that allow you to lock up and disable an opponent while remaining somewhat mobile and able to stay alert to surroundings and able to react and defend.
Striking, at least the basics, is pretty much a necessity. Even just for training purposes.
Figure out your preference. Not everyone is a striker, not everyone is a grappler. Even two students from the same school will have differing approaches to a situation. At the end of the day, learning martial arts is a very personal path that we must all walk down in our own way. It's different for all of us, and there really isn't a "best art" or even a "best way" of doing it. Use your head in a life or death situation, experience and common sense will teach you what techniques are most effectively used in the street, and which are probably best left to competitive tournaments with a referee present. It's more about HOW you train, and less about WHAT you train in.
Just have some fun, stick with it, and the rest will follow.
On the street, grappling can leave you open to other attackers and ground game is always a bad idea. There are exceptions to this, and all styles focusing on grappling and throws have excellent techniques that allow you to lock up and disable an opponent while remaining somewhat mobile and able to stay alert to surroundings and able to react and defend.
Striking, at least the basics, is pretty much a necessity. Even just for training purposes.
Figure out your preference. Not everyone is a striker, not everyone is a grappler. Even two students from the same school will have differing approaches to a situation. At the end of the day, learning martial arts is a very personal path that we must all walk down in our own way. It's different for all of us, and there really isn't a "best art" or even a "best way" of doing it. Use your head in a life or death situation, experience and common sense will teach you what techniques are most effectively used in the street, and which are probably best left to competitive tournaments with a referee present. It's more about HOW you train, and less about WHAT you train in.
Just have some fun, stick with it, and the rest will follow.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
This question is like asking "I was looking at a new car, should I get a two-seater convertible, or a people mover?" Well, what are you wanting it for? There is no such thing as the best martial art, or the best martial art approach.... indeed, there is no such thing as a single reason or purpose for martial arts, or for training in them. One persons reasoning is particular to them, and has no relevance to any others. The problem is that people get the idea that their reasons for training, their values, are the same as everyone elses (after all, they're doing martial arts, just like me, so they must be doing it for the same reasons, yeah?). It just doesn't work that way. So we need a fair bit more information before we can really answer the question there.
Oh, and what Frank said. Throwing is a part of grappling (grappling simply means "the act of seizing or grabbing", as opposed to striking, which is "the act of imparting force by impact"). Grappling does not, nor has it ever, mean just ground work. That's only a small part of what the term refers to.
Oh, and what Frank said. Throwing is a part of grappling (grappling simply means "the act of seizing or grabbing", as opposed to striking, which is "the act of imparting force by impact"). Grappling does not, nor has it ever, mean just ground work. That's only a small part of what the term refers to.
IMO, grappling = throwing + ground game.
You can do throwing without grappling. You can't do grappling with throwing only.
A person who is good in
- throwing may not be good in ground game.
- ground game may be be good in throwing.
Example can be seen at 0.18.
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blindsage
Master of Arts
Just wanted to high light that for the confused ones.
Of course grappling doesn't automatically mean groundwork. Thus my statement that all grappling/throwing arts also have locks and holds that leave you in a position to stay relatively mobile and able to react and defend. 
But it is true that the MMA craze has many people thinking that grappling means going to the ground.
But it is true that the MMA craze has many people thinking that grappling means going to the ground.
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
It's a tough question to answer. If I asked you, "What should I buy at the grocery store?" You might ask me:
"What is that you're looking for (need or crave)?"
"Do you have any health restrictions?"
"How much money to have to spend?"
"How far are you willing to travel for a better store?"
But if you're asking me what I'm trying to decide on "having for dinner?" LOL I'd say, it looks like I'll still be having "left-overs" for a while. But if I were able to afford to start shopping in the MA-MART again, this is what I've already been window shopping at:
[Aikido+Tai Chi (Mon)] + [JKD/Savate+Wrestling (Tues/Thurs)] + [Wing Chun (Wed or Sat)] = 4 days per wk
OR
I found a nice Judo program at a community center that runs for nine weeks at a time (on Mondays). So I thought it would be nice to alternate between Aikido+Tai Chi and Judo continually on and off for the following schedule:
[Judo (9wks) then Aikido+Tai Chi (9wks) Mondays] + [BJJ on Mon/Wed (will not interfere with Monday late classes] + Muay Thai (Fri or Sat) = 3 days per wk
Anyways, good luck shopping!
