Stop Saying “Traditional” Martial Arts
- Thread starter Seibukan Connection
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Is it really traditional though? The karate we practice today is mostly a relatively modern product of the changes made to it when brought to Japan. IMO one of the main reasons the term traditional martial arts is inaccurate.
This is a good starting point for Greco-Roman Wrestling and why it has become what it has become today.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
defining “traditional” comes up pretty often. For what it’s worth, I think traditional arts prioritize doing things as taught and coloring inside the lines. Styles that are less often considered traditional tend to welcome innovation and growth.
This is true but I think it's more to it than that. I think this reasoning exists because those before us already Colored outside of the line only to learn through experience that Coloring inside the line is the way that it should have been done in the first place. Long Fist strikes are in MMA are Slowly looking more and more like the Traditional Way of using that big wheel type punch. The first sign to watch for is Fist Formation. Then punching technique.
This is how a traditional long fist punch is taught. Fist formation: His thumb is not wrapped around the fingers.
Striking surface: He does not try to strike with the first knuckles which are normally used in this striking. This is a very traditional strike here for long fist. This is why Traditional Martial Artist Color inside the lines. It's not because it's traditional, but because those who came before us colored outside the lines and this is where the evolution of that big looping punch led. The only way this punch should evolve is from this starting point. Doing anything else will just be learning the hard lessons of the past and eventually reaching this same realization "This is the best way to throw this type of long fist punch."
One more thing about this image. The punching arm not only Strikes the face but it also pins down his opponents Arm. This will only be possible by using the Traditional Method of throwing this type of punch. It does not happen on the MMA Looping Overhand punch because of the angle of the elbow when it comes in.
Why does this matter? Simple. What if you miss then what?` Pinning of an arm will prevent an opponent from regainign balance. There are a lot of benefits to the traditional way of throwing the first.
Why does this matter? Simple. What if you miss then what?` Pinning of an arm will prevent an opponent from regainign balance. There are a lot of benefits to the traditional way of throwing the first.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Karate is an old product, modified by centuries of changes (detailed in my post #7). Modern karate represents the accumulated principles and changes containing both the old and newer ways: Like a river containing the water from its source and having newer water joining in from various streams on its journey to the sea.
And this is a good thing? Maybe. Perhaps the innovations are needed as the style (or often the teacher who does not deeply understand his style) has no strong traditional base to build upon so must look elsewhere for material/principles. Also, innovations are sometimes added just to add more stuff and make it seem attractive. My car was innovative having heads-up display, memory mirrors, wipers that start automatically, heated seats...Not only do these things not enhance my driving experience, but they often detract from it.
That’s why I said it wasn’t logical.
I don’t think many of us practise a true martial art (and fight system used in actual warfare or lethal combat) let alone an ancient one, but we have an irrational ‘feeling’ that we do and I think that’s absolutely fine and acceptable.
Pico’s thumb is wrapped around the fingers. Also, he uses boxing's first row of knuckles...
From open stance, Pico steps outside of De Jesus' lead foot which controls De Jesus' lead arm via positioning. Pico lands the overhand while De Jesus' foot is still in the air.
As I tried explaining before, Pico's entry and timing leads to the overhand KO. If Pico tried to clear, grab or harm De Jesus' lead arm, then the KO is less likely to happen. Because, his timing would have been late.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It’s just a thing.
You can't land on the first knuckles if the arm is fully extended. You would need to bend the elbow to land on those knuckles. He made impact with a straight arm. If you wrap your thumb around your finger with this punch then you be at high risk for breaking your thumb.
That's how the long fist punch is done I've said it many times before. Step off center at a 45 degree angle. I don't know what you are talking about grab or clear. That has nothing to do with the swinging arm. Neither does a KO punch. Technique is Technique. KO doesn't determine the structure of the technique.
I throw these type of punches all the time go hit a heavy bad the way you say then your can learn the hard way. You don't even use or train this type of punch.
The rear straight, cross and overhand fully extended are taught, trained and landed using the first row of knuckles which is evidenced on film. The video and frame show Pico landing the overhand with the thumb around the fingers and the first row of knuckles.
Again, there is a difference in entering, timing and positioning if Pico were to clear, grab or harm the lead arm first.
By ‘traditions’ do you mean rituals, perhaps?
Modern Karate tradition = shouting “BOW!” before bowing!
I’ve now taken to shouting “SHAKE HANDS” whilst offering my hand.
Here is a close up. The thumb is on top of the first finger. It's not wrapped around. This is what it looks like when the thumb is on the thumb is on the side of the pointing finger. It has a tendency to slide over the knuckle causing it to look like this.
Most people when they make make a fist the thum completely hides the knuckle of the pointing finger. As shown in this image. In the top image you can still see the knuck and that's because the thumb is pressing down on the side of it.
The darkest part of this image highlights the knuckles that he's striking with. The are the same knuckles that someone would use to knock on a door. I tell beginners that it's a "Knocking fist" because they naturally form the fist closets to how it's supposed to be used.
When people make a "knocking fist" most people will naturally place the thumb where it needs to be. 90% of the people I teach will have the thumb placement the way the fist should be made the other ten will have it like this lady, but all put the thum to the side. The reason they don't wrap the thumb is because it gets in the way of the "knock" this is the same issue when making a fist. When the thumb wraps the finger it gets in the way of the strike. The knucles that are striking the doore are the same knuckles that KO'ed the Fighter. Striking with these knuckles is the Traditional way to use long fist stirkes.
The MMA over hand turns the elbow up ward in order to strike with the knuckles that they normally strike with. You can always tell which is which because the MMA overhand hooks because of the knuckles that they are trying to strike with. They would never be able to pin their opponent's arm with their punch because the punching structure does not allow it. Punching like the image below also protects their thumb because it's not caught in between the fist and the target. Traditional way is not the same as the MMA. The traditional way will the fighter more option and an easier follow through. The MMA is a one shot only then reset. Traditional way will allow the fighter to throw this heavy punch as a 1 - 2 combo. Meaning I can shift to my left with this punch then slip to the right, to follow up with the same punch from the other side.
Attachments
How someone enters does not affect the fist structure for this punch. In Traditional Martial Arts it stays the same no matter the entry
ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
In the past, I've defined "traditional martial arts" as just being shorthand for the martial arts to which Westerners were introduced earlier on. In the U.S., that would have been things like gung fu, taekwondo, and karate. In the UK, I'd add judo to that list. Perhaps other things. I don't know, having immigrated in 1981. But certainly things like muay thai were big in the UK before they were here in the States.
All that aside though, and based on your comments, something else occurred to me. Your point about styles being unique to Okinawa, Japan, Korea, etc. versus boxing being boxing wherever people box. What occurred to me is the duality of some of those styles. Boxing has variances certainly, but I take your point that it's fundamentally similar. The difference, perhaps, is that boxing exists in application only. Performative boxing isn't really a thing the way that performative karate or gung fu is a thing. The performance IS the application.
Now, when karate, gung fu, taekwondo, etc. are being done in a sparring format, a lot of those stylistic differences you referenced tend to fade. The distinctions become about skill level more than stylistic convention (though not entirely). In a format where punching and kicking are permitted, styles tend to distill down to something that looks like kickboxing on a spectrum from skilled to miserable.
I think there's also an element of familiarity here as well. We're struck by the cultural transmission of martial arts because we're looking at it from outside. Every social convention, utterance, even things as basic as the numbers 1 through 10 feel exotic because they're in Japanese, Mandarin, Tagalog, etc. But, if you eliminate that idea of familiarity, is it really so different from a boxing trainer shouting "30 seconds left" in a round?
Boxing does have cultural roots and an evolution that can be traced. It's not dwelt upon by a lot of boxers, which perhaps marks the distinction. And I'm not attempting to talk anyone out of the distinction. But for the sake of discussion, there is a cultural tradition to be had there, if that's what interests a person.