As others have said, it'd be nice to know what your goals are. If you're doing strictly grappling or striking events, then chances are, you'll only need 1 or the other, of course, depending on the ruleset. For SD purposes, IMO, I'd say both would be worth looking at.
Throw then run like hell?
lklawson
Grandmaster
lklawson
Grandmaster
Sorry, but as someone with both striking and grappling skills, I have to take exception to that. "Grappling on the streets" is pretty much a guarantee any more and, frankly, if you don't know how to grapple, you're more likely to get injured in any of the myriad of ways that non-grapplers either worry about or posit that they can achieve.
For instance, "bashing your head on the pavement." The simple fact is that this is the most common way for someone to die during a "fist fight." They get tripped, knocked over (puches, kicks, rushes, body-checks, etc.), or simply trip. There are two things thence which prevents the person from "bashing the head." The first one is dumb luck. You wanna depend on that? The second is training and experience in taking falls and being taken down. That's what grappling teaches you.
Same goes for the dreaded eye-poke.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Sorry, but, again, I gotta disagree. First off, you frequently don't have any choice. Even before the ascendancy of grappling in the minds of UFC-wannabes (nearly all modern teens and 20-somethings), grappling was a "go to." When two wanna-be toughs would get into a idiotic fist fight, usually one would be more skilled (or lucky) and start to whoop up on the second. As a nearly instinctive defensive move the guy gett'n whooped would immediately go to clench because it effectively smothers the other's ability to punch well. From there it was common for the second to barnacle and drag the both of them to the ground. Thence it would be like the metaphoric "two squirrels trying to hump a football." All action and no effect. But when one of them actually knew even a little bit of newaza, then the end came quickly.
I also know about the usual complaints of multiples, HIV infected needles, and hot molten lava. Turns out that, statistically speaking, multiples isn't as common as is feared and, when it does occur, it's frequently in numbers which leaves the single defender pretty well Borked anyway unless they can deploy a firearm.
To summarize, grappling skills are an important part of "unarmed self defense" and should not be overlooked or excluded in preference to "striking" alone.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
chinto
Senior Master
well I know that the ER here has had people badly injured in bars when they went to the ground and one or the others friends put heavy boots to their friends 'attacker.' and while mugging is not common here as many are armed, when it has happened it has NOT been by single persons!
Once again going to the ground is not a good idea, that said grappling does not mean only doing that. I have said before and will again, Okinawan Karate, Kung fu, Philippine Martial arts systems , Kali, and most older systems including of course jujitsu have grappling in them!! some teach Grappling techniques earlier then others, but it is all there! These systems were developed to preserve the practitioner's and his families LIVES! There for they are very practical about getting the job done quickly and efficiently so they could get clear before others intervened. they also had to assume and saw it happen enough to know it was very likely some one would try to intervene against them. as to the hazards on the ground they are many as well.. but the human ones are the larger on to keep in mind.
Sorry but I have to point out that perhaps you haven't read my whole post, or that perhaps you didn't get what I was trying to say. Once again I will try to clarify. I stated that there are many techniques that are locks and holds (also known as grappling techniques) that allow you to stay mobile and alert. Able to defend against others if needed, while disabling any attacks from your current opponent.
I have unfortunately seen many fights firsthand. I've been in a few as well. Multiple attackers is a very common occurance.
My statement was that there are techniques that are great for self defense on the street, and some better left in the ring with a referee.i stand by this statement. If you clinch and aren't aware of what is going on around you, and it's obvious you have the upper hand, you arengoing to see this person's buddy choose to get into the mix and possibly hit you with a bottle or something. If you DO go to the ground you can and likely will get stomped. Groundwork is essential to train in order to get off the ground as quickly as possible.
An example of a grappling technique I have used in a real fight however, is a rear choke with my opponent bent backward and off balance. Bring them up on their toes and the can't do too much against you. I then used him as a shield between myself and his friend who had a knife as I tried to talk him down. The cops arrived shortly after and I have no doubt that this technique saved me from injury.
If I had just clinched this guy with my head burried, or tried a takedown or any number of techniques that are, as I said, best left to a one on one structured fight, I might not be here.
Yes grappling has its place and is very useful but use your head when picking your techniques for the situation.
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