Michael Poliakoff wrote an excellent book called Combat Sports in the Ancient World, which does a deep dive on (among other things) the boxing traditions of ancient Greece and Rome, the bases for much of the Western tradition. Boxing has certainly morphed over the centuries, but isn't the point of a tradition an awareness of where a thing comes from? Not necessarily that the thing remains unchanged over those centuries.
For the record, Dr. Poliakoff may not even be a martial artist. I don't know. But he's a scholar first and foremost. (Edit: He wrestled at some point, according to Wikipedia. Michael Poliakoff - Wikipedia. Though he's definitely primarily an academic. Interestingly--to me anyway--he's been faculty at two of the universities I've attended. That's probably more interesting to me than anyone else though.)
As you said of boxing, I'm not looking to demean karate. And I do see some distinctions to be made. But I also wonder whether the two are so very different. Perhaps it's more about the degree to which a culture around a style codifies that appeal to the past. East Asia, with its Confucian influences around filial piety and appeal to the past, reads differently than does Western boxing. But I think this discussion (albeit not in this case) too often devolves into a question of merit more than culture.
Brainstorming. Wouldn't worry about taking it as more than that.
In the lesser sense I think of them as Formalities. Ritual is a little different. Every Jow Ga school must have a shrine. The size of the shrine varies.. You'll find incense and food in these shrines along with photos of the lineage of teh schools teacher. As a kung Fu student if I go to another kung fu school then I must pay respect to that shrine by bowing. The only way that I can get out of that is if the school teacher says so. The shrine part is Ritual. The Bowing is Formality.
This bow is also formality and not ritual. Each bow has formal meaning. Depening on the type of Kung Fu school the bow may have a ritual one. Jow Ga Bows to my knowledge were all Formalities. There was no Ritual meaning behind them. We bowed when the entered and left the room, bow before sparring and after sparring. Do I bow to people before I spar? Sometimes. Sometimes I just tap gloves. But there's always some kind of gesture that is done. It just depends on who I'm sparring with. Eventually, I'll start bowing to Tony instead of Touching Gloves. I've been slacking off but I need to do it as a Jow Ga practitioner.
This is the bow that I would give you if I wanted to fight you. It's not a sign of respect.
Fungus
Black Belt
Bending the arm that way is how i always train that strike in the heavy bag at head level, works fine so that I can hit with seiken. I would now strike with the smaller knuckles on a head without good gloves, so even if we dont strike to head in sparring, I train these full force on the bag, I and I always try to envision the surface I am hitting. Which is nothing like a heavy bag. I sometimes do it with less power on a beam with soft padding, just to feel the feedback. If it feels evenly distributed I conclude its good, if the pain is sticking out somewhere, wrist, elbow etc.. then something with the linkage or alignment is likely wrong. Hitting hard with the weak knuckles feels not great.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
This is an important point and one that mainly held in karate prior to about 1920 at which time a new branch evolved, one intended for the general public. This came to be known as karate-do (as opposed to karate-jutsu). Rather than combat application oriented, karate-do concentrated on the general benefits the practice provided: Exercise, self-discipline and eventually sport (and even entertainment). This is largely the state of current karate, but schools that still emphasize the combat application jutsu still exist to a greater or lesser degree. Karate only became a sport fairly late in its evolution.
This is true, even more so since the time I first started sparring. Here we are talking sport, and sport has rules. One must conform to the rules of the sport. This means one's techniques and, as a result, strategy must be adapted to be successful within the rule set. This is why it is near impossible to tell one style from another in kumite/sparring competition as all must fight "the same way" to fit the rule set. There were less rules in the 1960's and start of the 1970's so it was a bit easier to notice the difference in styles. In a real sense, competition karate is its own style.
There was a method of boxing continuously passed down from ancient Greece, thru the Middle Ages to modern times? And even in the past few centuries did a nation's history and unique culture affect their boxing's purpose and nature? That is the kind of tradition I'm referring to. Sure, there is a specific culture in boxing like there can be a corporate culture, but these are self-contained and self-generated. They're not a reflection of the greater cultural history (other than from a sport or profit consideration) of a country. In this respect, boxing and karate are different. This is my only point and why I think boxing (which is a great skill and sport!) is not a TMA as most would see it.
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